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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Is the MMO genre being blended into others, like what happened to RPGs?

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144 posts found
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20673

4/08/12 12:20:21 PM#101
Originally posted by Cecropia

 

No.

The "world" of Warcraft has long been dead. If you cannot see that, then you must be blind. Having the luxury of choice can a good thing, but in the case of WOW and fast travel, having the option has been devastating to the "world" aspect of the game.

Instances and worlds do not go hand in hand. Instances are like "The Nothing", they simply wipe out the world.

"Dead" only means that few people are in the world. SO? The world is still there. For the few, you can still explore it.

Last time I check, i don't need anyone ELSE in the world when i explore it.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20673

4/08/12 12:23:56 PM#102
Originally posted by Cuathon

You are obviously wrong.

1) The most SUCCESSFUL dev is doing it.

2) Check the "explorer" achievement, there are people using it .. not a majority, but some.

You seems to argue that if a dev is catering to the needs of a minority of players, he is a "moron". Then i have to ask what YOU are wasting your life on, making a game few will play?

I am making a game which focuses on the world aspect of mmorpgs. Not shoving a half done shit fest implementation into a game which doesn't give a fuck abour mmoness but only chases monies.

No. They chase what entertains their players, as opposed to some idealistic world sim that may or may not be fun. And true, very few really cares about "MMOness" ... why would one sacrifice good "game-ness" because of that?

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20673

4/08/12 12:26:58 PM#103
Originally posted by FrostWyrm
Originally posted by Beatnik59
 
Originally posted by nariusseldon

 

Fair point, and this is the reason why I expect this genre is going to move ever further away from the "massive multiplayer" aspect of MMOs.  Diablo 3 is a perfect example of games that have an "MMO-like" flavor, without being an MMO.

The only direction publishers can go to make the games more accessable at this point is to take out or water down all the remaining MMO elements: the persistant world, the guilds, the multiple users: make it a chatroom/lobby and put all the content in our own user created instances.  Because what Satre said is true: "Hell is other people," and the only way we can take away the remaining "Hell" is to take away the "other people": the ones we don't know, the ones we don't care to know, and the ones we don't like.

This is what I dont get. Massively multiplayer is part of the genre. Why are people entering this genre if this is not what they want in a game? Why, when genres that already satisfy their wants exist, do people insist on coming into this one and mutating it to fit their own desires?

If you don't like crafting, socializing, traveling, exploration, or what have you, why not play a genre that doesn't have these things rather than complain about one that does?

Of course, that is why Diablo is going to my main game for a while. And until there are other games with good small-group co-op content, with lots of good scripted dungeon mechanics, and many classes, MMOs will have to do.

 

Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Beatnik59

 

Apt observations.

From a player's point of view, there is really no reason to tolerate anything in an entertainment product.

This is the heart of the entire problem. You don't need to be playing a game that involves other people when you believe everything should be all about you. This is something you need to come to grips with.

What problem? I don't have to come to grip with ANYTHING. It is working fine for me. I don't have to tolerate anyone. I choose when i want to PvP. I choose when i want to group with LFD. There is no reason why i shouldn't be happy gaming.

So what if i have fun with others on my own terms. You are going to sue me? You are going to sue the dev who cateres to my needs?

 

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

4/08/12 12:54:57 PM#104
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Cuathon

You are obviously wrong.

1) The most SUCCESSFUL dev is doing it.

2) Check the "explorer" achievement, there are people using it .. not a majority, but some.

You seems to argue that if a dev is catering to the needs of a minority of players, he is a "moron". Then i have to ask what YOU are wasting your life on, making a game few will play?

I am making a game which focuses on the world aspect of mmorpgs. Not shoving a half done shit fest implementation into a game which doesn't give a fuck abour mmoness but only chases monies.

No. They chase what entertains their players, as opposed to some idealistic world sim that may or may not be fun. And true, very few really cares about "MMOness" ... why would one sacrifice good "game-ness" because of that?

 


You don't have to. Just you also don't have to pretend your game is an MMO.

  FrostWyrm

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/11/05
Posts: 1038

4/08/12 1:45:18 PM#105
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by FrostWyrm
Originally posted by Beatnik59
 
Originally posted by nariusseldon
 

Apt observations.

From a player's point of view, there is really no reason to tolerate anything in an entertainment product.

This is the heart of the entire problem. You don't need to be playing a game that involves other people when you believe everything should be all about you. This is something you need to come to grips with.

What problem? I don't have to come to grip with ANYTHING. It is working fine for me. I don't have to tolerate anyone. I choose when i want to PvP. I choose when i want to group with LFD. There is no reason why i shouldn't be happy gaming.

So what if i have fun with others on my own terms. You are going to sue me? You are going to sue the dev who cateres to my needs?

Because you are not the only person those devs are catering to. I find it difficult to believe you feel WoW (which seems to be your game of choice) is 100% flawless.

Even if you like the majority of it, there must be something about it you would change, tweak, add, or remove entirely. Because you are not the only person playing the game (because it is a Massively Multiplayer Online RPG), you have to tolerate the aspects of the game you don't like that others do. That is, if you want to continue enjoying the part of it you do enjoy.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20673

4/08/12 4:12:34 PM#106
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Cuathon

You are obviously wrong.

1) The most SUCCESSFUL dev is doing it.

2) Check the "explorer" achievement, there are people using it .. not a majority, but some.

You seems to argue that if a dev is catering to the needs of a minority of players, he is a "moron". Then i have to ask what YOU are wasting your life on, making a game few will play?

I am making a game which focuses on the world aspect of mmorpgs. Not shoving a half done shit fest implementation into a game which doesn't give a fuck abour mmoness but only chases monies.

No. They chase what entertains their players, as opposed to some idealistic world sim that may or may not be fun. And true, very few really cares about "MMOness" ... why would one sacrifice good "game-ness" because of that?

 


You don't have to. Just you also don't have to pretend your game is an MMO.

I have been very clear that I like small group co-op games. It is not my problem if the industry decide they should be called MMOs. I am more than happy to use the common labels.

Clearly, the industry, ads, and game sites are using MMOs as the label for TOR, WOW, DDO and LOTRO. Until that changes, that is the label i am using.

As you pointed out in another thread, you can use VWRPG for the sandbox, non-wow like games.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20673

4/08/12 4:17:30 PM#107
Originally posted by FrostWyrm

What problem? I don't have to come to grip with ANYTHING. It is working fine for me. I don't have to tolerate anyone. I choose when i want to PvP. I choose when i want to group with LFD. There is no reason why i shouldn't be happy gaming.

So what if i have fun with others on my own terms. You are going to sue me? You are going to sue the dev who cateres to my needs?

Because you are not the only person those devs are catering to. I find it difficult to believe you feel WoW (which seems to be your game of choice) is 100% flawless.

Even if you like the majority of it, there must be something about it you would change, tweak, add, or remove entirely. Because you are not the only person playing the game (because it is a Massively Multiplayer Online RPG), you have to tolerate the aspects of the game you don't like that others do. That is, if you want to continue enjoying the part of it you do enjoy.

 

 

Sure, nothing is 100% flawless. But that does not mean there is a problem. I do wish that there are more PUGs, or that all raids can be done by LFR. Or there will be more content. But do I complain? No. Why should i? Just have some fun in what I *can* enjoy.

And use the word "tolerate" is over-kill. While WOW is not perfect, there is nothing i need to really "tolerate" in the game. Otherwise, i won't be playing it. Ditto for STO, DDO, or whatever game i am playing.

If i don't like a group, i quit it. If i don't like a player, i put him on ignore. If I don't want to pvp, i don't. What is to tolerate?

 

  MotokoHutt

Novice Member

Joined: 4/07/12
Posts: 49

Everyday is a gift, that's why they call it the Present

4/08/12 6:55:59 PM#108

""What is to tolerate?""

I think maybe you are just slightly missing the point :S for instance take "Lucent Heart" as a example the game focusses heavily on the couple system in the game BUT it only allows straight couples, personally I am a lesbian & would never consider being with a man in or out of game no matter if you say "its only a game", say I was a real big fan of the games Combat or something & I liked the way the game mechanics were done then this would be something I would HAVE to tolerate or be FORCED not to play the game, especially so because every player that was straight & was in a relationship would get a advantage over me in terms of skills & content etc, its the same if say a game has apart of the game maybe I dno when you get high level it becomes important but it requires PvP to access this part of the game, now say the game is for example "Grand Fantasia" were the PvP is rather well lets be honest extremely unbalanced, certain classes being nerfed for PvP & other being raised so high that once they have a decant armour set no one could even dream of touching them, I don't see why I'f I do want to play the game I should have to "Tolerate" this but if I like the rest of the game I would have to but that leaves me in a position were I will get so far & then never (or at least take 20x longer to) be able to advance.

Is this Just or should they really make things more Fair ? I dno maybe they are afraid if they change the way the game is they will upset too many people but they don't realise they have already upset so many people already what harm could it really do to at least try ? if it don't work hell put it back the way it was don't take but a system reboot & a reset of files.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20673

4/08/12 7:31:54 PM#109
Originally posted by MotokoHutt

""What is to tolerate?""

I think maybe you are just slightly missing the point :S for instance take "Lucent Heart" as a example the game focusses heavily on the couple system in the game BUT it only allows straight couples, personally I am a lesbian & would never consider being with a man in or out of game no matter if you say "its only a game", say I was a real big fan of the games Combat or something & I liked the way the game mechanics were done then this would be something I would HAVE to tolerate or be FORCED not to play the game, especially so because every player that was straight & was in a relationship would get a advantage over me in terms of skills & content etc, its the same if say a game has apart of the game maybe I dno when you get high level it becomes important but it requires PvP to access this part of the game, now say the game is for example "Grand Fantasia" were the PvP is rather well lets be honest extremely unbalanced, certain classes being nerfed for PvP & other being raised so high that once they have a decant armour set no one could even dream of touching them, I don't see why I'f I do want to play the game I should have to "Tolerate" this but if I like the rest of the game I would have to but that leaves me in a position were I will get so far & then never (or at least take 20x longer to) be able to advance.

 

 

Well, is this the ONLY game, which combat mechanics you like? I don't see why you need to tolerate this at all. Just do NOT play this game, and find some OTHER entertainment.

My point is that there are *so* many entertainment option out there, unless you have really preculier preferences, there is always some choice that does not require to "tolerate" anything. Worse case scenario, do not play video games. Given the breath of books & movies, i doubt you cannot find anything to watch without "tolerating" one issue or another.

  MotokoHutt

Novice Member

Joined: 4/07/12
Posts: 49

Everyday is a gift, that's why they call it the Present

4/09/12 9:11:45 AM#110


Originally posted by nariusseldon


Originally posted by MotokoHutt
""What is to tolerate?""
I think maybe you are just slightly missing the point :S for instance take "Lucent Heart" as a example the game focusses heavily on the couple system in the game BUT it only allows straight couples, personally I am a lesbian & would never consider being with a man in or out of game no matter if you say "its only a game", say I was a real big fan of the games Combat or something & I liked the way the game mechanics were done then this would be something I would HAVE to tolerate or be FORCED not to play the game, especially so because every player that was straight & was in a relationship would get a advantage over me in terms of skills & content etc, its the same if say a game has apart of the game maybe I dno when you get high level it becomes important but it requires PvP to access this part of the game, now say the game is for example "Grand Fantasia" were the PvP is rather well lets be honest extremely unbalanced, certain classes being nerfed for PvP & other being raised so high that once they have a decant armour set no one could even dream of touching them, I don't see why I'f I do want to play the game I should have to "Tolerate" this but if I like the rest of the game I would have to but that leaves me in a position were I will get so far & then never (or at least take 20x longer to) be able to advance.
 


 
Well, is this the ONLY game, which combat mechanics you like? I don't see why you need to tolerate this at all. Just do NOT play this game, and find some OTHER entertainment.
My point is that there are *so* many entertainment option out there, unless you have really preculier preferences, there is always some choice that does not require to "tolerate" anything. Worse case scenario, do not play video games. Given the breath of books & movies, i doubt you cannot find anything to watch without "tolerating" one issue or another.

well the reason I picked the game Grand Fantasia in particular is because I had played the game for 1 year before I found out the truth about the PvP aspect, also its not just me that plays it as my Girl Friend play's it as well, & also your so called "Just do NOT play this game" well it isn't that easy is it ? every game you play works completely different, every game you play has different classes, different skills, different areas & also a different game wouldn't have your friends on it ether would it ? so is it as easy as "Just do NOT play this game" ? No it isn't :S.

also it seems that every MMORPG you play will be unbalanced in some way or Racist in another way or BIist in another, so that's the point that these people are trying to make, yes there are many things in the game that maybe you do like but no matter how much you ignore the part you don't like its still going to be there so its literally Tolerate it or Get lost, the point is people should have to put up with this & GM's & Dev's should make more effort to listen to there customers, I dno if its just me or not but it does seem that all GM's & Dev's these days have no or very little social skills like there a hermit that has been living under a unsocial rock all there life ?

  User Deleted
4/09/12 9:18:36 AM#111
Originally posted by nariusseldon

Well, is this the ONLY game, which combat mechanics you like? I don't see why you need to tolerate this at all. Just do NOT play this game, and find some OTHER entertainment.

My point is that there are *so* many entertainment option out there, unless you have really preculier preferences, there is always some choice that does not require to "tolerate" anything. Worse case scenario, do not play video games. Given the breath of books & movies, i doubt you cannot find anything to watch without "tolerating" one issue or another.

I think she has a valid point in her post that can't be cancelled with Just do NOT play this game. I don't know how long she's been gaming, I don't know her. But if it's as long as me, when I started out playing RPG's I could ONLY create guy characters. Yes I found it annoying and a tad unfair to assume that people besides men might want to play. If I took the do not play this game attitude I've have given up gaming long before MMO's ever existed. Sometimes we do have to tolerate something but it doesn't mean it might not still be annoying.

  MotokoHutt

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Joined: 4/07/12
Posts: 49

Everyday is a gift, that's why they call it the Present

4/09/12 9:23:08 AM#112

ty :3 x

I am glad someone gets my point XD

  RefMinor

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Joined: 7/16/11
Posts: 3545

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4/09/12 9:25:46 AM#113
Originally posted by nariusseldon

Last time I check, i don't need anyone ELSE in the world when i explore it.

 

But it helps to make it a richer experience.
  cutthecrap

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/29/12
Posts: 608

4/09/12 9:30:53 AM#114
Originally posted by RefMinor
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by RefMinor
We need VWRPG virtual world RPG as a separate genre as MMORPG is a lost cause.

 

It *is* already a different genre. Look at Second Life and Eve. Not a very popular genre, but a genre nevertheless.

 

Second life isn't really a game, but it has 800k odd players, Eve is pushing 450k paid subscriptions, not exactly a small niche, second life will have more players than SWTOR in a couple of months time. Edit: I think only Aion and WoW (and maybe Tor) have a larger player base than second life.

Proof?

Last known number was something like 360k I think, and if I look at the PCU decrease over the past year, I'd more liken it to be around 250-300k active subs based on active playerbase than the other way around. That's a guess of course, I don't know what the number of subs really is but the PCU figures show another picture than you're drawing here.

  Bossalinie

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Joined: 8/29/07
Posts: 632

4/09/12 9:31:31 AM#115
Originally posted by RefMinor
Originally posted by nariusseldon

Last time I check, i don't need anyone ELSE in the world when i explore it.

 

But it helps to make it a richer experience.

A personal preference...not requirement.

  MotokoHutt

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Joined: 4/07/12
Posts: 49

Everyday is a gift, that's why they call it the Present

4/09/12 9:35:50 AM#116


Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by nariusseldon




Last time I check, i don't need anyone ELSE in the world when i explore it.



 
But it helps to make it a richer experience.

personally when I am going around in a MMORPG game I do like to work in a small Squad like team but I do think that Social Interaction is still vital, however I don't like being in a massive guild for instance with like 100-200+ players as I find it very confusing & un-organised, whenever I have had a Guild in a game I only want 20-30 players max in the guild that know each other get along & help each other, is this the wrong way to be going for a MMO game ? I don't know maybe maybe not but I do not see anything wrong with me wanting a "Circle of Friends" instead of trying to get to know & work with 100+ people that I know nothing about, when I do have a small Guild of 20-30 people then I know what they are capable of & they know what I am capable of and personally I find that the best way to go, I do think however that most MMORPG's these days focus "too much" on the social aspect & not enough on game play & world variety, I think that some (not all) MMORPG's are becoming so Social based that they might as well be a Social networking game like Second Life, I don't know if anyone feels the same way ?

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

4/09/12 9:39:27 AM#117

You think modern MMOs are TOO social?

Mind. Blown.

  User Deleted
4/09/12 9:40:12 AM#118
Originally posted by MotokoHutt

personally when I am going around in a MMORPG game I do like to work in a small Squad like team but I do think that Social Interaction is still vital, however I don't like being in a massive guild for instance with like 100-200+ players as I find it very confusing & un-organised, whenever I have had a Guild in a game I only want 20-30 players max in the guild that know each other get along & help each other, is this the wrong way to be going for a MMO game ? I don't know maybe maybe not but I do not see anything wrong with me wanting a "Circle of Friends" instead of trying to get to know & work with 100+ people that I know nothing about, when I do have a small Guild of 20-30 people then I know what they are capable of & they know what I am capable of and personally I find that the best way to go, I do think however that most MMORPG's these days focus "too much" on the social aspect & not enough on game play & world variety, I think that some (not all) MMORPG's are becoming so Social based that they might as well be a Social networking game like Second Life, I don't know if anyone feels the same way ?

If you are playing wrong then so am I. I play generally with my husband, sons and sometimes some real life friends or some long term friends from other games. 10 to 20 of us depending on the game. If a game is anti that sort of thing then it's probably not the game for me no matter how much I'd like to play it. I'm  not into the whole HUGE guild thing either though I have tried one once or twice I've not lasted long. Even so as far as exploration, my other half HATES exploring. He'd die of boredom if I made hm explore with me so I don't mind doing it by myself at all.

  RefMinor

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4/09/12 9:41:38 AM#119
Originally posted by MotokoHutt


Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by nariusseldon




Last time I check, i don't need anyone ELSE in the world when i explore it.



 
But it helps to make it a richer experience.

personally when I am going around in a MMORPG game I do like to work in a small Squad like team but I do think that Social Interaction is still vital, however I don't like being in a massive guild for instance with like 100-200+ players as I find it very confusing & un-organised, whenever I have had a Guild in a game I only want 20-30 players max in the guild that know each other get along & help each other, is this the wrong way to be going for a MMO game ? I don't know maybe maybe not but I do not see anything wrong with me wanting a "Circle of Friends" instead of trying to get to know & work with 100+ people that I know nothing about, when I do have a small Guild of 20-30 people then I know what they are capable of & they know what I am capable of and personally I find that the best way to go, I do think however that most MMORPG's these days focus "too much" on the social aspect & not enough on game play & world variety, I think that some (not all) MMORPG's are becoming so Social based that they might as well be a Social networking game like Second Life, I don't know if anyone feels the same way ?

 

I think you missed my point completely.
  MotokoHutt

Novice Member

Joined: 4/07/12
Posts: 49

Everyday is a gift, that's why they call it the Present

4/09/12 9:43:06 AM#120


Originally posted by Cuathon
You think modern MMOs are TOO social?
Mind. Blown.

let me expand on that Idea for you, when I 1st started to play MMORPG games it seemed like the best guild's/Team's in the game were based of people who were "skill full" players who were driven to be the best, now it seems that to be the best guild u just need 100-200-300+ people then no one will stop you, is that seriously the way things should be ? I dno maybe maybe not but its only my opinion I am not trying to say what's wrong or right

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