The amount of influence that computer has over winning is extremely minimal (especially in MMORPGs.)

But yes, despite the incredibly tiny effect it's an undesirable form of pay2win.  That's part of why it's so important for games to account for older systems, particularly if they involve direct competition where computer performance might be a factor.

Imo, It isnt, it all coms down to what setting you are using. 

I play lots of FPS (Bf3, Wot and so on besides the normal MMo games, ) 

Old ex. take CS, ppl did uppgrade ther rigg for that game, then, turnd off all the grafix posible to get a smal edge (if i remember, som of the stuff in that game whent faster the more fps you got, (on/off Aiming whit scope on sniper)  

But in a MMo,, as long as i can get my lower FPS to 40+ on enygiven time (BLASTED SWTOR,,, 0 FPS ILUM LAGG FEST HATE ARGHHHH..:P) im happy:) 

If you pay 3000 for a gaming PC then your paying too much, as for broadband there will be certain cases where having a better service will make you the better player. Depends on the game.

Originally posted by Kyleran

One could argue that having better hardware/internet connections etc might give you a P2W edge, but it really just points out the folly of endlessly trying to make these games "fair" (outright hacking not withstanding)

Play your game, do the best you can, and accept the fact that sometimes you are going to lose through no real fault (or control) of your own.

In the end, they are just games.

 

Originally posted by paulytheb

Is a 3000 dollar gaming PC pay2win?

Just an honest question. In all the pay to win conversations going on around here I seldom see much mention of the PC's that some gamers have while most people have a Dell or a Wal Mart or Best Buy PC with a new video card maybe.

Is buying the best possible bandwith speed pay2win?

I know there are sever tiers here where I live with the roadrunner service.

 

If these things ARE NOT pay2win, then what is ?

Where is the line drawn?

 

 

Sorry if this aspect has been covered before. I must have missed it. I am however, genuinely curious where people think the line is drawn. It is not like you can go buy a thousand dollar better Xbox.

 

TYIA

 Technically it would be pay to play... sorry, couldn't help myself.  You do bring up an interesting angle though the issue is companies offering it as part of their game.

I prefer my Merc keyboard. For PvP, I change the video settings, always removing shadows. Play smart dude. That's Play 2 Win!

Originally posted by Smikis

someone who spent 1500 instead of 700 on random retailer craptastic and overpriced pc, will always have advantage, but it wont be due fps.. its due smarts.. and no not because someone earns 2k a month and another one earns 1k..

one is addept  in IT , another is clueless casual.. its like saying can sprinter outrun, hotdog eating champion..

Thing is, it's the clueless casual's that have the 3000 rigs, and the IT professionals that have the 700 pos.  So the Hotdog eating champion's wins the race and thinks they are hot shyte.

When ever you read someone talking about skill in a FPS game they are talking about 3000 vs 1000 rigs, and internet connection lag.  When ever you read about "Face Roll" is when a game takes the advantage out for a 3000 machine.

maybe it is P2W but its certainly not an MMO so its meaningless.

the computer exists in real life not in the virtual life.

You can always turn the settings down to get a good enough FPS, but having high latency can be a crippling disadvantage in action MMOs.

For example in AION, a person with sub 100 ms ping would actually attack/use skills significantly faster than someone with a 300 ms ping.   This pretty much made some classes unplayable in PvP (Assassin) if you didn't have a good enough ping to the server.

WOW !

Awesome responses all ! 

I see that people really have some different idea's on the question.  It is really awesome that everyone spoke their peace and didn't go flaming everyone else.

Special thanks to Quizzical for that awesome post. I got a little lost in some of the more technical aspects of what you said, but I do believe and will honor your opinion and bottom line.

If your machine is capable and you are playing at the correct settings, then a more expensive machine does not offer a significant advantage.

I can live with that. It was a fascinating thread to read. Thanks again all.

im sure its been said alot already, but a Nasa computer wont really give you a P2W situation over a person who bought a 5doller laptop from a pedler on the street. 

the only bonus a higher end system might have over a lower end system. is better graphics so a little higher FPS.  which unless you are playing something like Skyrim on insane settings wont make a lick of differance in a MMO. 

fps might give you a few seconds over a slower system but if your net is the exact same as the other user that wont help you at all. 

only thing that beats a system is the net connection. if your ping is 0 and theirs is 300 you might be better off but not really.

though a rig with eyinfity might give you a bonus for the 360* view :/ 

typical P2W is being able to spend say 10-20 bucks on an item mall to make a level 1 toon max level, where everyone else has to spend several hours to get there, you are basicly instantly leveled.  or being able to buy an item that gives you instant fatality in mortal combat from 1 button press. 

ya my examples are insane but meh generally how i rate P2W game models. lolol if they give you a get out of jail free card (monoplay anyone? :3) you can only buy to get out of jail.. then its P2W.

pc hardly given any advantage. hardware factors i think that give advantage are framerate, monitor response times, ping, mouse accuracy, peripheral input latency, sound/heaphones. 

you can buy pretty much the best for $1500 all up and the advantage is really only exists in FPS games. all you need is 120hz monitor, a decent mouse and a GPU/CPU that can get a 100+ FPS or so. anyone serious will play games on lower settings as it is easier to see everything that is important.

You could make an arguement for many things being "pay 2 win" it just depends on how you want to look at it.

Someone takes the 3000 dollars and gets the stuff they want to box a full group... In a pve game its an advantage because unlike a real "solo" player they never have to wait for a group, they never have to roll on "group loot"... so they can make more money than a standard player too.

Generally boxing doesn't work as well if you are talking about a pvp game... but I've seen a few people pull it off rather well in various games.

You could also say that people who buy certain "gamer" oriented controllers are paying 2 win...   In an action oriented pvp game if I can input faster/easier than you... and we are of equal skill... your delay kills you.    (think of a Razer Naga as a simple and easy example... but there are many examples that could be used).

To me its more in how you would look at the topic... dumping 3000 dollars into a box to simply play one account is not going to give you an advantage... what you are plugging into the box (that might be part of the $3000) might...  

I mean lol... if you are doing some kind of rendering for work and happen to game on the same system... then I could see having 3,000 into it.   If you were doing "work" while winning... I guess you could say... you were getting paid to win.   *.*

We can argue about the various advantages one person may have over another based on their gear, though in my opinion, better gear just means a better user experience, not a better chance to 'win' (at least in the context of MMO's).

However that argument is moot, because when we talk about pay-2-win in the MMO genre we're talking about the level or non-level playing field as provided by the developer. Some people have tried to make the argument that things outside the developers' control are the same as pay-2-win, such as the time you have available to play, give you an advantage over someone who has less time. These are ridiculous arguments. It would be like blaming Milton Bradley for making Connect Four an unfair game because one player has better anyltical/strategic skills than another player. The only sensible thing to discuss when talking about pay-2-win is whether the developer is providing a level playing field, or is willing to deliberately un-level that field for money.

Originally posted by paulytheb

Is a 3000 dollar gaming PC pay2win?

Just an honest question. In all the pay to win conversations going on around here I seldom see much mention of the PC's that some gamers have while most people have a Dell or a Wal Mart or Best Buy PC with a new video card maybe.

Is buying the best possible bandwith speed pay2win?

I know there are sever tiers here where I live with the roadrunner service.

 

If these things ARE NOT pay2win, then what is ?

Where is the line drawn?

 

 

Sorry if this aspect has been covered before. I must have missed it. I am however, genuinely curious where people think the line is drawn. It is not like you can go buy a thousand dollar better Xbox.

 

TYIA

You forgot to mention plugging your PC into a electric socket being p2w as well, rather than training guinea pigs to row a tiny boat that generated power to run the PC.

The OP's real comment is, online games are already p2w (assuming that paying for better bandwith and equipment, say 3 monitors for ex, give an advantage).  The money isn't going to the developer in those cases.  Those of you getting your panties into bunch due to developer p2w making it unfair are barking up the wrong tree.  To paraphrase.

I agree with him a little.  My main concern is with p2w is how it affects the developers.  Look at Eve...they could have made the cash shop reasonable...but nope, they went straight for 70 dollar monocles.  They were willing to fuck their game longterm for some cash short term.

I think buying expansions is pay 2 win. If you buy an expansion you can get better weapons and higher levels/more skills. Thats not fair, I pay my $15 a month to access ALL the content. Charging to level up and get better gear=pay2win.

Originally posted by bansan

The OP's real comment is, online games are already p2w (assuming that paying for better bandwith and equipment, say 3 monitors for ex, give an advantage).  The money isn't going to the developer in those cases.  Those of you getting your panties into bunch due to developer p2w making it unfair are barking up the wrong tree.  To paraphrase.

I agree with him a little.  My main concern is with p2w is how it affects the developers.  Look at Eve...they could have made the cash shop reasonable...but nope, they went straight for 70 dollar monocles.  They were willing to fuck their game longterm for some cash short term.

 

Actually a $70 isnt even pay2win cause thats just fluff. I read an article once about how devs found that offering only fluff items didn't generate enough income to make it feasible. But once they started offering items that give a slight advantage,profits improved considerabley.

Originally posted by grindery

 Good lord by that logic game developers are automatically the biggest culprits of pay 2 win. 

Yeah.... I'll just leave this here:

3k for a PC for game is overkill and a waste of money.... My PC has $1,300 worth of parts in the tower, and a 23" $110 on sale monitor.  I run all games on max no problems, 3k would be crazy unless you had tons of money sitting around to blow on it.