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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Virtual World Role Playing Games(VWRPGs)

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238 posts found
  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

 
OP  4/05/12 2:40:57 PM#81
Originally posted by Sythion
Originally posted by Cuathon

I dislike all these methods. Maybe it makes "better" games, but if you want a virtual world having illogical scaling ruins immersion. If its a virtual world and the monsters have to come from somewhere how do you scale? Why do they suddenly get more powerful?

Not every fight has to be perfectly tailored for 5 players at level 17 or 10 at level 25. There are so many obfuscating factors that a lot of times no one notices the "perfect" balancing anyways.

How about an alternative approach: enemy forces (army, raiding party, whatever) attack in numbers algorithmically determined by the playerbase. For instance if you are attacking city X, which has 100 residents 20 of which are logged on and 30 "visitors," then Y amount of monsters attacks. Maybe the higher level units will appear based on the level of these players as well.

 

You're really going to have to have something I think. Narius is right that if you have absolutely no balance you are very rarely going to have a fight where anything but numbers matters, which may invalidate a lot of your design choices.

In TTS the monsters entering the gameworld through the rents in dimensional fabric scale because more people causes weaker fabric. So the entire world is scaled to player numbers. But I intentionally do not want each fight to be scaled. I want people to decide where to make a new town or whether to defend this or that place, or where to station players or defenses. When does a resource become valuable enough to make a city in a high risk area? That kind of thing.

If you are constantly having massive stompings of enemies with huge zergs chances are you neglected some other task and it will bit you in the ass.

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

 
OP  4/05/12 2:42:31 PM#82
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Cuathon
 

I dislike all these methods. Maybe it makes "better" games, but if you want a virtual world having illogical scaling ruins immersion. If its a virtual world and the monsters have to come from somewhere how do you scale? Why do they suddenly get more powerful?

This obsession with "immersion" is just going to result in bad game design.

There is no reason why a world created to entertain needs to have everything set in a logical manner. Immersion is only good up to a point. There is no reason to take it so far.

Are you going to simulate the impact of food, digestive system, and farming too?

You insist on balancing the game at the lowest level. TTS is an RTS inspired game. You are balancing at higher levels. If you are balancing at the top level having monsters appear or disappear out of nowhere messes this up and removes the strategic elements like where to settle and where to explore and where to defend and so forth.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18727

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

4/05/12 2:49:11 PM#83
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Cuathon
 


I disagree. In many cases you won't have access to enough players to zerg. In other cases you might just lose. Losing should be part of games. You might be able to beat a mission even with few people with cleverness also. In some cases having too many people who are clueless might be a problem, maybe they mess up and draw nearby monsters or one of the monsters is a lich and they die in droves and get ressed as zombies you have to fight.

The point is that you have no control on the success rate.

What if 90% of the attempt are failure?

In almost ALL video games, success and failure rates are well tuned because that is one of most important aspects of game design.

In you system, you just have no control, no tuning over that.

If you have a 90% failure rate, players will just quit over time, and make it even harder for the remaining to be successful.

 

I dunno, I think you are describing my guilds first run at Rag in the Molten Core right after they beefed him up shortly after introduction.

We actually were failing at 100% rate at the start, and for the first 2 weeks (there were no guides then) yet most folks were willing to stick it out.

Sure, it got easier later on (especially as we got geared up) but still, don't sell the player base so short.  While I certainly would not want to lose at 90% all the time, its OK for some endevours to have a high failure rate, as long as the rewards go with it.

 

 

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Metentso

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 8/14/10
Posts: 1457

4/05/12 3:15:41 PM#84

I would say just VWG.

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

 
OP  4/05/12 3:17:20 PM#85
Originally posted by Metentso

I would say just VWG.

Are you assuming rpg in virtual world or are you having a category that doesn't only include rpgs?

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

 
OP  4/05/12 9:51:10 PM#86

It looks like VOW and VW are tied. Honestly just because it spells VOW I am really warming up to the second option. We don't have as many votes and my sandbox subforum poll but maybe we just need a few days for more people to vote.

I think I am gonna go ahead and start referring to VOWs in my TTS and other threads from now on.

  ArChWind

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/11
Posts: 482

4/06/12 12:07:34 AM#87

I call it a MOVW

http://www.reddit.com/r/KingdomsofWhren

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

 
OP  4/06/12 8:02:23 AM#88
Originally posted by ArChWind

I call it a MOVW

Massive Online Virtual World?

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19143

4/06/12 10:28:18 AM#89
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Cuathon
 


I disagree. In many cases you won't have access to enough players to zerg. In other cases you might just lose. Losing should be part of games. You might be able to beat a mission even with few people with cleverness also. In some cases having too many people who are clueless might be a problem, maybe they mess up and draw nearby monsters or one of the monsters is a lich and they die in droves and get ressed as zombies you have to fight.

The point is that you have no control on the success rate.

What if 90% of the attempt are failure?

In almost ALL video games, success and failure rates are well tuned because that is one of most important aspects of game design.

In you system, you just have no control, no tuning over that.

If you have a 90% failure rate, players will just quit over time, and make it even harder for the remaining to be successful.

 

I dunno, I think you are describing my guilds first run at Rag in the Molten Core right after they beefed him up shortly after introduction.

We actually were failing at 100% rate at the start, and for the first 2 weeks (there were no guides then) yet most folks were willing to stick it out.

Sure, it got easier later on (especially as we got geared up) but still, don't sell the player base so short.  While I certainly would not want to lose at 90% all the time, its OK for some endevours to have a high failure rate, as long as the rewards go with it.

 

 


Actually there are numbers. It is famous that Sunwell was seen by only like 1-2% of the player base, and Blizz drastically change the difficulty in raid after that.

The issue is not a short term failure rate. You know that you can progress by gearing up more. The encounter will become easier. So the difficulty or failure rate is going down, and there is hope to get it done.

In a game where there is no hope to win (let's say it is 5% forever), i highly doubt if a large enough pop will stick around. Sure, there are some small minority who will do it, but that is not the point.

In fact, even in today's raid, Blizz has to reduce the difficulty because they are seeing many giving up.

  Apraxis

Elite Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1417

4/06/12 11:19:24 AM#90
Originally posted by GeezerGamer
I was just discussing FPS's and how they don't belong with MMOs because FPSs have shorter lifespans. And it's largely due to this fact. All players are equal. So it becomes about playing out the content. I know I will be shot for saying this, But I think this is going to be one of the biggest issues ANet faces with GW2. But that's obviously a different topic and another time.

It makes me thing of something you said. Because it's ironic. In EVE, the ONLY factor that distinguishes you from anyone else is the amount of time you have an active account. All distinction is assigned over time.

What distinguishes you from anyone else in EVE, are the choices you made (as opposed to someone who started the same time you did) and also how you built your world.

It's not character power. It's what you build.

Ok, this is competely Off-Topic, but nevertheless. You are wrong here Geezer, because Online or Multiplayer FPS are as long around as any MMORPG. Just look at Battlefield, it is around since 2002.(and there is not a lot of difference between the old Battlefield 1942 and the new one Battlefield 3), they just release updated versions(mostly only graphical), because of the lack of a subscription. Or look at Counter Strike how long that is around.

Basicly, if a game goes online, and it is mostly about player interaction(or even more about player vs player) it has almost unlimited lifespan, because the gameplay(content) will not change a lot, just the appearence. Singleplayer FPS are a different breed.

OnTopic: As long as there is somewhere Virtual World in it, everyone interested will know what it is about. And i always thought Virtual World is a better term, but you should also include anyware G for Game/or Gaming, because we dont talk about Second Life, or do we? And O for Online wouldnt be that bad either. So VWORPG or VOWRPG are fine and just of the look of it i would prefer VWORPG.

  ArChWind

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/11
Posts: 482

4/06/12 11:25:30 AM#91
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by ArChWind

I call it a MOVW

Massive Online Virtual World?

Yes, I started making one about 8 years ago but gave up since it is beyond my years left to do it.

http://www.reddit.com/r/KingdomsofWhren

  Apraxis

Elite Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1417

4/06/12 11:52:33 AM#92
Originally posted by nariusseldon
  I doubt your claim.

As long as you have combat, there is DPS. And DPS is a number that can be min-max.

DPS does NOT depend on whether you are in an instance, or in an open world. It does NOT depend on whether the boss is killed and dead, and you kill a new one, or you are kiling the same one again.

Sure, there are sub-cat like DPS when moving, AOE vs single target. But numbers are numbers. Unless you don't have damage in your game, DPS is a relevant stat. As long as you have a relevant stat, people can min-max it.

It is my considered opinion that you should go almost competely away from any kind of vertical progression. So no DPS increase, no HP increase it is just not needed.

A sword does 5 dmg with lvl1 and with lvl100(if you need lvl at all), as same as Hit Points, a lvl one got 50 HP as the lvl 100. The difference should just be horizontal progression, which means, that the lvl100 will have a whole lot of abbilities, be it combat wise or non combat wise in comparsion to the lvl one. It is just unnatural, and it is overtime gamebreaking.

You just seperate the community of a virtual world, if you seperate DPS and HP so extremely between noobs and veterans.

Look at old UO(ok.. i know, i always have a lil UO example on my hands) there HP gain was extremely limited, and as i said, i think it should even more limited. In UO HP was completely dependent on your Stat Strength and Strength was limited to 100. So max HP was basicly 100. As much as i remember you got 3 Stats and overall you were limited to 200. So as example one Charakter got:

Warrior: 100 Strength 60 Dexterity 40 Intelligence

Mage: 80 Strength 40 Dexterity 80 Intelligence

so there is not a lot of difference in HP. And a noob started with 100 Points usually 33,33,33.

With that in mind it is also easier to design a world, because you dont need to scale the mobs that much, and the complete world remains accesible.

And about Big mobs and number. Is it really that hard? More numbers mean less loot for everyone. So if you beat the big ass mob with just a small bunch of ppl your plunderage is so much more rewarding.

As example the open World Dragon in DAoC. You could of course beat him with 60+ ppl. But it was so much more rewarding to kill him with 8 Paladins, and the bounty was really worth it. With 60+ it wasnt worth the effort, at least in comparision.

But its just the rambling of an old UO fart. (who is really sick of all the progression sickness since EQ, because hell yes, not WoW was the devil actually it was EQ (or DikuMud) ;))

 

PS: And sorry for my extreme Editing... but i just suck in english at times.. foreign languages are never as handy as your mother tongue

 

  Apraxis

Elite Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1417

4/06/12 12:12:19 PM#93
Originally posted by Kyleran

Now, as far as features I think a VWRPG should have, I personally feel it has to have some sort of properly designed player conflict system.

I know, there will be people who argue that an all PVE system is fine, and I am not advocating that all virtual worlds must be lawless FFA, full loot games.

But they should really have some area for player conflict, a la EVE's 0.0 space, DAOC's frontiers perhaps, but I really think virtual worlds have to provide a place for players to compete against each other.

As someone else said, consequences should be a core feature.  It should hurt to lose, and therefore players should try very hard not to lose in the process of winning. 

Of course, this restricts one's ability to take wild risks, but that's how it should be, big risk should result sometimes in great rewards, but most times end up in failure.

Perhaps I favor VW's that are more realistic, and I suppose there are those who would prefer they don't come with the limitations of real life, so there is some lattitude in design here.  (for example, no need to program in bathroom mechanics into my games, I get enough of that in RL) 

But weight limits would be nice, bothers the heck out of me when characters can run around with a metric ton or two of gear and stuff, it really should be based on your character stats like in old school RPG's.

In the end, I think VW's must force (yes, I used that word) their players to make choices, and those choices must have consequences, both positive and negative.

 

 

i can just emphasise this. And it is completely not about combat pvp or about ganking/griefing or what ever. It is foremost about economicly balance. Simple put, if every resource is easy to obtain, the same resource will be more or less worthless. In a pve environment the only determinator is Time, and time in a virtual world is unlimited, at least for a lot of ppl. So every resource, every valuable item/object is not valuable, it is just determined from time.

If the environment is hostile, where it is hard to obtain resources, and on the same time, where your risk your own resources to obtain more resources, the resources gain a lot of value, and withit every item/object in the world.

This lesson was really learned in UO(before/after Trammel) and validated in EvE. But, despite the FFA hardcore crowd, i dont think every inch of the world have to be free for all pvp, just where valuable resources are available. And you could think of some kind of territory control system, where the inner destrict is more or less safe(maybe even hard coded safe zone) but can be switched to a pvp area. Think of different factions with realm borders, where the border zone is contested area, and the inner zones are pvp free, but where the border zone could change and move forward or backward, with maybe only the main district for every faction unable to conquer. So there are a lot of possibilities to implement something like that without becoming a complete mess, where just the pvp players have their fun.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19143

4/06/12 12:40:54 PM#94
Originally posted by Apraxis
Originally posted by nariusseldon
  I doubt your claim.

As long as you have combat, there is DPS. And DPS is a number that can be min-max.

DPS does NOT depend on whether you are in an instance, or in an open world. It does NOT depend on whether the boss is killed and dead, and you kill a new one, or you are kiling the same one again.

Sure, there are sub-cat like DPS when moving, AOE vs single target. But numbers are numbers. Unless you don't have damage in your game, DPS is a relevant stat. As long as you have a relevant stat, people can min-max it.

It is my considered opinion that you should go almost competely away from any kind of vertical progression. So no DPS increase, no HP increase it is just not needed.

A sword does 5 dmg with lvl1 and with lvl100(if you need lvl at all), as same as Hit Points, a lvl one got 50 HP as the lvl 100. The difference should just be horizontal progression, which means, that the lvl100 will have a whole lot of abbilities, be it combat wise or non combat wise in comparsion to the lvl one. It is just unnatural, and it is overtime gamebreaking.

You just seperate the community of a virtual world, if you seperate DPS and HP so extremely between noobs and veterans.

Look at old UO(ok.. i know, i always have a lil UO example on my hands) there HP gain was extremely limited, and as i said, i think it should even more limited. In UO HP was completely dependent on your Stat Strength and Strength was limited to 100. So max HP was basicly 100. As much as i remember you got 3 Stats and overall you were limited to 200. So as example one Charakter got:

Warrior: 100 Strength 60 Dexterity 40 Intelligence

Mage: 80 Strength 40 Dexterity 80 Intelligence

so there is not a lot of difference in HP. And a noob started with 100 Points usually 33,33,33.

With that in mind it is also easier to design a world, because you dont need to scale the mobs that much, and the complete world remains accesible.

And about Big mobs and number. Is it really that hard? More numbers mean less loot for everyone. So if you beat the big ass mob with just a small bunch of ppl your plunderage is so much more rewarding.

As example the open World Dragon in DAoC. You could of course beat him with 60+ ppl. But it was so much more rewarding to kill him with 8 Paladins, and the bounty was really worth it. With 60+ it wasnt worth the effort, at least in comparision.

But its just the rambling of an old UO fart. (who is really sick of all the progression sickness since EQ, because hell yes, not WoW was the devil actually it was EQ (or DikuMud) ;))

 

PS: And sorry for my extreme Editing... but i just suck in english at times.. foreign languages are never as handy as your mother tongue

 

I suppsoe you *can* take away progression. But progression is a huge reason why many play these games. That is a reason I don't like UO. Aside from the horrible PK, lack of clear, and compelling progression is another reason.

 

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

 
OP  4/06/12 12:46:16 PM#95
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Apraxis
Originally posted by nariusseldon
  I doubt your claim.

As long as you have combat, there is DPS. And DPS is a number that can be min-max.

DPS does NOT depend on whether you are in an instance, or in an open world. It does NOT depend on whether the boss is killed and dead, and you kill a new one, or you are kiling the same one again.

Sure, there are sub-cat like DPS when moving, AOE vs single target. But numbers are numbers. Unless you don't have damage in your game, DPS is a relevant stat. As long as you have a relevant stat, people can min-max it.

It is my considered opinion that you should go almost competely away from any kind of vertical progression. So no DPS increase, no HP increase it is just not needed.

A sword does 5 dmg with lvl1 and with lvl100(if you need lvl at all), as same as Hit Points, a lvl one got 50 HP as the lvl 100. The difference should just be horizontal progression, which means, that the lvl100 will have a whole lot of abbilities, be it combat wise or non combat wise in comparsion to the lvl one. It is just unnatural, and it is overtime gamebreaking.

You just seperate the community of a virtual world, if you seperate DPS and HP so extremely between noobs and veterans.

Look at old UO(ok.. i know, i always have a lil UO example on my hands) there HP gain was extremely limited, and as i said, i think it should even more limited. In UO HP was completely dependent on your Stat Strength and Strength was limited to 100. So max HP was basicly 100. As much as i remember you got 3 Stats and overall you were limited to 200. So as example one Charakter got:

Warrior: 100 Strength 60 Dexterity 40 Intelligence

Mage: 80 Strength 40 Dexterity 80 Intelligence

so there is not a lot of difference in HP. And a noob started with 100 Points usually 33,33,33.

With that in mind it is also easier to design a world, because you dont need to scale the mobs that much, and the complete world remains accesible.

And about Big mobs and number. Is it really that hard? More numbers mean less loot for everyone. So if you beat the big ass mob with just a small bunch of ppl your plunderage is so much more rewarding.

As example the open World Dragon in DAoC. You could of course beat him with 60+ ppl. But it was so much more rewarding to kill him with 8 Paladins, and the bounty was really worth it. With 60+ it wasnt worth the effort, at least in comparision.

But its just the rambling of an old UO fart. (who is really sick of all the progression sickness since EQ, because hell yes, not WoW was the devil actually it was EQ (or DikuMud) ;))

 

PS: And sorry for my extreme Editing... but i just suck in english at times.. foreign languages are never as handy as your mother tongue

 

I suppsoe you *can* take away progression. But progression is a huge reason why many play these games. That is a reason I don't like UO. Aside from the horrible PK, lack of clear, and compelling progression is another reason.

 


I hate to agree with Narious but I do. Progression is good.

I also don't believe in horizontal progression, I think it is a myth. Any progression is vertical.

 

  Apraxis

Elite Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1417

4/06/12 1:22:02 PM#96

Maybe then i should label another acronym for a sub sub genre. VWORPGwoVP (without Vertical Progression) :)

Because i really cant stand deep vertical progression i think it almost destroyes any game, and even more Virtual Worlds.

I played a very long time MMORPGs, and the things on the genre apart from Themepark/Sandbox, which bugged me the most  were foremost contingent on progression.

  • The level gap between veteran and noob players, playing with a friend, who just dont have the time to play that much is impossible.
  • Areas of the world become abandond. Less reusability of conent. The world becomes incredibly smaller, because just a very limited part of it is for your level available.
  • Balance problem between PvE and PvP, further problems of low level killing in PvP and so on
  • grind -> forced to progress for the sake of it, not because it is fun, or because you are interested in that gameplay element
  • ...
But, however, for each their own. I personally could never imagine to play a Virtual World with a deep vertical progression. But thats me.

 

 

  Sythion

Novice Member

Joined: 6/30/11
Posts: 425

4/06/12 1:24:36 PM#97

And vertical progression is just an illusion where numbers get bigger, and ratios stay the same.

Real progression should be about how the players see their characters, not how big their numbers are. Narrative has a lot to do with this, though there are other factors too. IMO, horizontal progression is more real than vertical progression, because I actually feel like I'm growing and changing.

Bigger numbers just don't do it for me anymore.

  Apraxis

Elite Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1417

4/06/12 1:27:01 PM#98

Yeap Sythion.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19143

4/06/12 1:36:23 PM#99
Originally posted by Sythion

And vertical progression is just an illusion where numbers get bigger, and ratios stay the same.

Real progression should be about how the players see their characters, not how big their numbers are. Narrative has a lot to do with this, though there are other factors too. IMO, horizontal progression is more real than vertical progression, because I actually feel like I'm growing and changing.

Bigger numbers just don't do it for me anymore.

No true.

Example. In WOW, you can go back to do older content, while over-gearing it. The additional power really shows. When you can two-man a L70 raid, when you have to do it with 10 people before, the power of progression shows.

And people do that regularly (including me) for mounts, and trasmorg gear, so don't say there is no reward from doing so.

Heck, even occasionallly running older heroics with current raid tier gear is fun. You can see bosses dying a LOT faster.

Sure it may not doing it for YOU. It certainly does it for many others including me.

  Sythion

Novice Member

Joined: 6/30/11
Posts: 425

4/06/12 1:39:18 PM#100
Originally posted by nariusseldon

No true.

Example. In WOW, you can go back to do older content, while over-gearing it. The additional power really shows. When you can two-man a L70 raid, when you have to do it with 10 people before, the power of progression shows.

And people do that regularly (including me) for mounts, and trasmorg gear, so don't say there is no reward from doing so.

Heck, even occasionallly running older heroics with current raid tier gear is fun. You can see bosses dying a LOT faster.

Sure it may not doing it for YOU. It certainly does it for many others including me.

To each their own. I think we're at a crest with vertical progression in all RPGs, including PnP. In the next few years, things will change dramatically.

We'll see how things go with GW2 and Diablo3 (which actually has a lot of horizontal progression to it).

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