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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Is the MMO genre being blended into others, like what happened to RPGs?

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144 posts found
  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

4/08/12 6:55:00 AM#81
Originally posted by FrostWyrm

*Grab's cane*

Back when I was a youngster, the internet was a supplement to face-to-face interaction, not a replacement for it. We learned to respect other people and not dehumanize those we didn't have direct contact with because of it.

Now get off my lawn!!

But the "sorry state of today's youth" isn't really a part of a discussion of RPGs; at best the discussion taking that turn is an irrelevant digression.  Plus, you know, grandpa said the same thing sixty years ago.

The "sorry state of today's games" is a similar argument; at best it's just an expression of general resistance to change.  (Grandpa would have shook his cane at you and told you to get off the computer and do some chores.)

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  User Deleted
4/08/12 6:56:43 AM#82
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by FrostWyrm

*Grab's cane*

Back when I was a youngster, the internet was a supplement to face-to-face interaction, not a replacement for it. We learned to respect other people and not dehumanize those we didn't have direct contact with because of it.

Now get off my lawn!!

But the "sorry state of today's youth" isn't really a part of a discussion of RPGs; at best the discussion taking that turn is an irrelevant digression.  Plus, you know, grandpa said the same thing sixty years ago.

The "sorry state of today's games" is a similar argument; at best it's just an expression of general resistance to change.

lol so true.  I catch my self telling my kids " I didn't have all these gadgets to entertain me when I was a kid". Makes me feel old tbh :)

  User Deleted
4/08/12 7:05:04 AM#83
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by FrostWyrm

*Grab's cane*

Back when I was a youngster, the internet was a supplement to face-to-face interaction, not a replacement for it. We learned to respect other people and not dehumanize those we didn't have direct contact with because of it.

Now get off my lawn!!

But the "sorry state of today's youth" isn't really a part of a discussion of RPGs; at best the discussion taking that turn is an irrelevant digression.  Plus, you know, grandpa said the same thing sixty years ago.

The "sorry state of today's games" is a similar argument; at best it's just an expression of general resistance to change.

You seem to be under the misguided impression this is some sort of "I dont like their music" or "I dont like their fashion" debate. I assure you its not. Dropping test scores, juvenile diabetes, childhood obesity, increasing drop out rates, these are all documented facts. Until just recently it was unheard of in America to see one generation be as a whole unable to obtain the success of their parents. Your argument doesnt work, this isnt a simple argument of which generation is better, or who likes what, its a matter of an entire generation being faced with challenged theyre not prepared for. That in and of itself is something new to the game as well. I understand your need to stand up and flip the man the finger cause you dont like being labeled and categorized. I get that, but again, were talking about things I can prove, not just my opinion on the matter.

Hate all you want, but how I see MMOs catering to younger folks seems eerily familiar with the bad parenting thats going on a lot as of late. You cant give a kid everything they want all the time and expect that at some point theyre going to wake up and break free from the training theyve had from birth.

Its why we have so many negative unsatisfied people in MMOs just like in life.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

4/08/12 7:09:15 AM#84
Originally posted by Callidor
You seem to be under the misguided impression this is some sort of "I dont like their music" or "I dont like their fashion" debate. I assure you its not.

Let's just point out that your concern for youth doesn't resound terribly convincing from your computer chair.

But I've given up arguing with Plato over what he thinks about today's kids and the inevitable ensuing disaster.  Perhaps you should too.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  User Deleted
4/08/12 7:13:17 AM#85
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Callidor
You seem to be under the misguided impression this is some sort of "I dont like their music" or "I dont like their fashion" debate. I assure you its not.

Let's just point out that your concern for youth doesn't resound terribly convincing from your computer chair.

Let me start off by saying i appreciate that you had the common sense enough not to debate my points but instead went the coy route. I myself have 3 daughters, I volunteer at their school and am an assistant soccer coach for my youngests team. I dare you to do more, we need all the help we can get.

  SaintPhilip

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/12
Posts: 729

4/08/12 7:13:40 AM#86
Originally posted by Callidor
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by FrostWyrm

*Grab's cane*

Back when I was a youngster, the internet was a supplement to face-to-face interaction, not a replacement for it. We learned to respect other people and not dehumanize those we didn't have direct contact with because of it.

Now get off my lawn!!

But the "sorry state of today's youth" isn't really a part of a discussion of RPGs; at best the discussion taking that turn is an irrelevant digression.  Plus, you know, grandpa said the same thing sixty years ago.

The "sorry state of today's games" is a similar argument; at best it's just an expression of general resistance to change.

You seem to be under the misguided impression this is some sort of "I dont like their music" or "I dont like their fashion" debate. I assure you its not. Dropping test scores, juvenile diabetes, childhood obesity, increasing drop out rates, these are all documented facts. Until just recently it was unheard of in America to see one generation be as a whole unable to obtain the success of their parents. Your argument doesnt work, this isnt a simple argument of which generation is better, or who likes what, its a matter of an entire generation being faced with challenged theyre not prepared for. That in and of itself is something new to the game as well. I understand your need to stand up and flip the man the finger cause you dont like being labeled and categorized. I get that, but again, were talking about things I can prove, not just my opinion on the matter.

Hate all you want, but how I see MMOs catering to younger folks seems eerily familiar with the bad parenting thats going on a lot as of late. You cant give a kid everything they want all the time and expect that at some point theyre going to wake up and break free from the training theyve had from birth.

Its why we have so many negative unsatisfied people in MMOs just like in life.

Its a whole different topic, but you make some great points-

Kids Sports today now do not keep score, nor have winners or losers... Learning to lose gracefully is part of growing up and "self esteem" is trumping reality.

I agree with you- But think it has little to do with the MMO problem. Its a real world problem.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

4/08/12 7:15:29 AM#87
Originally posted by Callidor
 

Let me start off by saying i appreciate that you had the common sense enough not to debate my points but instead went the coy route. I myself have 3 daughters, I volunteer at their school and am an assistant soccer coach for my youngests team. I dare you to do more, we need all the help we can get.

Holier than thou?  Please.

Agree to disagree, you're far too young to go the self-righteous route.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  User Deleted
4/08/12 7:25:22 AM#88
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Callidor
 

Let me start off by saying i appreciate that you had the common sense enough not to debate my points but instead went the coy route. I myself have 3 daughters, I volunteer at their school and am an assistant soccer coach for my youngests team. I dare you to do more, we need all the help we can get.

Holier than thou?  Please.

Agree to disagree, you're far too young to go the self-righteous route.

Im waiting for a valid rebuttal to any of my points. Thus far all Im seeing is proof in the pudding in regards to sidestepping my argument and going for the personal attack. Respect people with more life experience than you, even if it makes you mad. Thats something apparently not taught anymore.

This sort of attitude Im afraid has been more and more prevelant. The main difference between new school and old school in terms of online behavior is that we still have one thing ingrained in us that new players dont get. In our day if you said the things young people get away with to other people before the internet, your parents dressed you down, or someone punched your face through the back of your head. Since we didnt have anonymity to protect us and allow us to be crass and rude without consequences we grew up with a whole different concept of respecting other people.

Like I said, MMOs and life have that in common, give the people every single thing they want all the time and theyll never understand how to appreciate accomplishment in teamwork.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

4/08/12 7:30:02 AM#89

Keep waitin.

Derailing the thread five (six?) times with one irrelevancy is often enough.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  User Deleted
4/08/12 7:33:42 AM#90
Originally posted by Icewhite

Keep waitin.

Derailing the thread five (six?) times with one irrelevancy is often enough.

My point is quite relevant to thread. Because companies are constantly rolling over and further spoiling the players by trying to appease them as much as possible is why MMO genre is where it is in terms of why theres so much dissatisfaction.

I simply pointed out that the MMO industry seems to be imitating life.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

4/08/12 7:38:06 AM#91
Originally posted by Callidor

I simply pointed out that the MMO industry seems to be imitating life.

Yes, it changes over time.  Just like life does.  Sometimes, it even changes in ways we may not like.  Like those solo players getting a place in the market, gotta hate that.  And those damn PvP players too, wrecking our beautiful RPGs...

But it isn't a country club.  Because I was here first doesn't mean I own it all.

 

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  User Deleted
4/08/12 7:41:25 AM#92
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Callidor

I simply pointed out that the MMO industry seems to be imitating life.

Yes, it changes over time.  Just like life does.  Sometimes, it even changes in ways we may not like.  Like those solo players getting a place in the market, gotta hate that.  And those damn PvP players too, wrecking our beautiful RPGs...

But it isn't a country club.  Because I was here first doesn't mean I own it all.

 

True, but if I had a serene beautiful woodland park with a pond on it where I grew up, and suddenly someone bulldozes it all and puts up 100 variants of sub par starbucks, I believe I would be entitled to voice my displeasure.

UO and EQ, and even MUDs seemed a lot more organic to me. Now MMOs just feel like one more commercial enterprise trying to bilk people out of money for sub par products.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

4/08/12 7:46:41 AM#93
Originally posted by Callidor
True, but if I had a serene beautiful woodland park with a pond on it where I grew up, and suddenly someone bulldozes it all and puts up 100 variants of sub par starbucks, I believe I would be entitled to voice my displeasure.

UO and EQ, and even MUDs seemed a lot more organic to me. Now MMOs just feel like one more commercial enterprise trying to bilk people out of money for sub par products.

You can wave your cane on your lawn and voice your displeasure to your heart's content, but it's ultimately ineffective against a changing market.  The developers are just going to let "those people" join the country club regardless.

 

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  User Deleted
4/08/12 7:55:05 AM#94
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Callidor
True, but if I had a serene beautiful woodland park with a pond on it where I grew up, and suddenly someone bulldozes it all and puts up 100 variants of sub par starbucks, I believe I would be entitled to voice my displeasure.

UO and EQ, and even MUDs seemed a lot more organic to me. Now MMOs just feel like one more commercial enterprise trying to bilk people out of money for sub par products.

You can wave your cane on your lawn and voice your displeasure to your heart's content, but it's ultimately ineffective against a changing market.  The developers are just going to let "those people" join the country club regardless.

 

whether or not its ineffective is irrelevant, were all entitled to our opinion regardless of the ramifications. Obviously the OP doesnt care much for the whoreing out of the MMO concept as are a lot of folks. I would also like to point out its not the players dictating the market so much as the market telling the players what to like. Why do you think things like Pre order prizes and whatnot are becoming so prevalent? All this marketing hype, flashy slogans and banners, theyre telling YOU what YOU like, and because marketing is the new religion, the products are worshipped like gods. This also ties into why people are really starting to give new games the stink eye. All hype and no delivery.

A close college friend of mine who works in marketing for Apple once told me. "We dont worry about people not liking our products, we tell them them what to like, and they do.

 

  corpusc

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1378

CHATTANOOGAN

contact me if you are seriously interested in
* C#
* making an old schoolish FPS

4/08/12 8:01:50 AM#95
Originally posted by Cuathon

My progress is constantly stalled by restrictive licenses and poor integration and documentation of libraries. I can see why more people don't push forward to make multiplayer or massively multiplayer games. Holy crap is it a pain.

I yearn for my days with PHP. It was flawlessly integrated with css, html, javascript, jquery, and mysql.

C++ is a crazy all over the place shitfest.

To be fair, it has much more powerful capabilities. But god is it a pain.

 

that pain combined with the massive amount of work involved, and how critical it is to have extremely organized code (which C++ makes harder to)

==

you should move up to a higher level more modern language (C# is one example).

The End
---------------------------
i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

4/08/12 8:02:40 AM#96
Originally posted by Callidor

A close college friend of mine who works in marketing for Apple once told me. "We dont worry about people not liking our products, we tell them them what to like, and they do.

As typically happens when you own the majority of a market.  Blizzard's in the same position (though you could argue that position is currently finally showing signs of weakening).

But as long as the games keep selling and the gamers never leave, the game quality will keep progressing as it has been.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  User Deleted
4/08/12 8:09:09 AM#97
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Callidor
True, but if I had a serene beautiful woodland park with a pond on it where I grew up, and suddenly someone bulldozes it all and puts up 100 variants of sub par starbucks, I believe I would be entitled to voice my displeasure.

UO and EQ, and even MUDs seemed a lot more organic to me. Now MMOs just feel like one more commercial enterprise trying to bilk people out of money for sub par products.

You can wave your cane on your lawn and voice your displeasure to your heart's content, but it's ultimately ineffective against a changing market.  The developers are just going to let "those people" join the country club regardless.

 

Well heres to you Icewhite. May you never wake up to find your bicycle has had the training wheels put back on it. May you never taste the bitterness of finding your favorite hobby has been dumbed so far down that its no longer enjoyable. May you have better luck than the rest of us in never having to wear that shoe on the other foot.

  FrostWyrm

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/11/05
Posts: 1038

4/08/12 8:12:28 AM#98
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by FrostWyrm

*Grab's cane*

Back when I was a youngster, the internet was a supplement to face-to-face interaction, not a replacement for it. We learned to respect other people and not dehumanize those we didn't have direct contact with because of it.

Now get off my lawn!!

But the "sorry state of today's youth" isn't really a part of a discussion of RPGs; at best the discussion taking that turn is an irrelevant digression.  Plus, you know, grandpa said the same thing sixty years ago.

The "sorry state of today's games" is a similar argument; at best it's just an expression of general resistance to change.  (Grandpa would have shook his cane at you and told you to get off the computer and do some chores.)

MMORPGs are largely about social interaction. That means it is very much connected to the state of today's youth. Player behavior is a driving factor in MMORPGs. Don't get me wrong, though, I'm not saying my generation was perfect or that EVERYTHING about the current generation is worse than those before it, but when it comes to social skills, I definitely believe there's been a decline.

Each generation has its positives and negatives over the one that comes before it. Kids in this generation are generally more intelligent than they were in my own. However, I attribute the falling test scores to lack of study brought about by increased laziness.

The crap in food and other products affects development also. Much of the stuff you find on food labels you didn't see much 20 years ago. Not that everything I ate as a kid was all-natural and packed with nutrition. Seems everyone and their little brother these days is diagnosed with ADD, ADHD, Aspergers, or some other form of "disorder". It can only mean the crap in our food and hygene products are screwing us up, or we're misdiagnosing everyone and putting them on drugs that screw them up. Not a pretty picture.

  MotokoHutt

Novice Member

Joined: 4/07/12
Posts: 49

Everyday is a gift, that's why they call it the Present

4/08/12 8:50:38 AM#99

Personally I think most people are missing the point, yes company's in power have this motto of they don't need to make what the people want they tell people what they want & don't want, at the end of the day they don't get these ideas out of thin air, 1 person at one time said "oh that would be a good idea" & a company is all about risk assessment & possible Profit.

All it seems to me is that with the constantly changing market & Tax Prices Etc no "Company" is willing to take any risk & would rather make mediocre changes to try keep there fan's at least mildly content to the point were they don't leave, at the end of the day NOTHING can be done about the games like WoW that already are out there, if they do change these already stated MMORPG's then all they will do is not just shoot them self s in the head but Mutilate them self's then get a fan to shoot them in the head to finish them off.

doesn't matter what you call it VWRPG, MMORPG whatever don't matter at the end of it all they are all just company's trying to make profit in a ever changing world, for thing's to actually go back to the true nature of a On-line Role play game you would have to get someone that is willing to go back to basic's, someone that has time has the Knowledge has a couple of Friends that will help them for free & spend 5-10+ years doing old school back yard programming, people that actually enjoy the process of making the game as much as the Profits.

there is a Market for a True On-line RPG game, no matter what you say no matter what you think there truly is a HUGE whole in the market for something like this, the only problem is the game would have to be a true work of art made of passion & dedication to be able to fill the whole, personally I am studying all the knowledge to make something like this work & I truly do have the passion & commitment needed but finding a bunch of Like minded people that live near by or at least within a reasonable distance is all most impossible, I also have personally been studying the MMORPG market since I was like 10 years old & have been putting down Ideas that I have had all this time but it isn't until now I have had the money & time to actually learn the Information needed for the trade.

well anyway just encase I have offended anyone I am sorry this is Just my opinion & hugs all <3 x

  MotokoHutt

Novice Member

Joined: 4/07/12
Posts: 49

Everyday is a gift, that's why they call it the Present

4/08/12 9:20:08 AM#100


Originally posted by FrostWyrm


Originally posted by Icewhite


Originally posted by FrostWyrm
*Grab's cane*
Back when I was a youngster, the internet was a supplement to face-to-face interaction, not a replacement for it. We learned to respect other people and not dehumanize those we didn't have direct contact with because of it.
Now get off my lawn!!


But the "sorry state of today's youth" isn't really a part of a discussion of RPGs; at best the discussion taking that turn is an irrelevant digression.  Plus, you know, grandpa said the same thing sixty years ago.
The "sorry state of today's games" is a similar argument; at best it's just an expression of general resistance to change.  (Grandpa would have shook his cane at you and told you to get off the computer and do some chores.)


MMORPGs are largely about social interaction. That means it is very much connected to the state of today's youth. Player behavior is a driving factor in MMORPGs. Don't get me wrong, though, I'm not saying my generation was perfect or that EVERYTHING about the current generation is worse than those before it, but when it comes to social skills, I definitely believe there's been a decline.
Each generation has its positives and negatives over the one that comes before it. Kids in this generation are generally more intelligent than they were in my own. However, I attribute the falling test scores to lack of study brought about by increased laziness.
The crap in food and other products affects development also. Much of the stuff you find on food labels you didn't see much 20 years ago. Not that everything I ate as a kid was all-natural and packed with nutrition. Seems everyadone and their little brother these days is diagnosed with ADD, ADHD, Aspergers, or some other form of "disorder". It can only mean the crap in our food and hygene products are screwing us up, or we're misdiagnosing everyone and putting them on drugs that screw them up. Not a pretty picture.

to be fair your probably right in many ways, even though I am today's generation my Mother Brought me up with healthy food & plenty of good quality meat & veg, as I grew up I had very little in the way of Junk food/Fast food & I do feel as if I have more of the urge to learn & get things done, its not as if I was born into a rich family to achieve this as well as when I grew up we had extremely little money & I spent most of my childhood in a hostel or Temporary House with my mum & two sisters but still my mum was thrifty and always made sure we had proper food.

also I do think that Food isn't all the problem I also believe that a big factor is all the rules & laws that have been shoved in are face for are so called safety, don't do that do this, don't eat that eat this, don't cook your food that way cook it this way, don't bloody ride a bike without stabilizers at that age as you will fall over & break your skull, personally I think its all a bunch of over dramatized nascences and it should be up to the parent, child or person what risks they do & don't want to take.

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