Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by RefMinor
For me a VWRPG term is needed because half the games released now are lobby based CORPGs but they have taken the name MMORPG. For me a virtual world can be themepark or sandbox, but it needs to be a world, eg vanilla wow was a fairly virtual world (instanced dungeons though) modern wow is much less so, SWTOR and Diablo not at all.

Basically this. Its just impossible to set the terms of a discussion because of how much mmorpg has expanded as a definition.

Honestly Quirhid should be happy. No more posts arguing over mmorpg, and if he sees VWRPG he knows that he has no interest in participating in our discussion.

 

Sorry for so many posts, I decided not to respond to 5 other ones since I realized I had already done so many.

Naw, he's never happy, perpetual snarkiness is his normal state of being. 

But you are right, the original term of MMORPG was fairly narrowly defined by the design of the games that were out on the market at the time. 

But the market evolved, games with different mechanics/styles started coming out, and they all were swept under the same umbrella term which of course has lead to constant disagreement over what a "real" MMORPG is all about, or what a person means when they are talking about a MMORPG designed in a certain manner

So I don't view having additional labels as a bad thing, as you mentioned it certainly does make it easier to narrow down the conversation to the point in hand.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by RefMinor
For me a VWRPG term is needed because half the games released now are lobby based CORPGs but they have taken the name MMORPG. For me a virtual world can be themepark or sandbox, but it needs to be a world, eg vanilla wow was a fairly virtual world (instanced dungeons though) modern wow is much less so, SWTOR and Diablo not at all.

Basically this. Its just impossible to set the terms of a discussion because of how much mmorpg has expanded as a definition.

Honestly Quirhid should be happy. No more posts arguing over mmorpg, and if he sees VWRPG he knows that he has no interest in participating in our discussion.

 

Sorry for so many posts, I decided not to respond to 5 other ones since I realized I had already done so many.

Naw, he's never happy, perpetual snarkiness is his normal state of being. 

But you are right, the original term of MMORPG was fairly narrowly defined by the design of the games that were out on the market at the time. 

But the market evolved, games with different mechanics/styles started coming out, and they all were swept under the same umbrella term which of course has lead to constant disagreement over what a "real" MMORPG is all about, or what a person means when they are talking about a MMORPG designed in a certain manner

So I don't view having additional labels as a bad thing, as you mentioned it certainly does make it easier to narrow down the conversation to the point in hand.

 

Labels are like any other tool. They can be used for good or evil. Now the only question is can we make w/e term we decide on widespread enough to have meaning outside of mmorpg.com. Even if it was useful here if it doesn't spread we still have the same hassle elsewhere.

I don't even want it to be mega specific. Just to deal with a few key features.

I guess the shortest summary would be:

Persistence-Changes made by players are not reset by the game

Consequence-What you do changes the world and affects yourself and other players

Interdependence-There is a significant if not all consuming social/politcal/economic element

Deviance-In playstyles you filthy gutterbrains: crafting, adventuring, merchanting, entertaining, magicking, etc

Originally posted by Kyleran

I agree, labels are helpful, myself I feel that GW2 has either refined or redefined the MMO space [...] since they've more or less stripped out character progression/distinction to the point that everyone quite easily ends up more or less the same, much like a FPS.

 

Progression != Distinction.

Bejeweled = FPS...?

So I added a poll with the 3 names I saw mentioned in the thread.

I kinda wanna vote number 2 just because VOW.

But VWRPG is what I was obviously thinking originally.

I wanna see if anyone else comes up with a different idea and see what people's opinions are before I make my actual vote.

Originally posted by Sythion

Originally posted by Kyleran

I agree, labels are helpful, myself I feel that GW2 has either refined or redefined the MMO space [...] since they've more or less stripped out character progression/distinction to the point that everyone quite easily ends up more or less the same, much like a FPS.

 

Progression != Distinction.

Bejeweled = FPS...?

Its more that progression allows for distinction. Except in the WoW preset class model where there are only 3 viable builds.

I think in a virtual world where you could be a poison/acid/explosives alchemist and a trap user, or a Frost only mage or something specific or hybridish and where progression is vertical but alinear that there are far more opportunities for distinction.

Especially if you do something like be a frost mage dress in frost dragon skin and bones or something. Both capability and presentation would offer distinctiveness.

Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by Larsa

The term MMORPG is fine and can stay as it was.

We should reather call the games that only pretend to be MMORPGs (or MMOs) what they are: SMOGs, small multiplayer online games. And I like to think about them as SMOG anyway. :)

Sorry, please continue. :)

 

Unfortunately I think the battle for MMORPGs has already been lost, even this site has a Diablo 3 forum

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/738/The-Repopulation.html

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/494/DUST-514.html

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/572/ArcheAge.html

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/597/Dominus.html

One of these things is not like the other.

One of these things just doesn't belong.

Im all for that but i dont want someworld where players whole day long chat nonsens, but it prolly will happen if you want freedom and for me freedom is more importend then the nonsens chat so be it then hehe.

I would add a world that have alot to explore with beautifull habitat but no combat or silly quests just explore a huge world and craft or change things would be awesome.

Or find rare animals rare places. Secret caves with exotic animal life.

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by Larsa

The term MMORPG is fine and can stay as it was.

We should reather call the games that only pretend to be MMORPGs (or MMOs) what they are: SMOGs, small multiplayer online games. And I like to think about them as SMOG anyway. :)

Sorry, please continue. :)

 

Unfortunately I think the battle for MMORPGs has already been lost, even this site has a Diablo 3 forum

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/738/The-Repopulation.html

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/494/DUST-514.html

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/572/ArcheAge.html

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/597/Dominus.html

One of these things is not like the other.

One of these things just doesn't belong.

I think they could have Dust because EvE but as a large EvE subforum as opposed to its own, or maybe EvE and Dust as the forum name.

Or lost ancient civillisations to be discovered. A world like MYST but with other players ingame so you can organise expeditions to strange unexplored worlds to discover and maybe start a new settlement. A kind of SKYRIM world but non agressive just for the building crafting exploreration.

Originally posted by Classicstar

Or lost ancient civillisations to be discovered. A world like MYST but with other players ingame so you can organise expeditions to strange unexplored worlds to discover and maybe start a new settlement. A kind of SKYRIM world but non agressive just for the building crafting exploreration.

They had online Myst for a while but I don't think it did well financially.

Oh, can I play?!

Cats are now called Dogs

Dogs are now called Potatoes

Sandbox is now called Mudbox

Themepark is now called Thumbpark

I like this game, weeeee!

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by Larsa

The term MMORPG is fine and can stay as it was.

We should reather call the games that only pretend to be MMORPGs (or MMOs) what they are: SMOGs, small multiplayer online games. And I like to think about them as SMOG anyway. :)

Sorry, please continue. :)

 

Unfortunately I think the battle for MMORPGs has already been lost, even this site has a Diablo 3 forum

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/738/The-Repopulation.html

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/494/DUST-514.html

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/572/ArcheAge.html

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/597/Dominus.html

One of these things is not like the other.

One of these things just doesn't belong.

I think they could have Dust because EvE but as a large EvE subforum as opposed to its own, or maybe EvE and Dust as the forum name.

Dust doesn't belong on this site. Yes, it has an overlap into EVE. But What's CCP going to do, a year after Dust launches and the FPSers are off to the next game? FPS games do not survive like MMOs do. I don't see this lasting. Dust will die very soon and CCP will have isolate it from EVE. Or maybe they won't isolate it but will have to minimize it's effect in the EVE universe. Within a year after release Dust will be insignificant.

It will hav ehte fact that the EVEers will have a place to go do FPS, but will that draw keep it going on its own?

Originally posted by Kreedz

Oh, can I play?!

 

 

Cats are now called Dogs

Dogs are now called Potatoes

Sandbox is now called Mudbox

Themepark is now called Thumbpark

 

 

I like this game, weeeee!

Actually the proper analogy is to specify breeds instead of just saying dog. Ie VWs are terriers and coops are greyhounds. Mud is almost as fun as sand anyways :)

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by Larsa

The term MMORPG is fine and can stay as it was.

We should reather call the games that only pretend to be MMORPGs (or MMOs) what they are: SMOGs, small multiplayer online games. And I like to think about them as SMOG anyway. :)

Sorry, please continue. :)

 

Unfortunately I think the battle for MMORPGs has already been lost, even this site has a Diablo 3 forum

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/738/The-Repopulation.html

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/494/DUST-514.html

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/572/ArcheAge.html

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/597/Dominus.html

One of these things is not like the other.

One of these things just doesn't belong.

I think they could have Dust because EvE but as a large EvE subforum as opposed to its own, or maybe EvE and Dust as the forum name.

Dust doesn't belong on this site. Yes, it has an overlap into EVE. But What's CCP going to do, a year after Dust launches and the FPSers are off to the next game? FPS games do not survive like MMOs do. I don't see this lasting. Dust will die very soon and CCP will have isolate it from EVE. Or maybe they won't isolate it but will have to minimize it's effect in the EVE universe. Within a year after release Dust will be insignificant.

 

It will hav ehte fact that the EVEers will have a place to go do FPS, but will that draw keep it going on its own?

That's an interesting theory. CCP would be in deep shit if that happened.

I hope not, CCP is one of the only companies who do cool stuff.

Originally posted by Sythion

Originally posted by Kyleran

I agree, labels are helpful, myself I feel that GW2 has either refined or redefined the MMO space [...] since they've more or less stripped out character progression/distinction to the point that everyone quite easily ends up more or less the same, much like a FPS.

 

Progression != Distinction.

Bejeweled = FPS...?

Actually, in a traditional MMORPG, Progression does in fact equal Distinction, always has, always will.

In almost every MMORPG I've ever played, there were players who had progressed in character power (be it in combat skills, crafting etc) to levels far beyond anything I'd ever hope to achieve.

Yet I had my own personal success stories, in DAOC I was in the top 6 Spellcrafters on my server for quite a while and one of the few that would take public work.  (and one of the very view who could craft certain items)

The only relationship I was making with GW2 to FPS is that in a FPS bascially all players are equal in terms of character power, and have access to the same set of gear and abilities.  The skill in them comes from actual player intelligence, understanding, and hand eye coordination, and GW2 seems to be much more akin to this system.

And no, Bejewled != FPS.

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by Kreedz

Oh, can I play?!

 

 

Cats are now called Dogs

Dogs are now called Potatoes

Sandbox is now called Mudbox

Themepark is now called Thumbpark

 

 

I like this game, weeeee!

Actually the proper analogy is to specify breeds instead of just saying dog. Ie VWs are terriers and coops are greyhounds. Mud is almost as fun as sand anyways :)

Oh Oh...MUD wrestling.....I'm in.

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by Kreedz

Oh, can I play?!

 

 

Cats are now called Dogs

Dogs are now called Potatoes

Sandbox is now called Mudbox

Themepark is now called Thumbpark

 

 

I like this game, weeeee!

Actually the proper analogy is to specify breeds instead of just saying dog. Ie VWs are terriers and coops are greyhounds. Mud is almost as fun as sand anyways :)

Oh Oh...MUD wrestling.....I'm in.

If there was mud wrestling everyone would roll a female character :)

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

 

If there was mud wrestling everyone would roll a female character :)

Then we have to make sure the game has no Undead, Dwarves, Tauren, Pandas....you get the point.

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

 

If there was mud wrestling everyone would roll a female character :)

Then we have to make sure the game has no Undead, Dwarves, Tauren, Pandas....you get the point.

We are wildly offtopic so last post, I would hate to mud wrestle with a dwarf beard. So much cleaning, especially if it dries.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Sythion

Originally posted by Kyleran

I agree, labels are helpful, myself I feel that GW2 has either refined or redefined the MMO space [...] since they've more or less stripped out character progression/distinction to the point that everyone quite easily ends up more or less the same, much like a FPS.

 

Progression != Distinction.

Bejeweled = FPS...?

Actually, in a traditional MMORPG, Progression does in fact equal Distinction, always has, always will.

In almost every MMORPG I've ever played, there were players who had progressed in character power (be it in combat skills, crafting etc) to levels far beyond anything I'd ever hope to achieve.

Yet I had my own personal success stories, in DAOC I was in the top 6 Spellcrafters on my server for quite a while and one of the few that would take public work.  (and one of the very view who could craft certain items)

The only relationship I was making with GW2 to FPS is that in a FPS bascially all players are equal in terms of character power, and have access to the same set of gear and abilities.  The skill in them comes from actual player intelligence, understanding, and hand eye coordination, and GW2 seems to be much more akin to this system.

And no, Bejewled != FPS.

 

 

I was just discussing FPS's and how they don't belong with MMOs because FPSs have shorter lifespans. And it's largely due to this fact. All players are equal. So it becomes about playing out the content. I know I will be shot for saying this, But I think this is going to be one of the biggest issues ANet faces with GW2. But that's obviously a different topic and another time.

It makes me thing of something you said. Because it's ironic. In EVE, the ONLY factor that distinguishes you from anyone else is the amount of time you have an active account. All distinction is assigned over time.

What distinguishes you from anyone else in EVE, are the choices you made (as opposed to someone who started the same time you did) and also how you built your world.

It's not character power. It's what you build.