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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » LOL @ "Player Skill" & Pro Play

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119 posts found
  LeegOfChldrn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/11/11
Posts: 369

 
OP  4/01/12 4:46:13 AM#1

I always thought it was funny when people almost raged when talking about "Player Skill" as if people incapable of faster mouse clicks or accurate reaction FPS skills are inferior to someone with a talent for theory-crafting or min/maxing their character specialization, balancing their budget / earning gold for their item accumulation, or simply someone who spends more time in the game than others.

Typically this idea that "Player Skill" is solely derived from FPS skillz br0 came across my mind when thinking of the forums just before Darkfall's initial release, people bashing "carebears", and the constant "bro" crowd which states that ALL mmorpgs would be 100x better with FPS aiming and untargeted spell casts like a FPS game.

 

Really, I find the whole concept of "Player Skill" pretty laughable. Most pro play in any game genre is almost entirely based on abusing exploits in game mechanics, min/maxing based on the (typically ONE) way to play the game. When I really think about it, all "Skill" is pretty meaningless and laughable, no matter what you're competing in or playing.

Even in real life, intelligence makes one man no more valuable a human than the next. Although the world seems to be impressed by people who can jump higher, run faster, or solve complex math problems rapidly, those people are no more important (arguably less) than many of the "lesser" capable grunts working jobs which are requirements for what society considers "modern living" such as electricians, chinese factory workers, farmers, and plumbers.

 

I created this thread initially from reading another thread where someone (of many I've seen before) upset that time invested in MMORPG's is more important than other forms of skill. Although I severely dislike games which make players more powerful based solely on their time (as opposed to decisions, talents in other areas, etc.) if I were not a quick reaction player with a lot of gaming experience across all genres, I'd probably think very positively of time progression. After all, why is it fair that one man rofl-stomp others in PvP simply because their brain works differently than yours? That's hardly fun or entertaining. You could however argue the opposite-- why should they beat me when they are clearly inferior players? To each his own, and honestly I'd love to see games which promote a little bit of everything, which I think is what the mainstream has done.

WoW PvP is a great example of this fine tuned balance, IMO. In WoW, a player can be the best solely by time invested (level, gameplay experience), by reaction and FPS skills (such as the difference between those who click to cast and those who WASD or use a gamepad or gaming mouse or complex macros),  by simply being the overpowered class (especially in low levels, some classes are rofl-stompingly ridiculously unbalanced), or by getting the right gear or having the right social connections to achieve all of the above.

 

My biggest problem though, are the min-maxers who exploit EVERYTHING they can for easy wins, despite it taking a large amount of the fun (challenge) out of the game. Those who not only are great players with tons of gaming experience, but also stack this high advantage WITH overpowered classes, AND heavy time investment, MULTIPLIED by gear perfection, twinking, etc.

It is one thing to have tons of different ways to be great at a game. It is entirely another to stack every single advantage on top of one another becoming an overwhelmingly powerful force that can singlehandedly change the battlefield and make the experience of the other 1-19 players an absolutely boring, frustrating, or needlessly unchallenging waste of their time.

WIth this said, WoW is also a great example of a system where someone obsessed with winning at all costs against opponents who provide 0 challenge can rofl-stomp their way to ruining everyone else's fun.

This complaint I am making reminds me of a FPS game I was playing. The server was full, and everyone would normally have a blast but this 1 person was so good, so experienced, with so much a better score than everyone else (they would kill others the moment they'd appear) that the entire server, including his own team, voting to kick him and succeeded. I was the one who initiated the vote. Why? Because out of the 12 people playing, only 1 was having fun while the rest of the 11 were playing on an entirely lower level. This 1 player literally was "so good" he ruined the game for everyone else. His team never got to kill anyone or even fight, because he would kill everyone all across the map. The enemy wouldnt even get to play, as they'd die the moment BEFORE he'd even appear on screen. The moment this player was kicked, against his wishes, everyone started having a blast, providing each other with very challenging gameplay. Even though there were several clear bad players and several clear good ones, the differentiation was not as massive anymore, and even the bad players could have fun enough.

 

Finally, I'd just like to add that even though I am a huge nerd, I still think people who "pro play" any video game are a laughing stock and a shame on the gaming scene solely because they are exploiting game mechanics and programming balance instead of providing themselves with a form of entertainment focused on having fun as opposed to competition. Although it is fun for them (the only reason I dont think ill of them or suggest NOT having said tournament) I still think it is all quite the joke.

Of course, this is also coming from the same person who thinks those who worship celebrities and make sport players their personal heroes are what I would call the "bottom of the gene pool". No offense, but LOL @ being payed millions and become worshiped for being able to run really fast or catch a ball better than other people. Although I am probably an "elitist" I think that REAL heroes deserve the credit and self-obsessed people who do nothing for society but "pro play" do more harm than good. I mean, it's not like the best teachers are payed millions of dollars and drafted to "pro teach" or anything. Right? Right? It's not like public education suffers due to low pay and atheltic scholarships often trump any form of intellectual persuit. Right? Right? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16452

4/01/12 4:52:56 AM#2

There is clearly 2 things in MMOs that matters, how good you actually play and how good your toon is.

That some people prefer one or the other is only natural.

  fivoroth

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/10/06
Posts: 2624

4/01/12 4:53:26 AM#3

Lol w0t? It's only FPS. Go play Starcraft 2 and lets see if you can get into grandmaster league. But again I am pretty sure I will be the one laughing when you can't even get into gold league. That game is all about player skill. 

Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

  causs

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/16/10
Posts: 647

http://nl.twitch.tv/chazerx

4/01/12 4:59:09 AM#4
Originally posted by LeegOfChldrn

 

*Snip*

Really, I find the whole concept of "Player Skill" pretty laughable. Most pro play in any game genre is almost entirely based on abusing exploits in game mechanics, min/maxing based on the (typically ONE) way to play the game. When I really think about it, all "Skill" is pretty meaningless and laughable, no matter what you're competing in or playing.

*Snip*

Say what? So you would say that in sports, athletes just exploit and use almost no skill? Because e-sports is exactly the same. And no, it's all skills. Look up League of Legends, Starcraft, DotA, Call of Duty, Unreal etc. And tell me they 'exploit'. Really.. some people.

causs Xfire Miniprofile
  LeegOfChldrn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/11/11
Posts: 369

 
OP  4/01/12 5:00:12 AM#5
Originally posted by fivoroth

Lol w0t? It's only FPS. Go play Starcraft 2 and lets see if you can get into grandmaster league. But again I am pretty sure I will be the one laughing when you can't even get into gold league. That game is all about player skill. 

LOL........ the epitome of what I am talking about :)

  Ankur

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/12
Posts: 340

4/01/12 5:02:09 AM#6
Originally posted by fivoroth

Lol w0t? It's only FPS. Go play Starcraft 2 and lets see if you can get into grandmaster league. But again I am pretty sure I will be the one laughing when you can't even get into gold league. That game is all about player skill. 

/facepalm

You just proved what he was saying.

  fivoroth

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/10/06
Posts: 2624

4/01/12 5:02:13 AM#7
Originally posted by Ankur
Originally posted by fivoroth

Lol w0t? It's only FPS. Go play Starcraft 2 and lets see if you can get into grandmaster league. But again I am pretty sure I will be the one laughing when you can't even get into gold league. That game is all about player skill. 

/facepalm

You just proved what he was saying.

So his theory that there's no player skill and that people only exploit the game is proved by my Starcraft example>?

Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

  Ankur

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/12
Posts: 340

4/01/12 5:04:42 AM#8
Originally posted by causs
Originally posted by LeegOfChldrn

 

*Snip*

Really, I find the whole concept of "Player Skill" pretty laughable. Most pro play in any game genre is almost entirely based on abusing exploits in game mechanics, min/maxing based on the (typically ONE) way to play the game. When I really think about it, all "Skill" is pretty meaningless and laughable, no matter what you're competing in or playing.

*Snip*

Say what? So you would say that in sports, athletes just exploit and use almost no skill? Because e-sports is exactly the same. And no, it's all skills. Look up League of Legends, Starcraft, DotA, Call of Duty, Unreal etc. And tell me they 'exploit'. Really.. some people.

Please don't compare a person clicking the mouse to athletes who acually make use of every muscle in their body and really really work hard physicaly and mentaly on daily basis. Sitting on couch on your ass whole day and clicking mouse doesn't make you an athlete. Jeez.

  LeegOfChldrn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/11/11
Posts: 369

 
OP  4/01/12 5:06:24 AM#9
Originally posted by causs
Originally posted by LeegOfChldrn

 

*Snip*

Really, I find the whole concept of "Player Skill" pretty laughable. Most pro play in any game genre is almost entirely based on abusing exploits in game mechanics, min/maxing based on the (typically ONE) way to play the game. When I really think about it, all "Skill" is pretty meaningless and laughable, no matter what you're competing in or playing.

*Snip*

Say what? So you would say that in sports, athletes just exploit and use almost no skill? Because e-sports is exactly the same. And no, it's all skills. Look up League of Legends, Starcraft, DotA, Call of Duty, Unreal etc. And tell me they 'exploit'. Really.. some people.

Watch some pro play FPS games. The players actually have mental timers on when certain weapons/power-ups respawn, and base their gameplay on that.

The commentators will literally say that solely based on (insert power-up) being denied by their opponent, the player won the game.

 

While it is certainly true that some games are different than others and require different skills to play competitively, there is always an exploitative min/maxing.

 

Take League of Legends for example. A game where min/maxing and exploiting game mechanics is more obvious than other games. In Pro Play, certain champions are forbidden. I am not even talking about the bans of powerful champions. I am talking about the fact many champions are a joke to play in pro tournaments, because they are inferior champions. Now take mechanics: such as stuns. It is not a coincidence that many of the more popular champions in tournaments can stun. Being able to stun is a very, very powerful mechanic.

 

If you think that "player skill" is the majority, then pro players wouldn't find certain weapons, champions, items, etc. to be a joke. It is NOT uncommon to find professional gamers all using the same weapons, same tactics, same strategies, same counters, same tricks, same exploits, same "player skill", etc.

Pro play isn't even about the ability to get instant headshots off with quick reaction, as much as it is about knowing the metagame, game experience with the mechanics, and experience with how the game plays out based on min/maxing the code underneath.

  Worstluck

Novice Member

Joined: 1/29/11
Posts: 1280

No man controls my destiny... especially not one who attacks downwind and stinks of garlic.

4/01/12 5:07:39 AM#10

Pretty tall soapbox mate.  I hope you have some thick glasses in order to see us down here!

 

How you went from talking about how WoW pvp is finely tuned to the downfall of our public education system is beyond me.  I suppose on second thought those two statements are somewhat related.

 

EDIT:  Oh looks like you removed the wow pvp stuff.  Ahh well.  Have fun!

  LeegOfChldrn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/11/11
Posts: 369

 
OP  4/01/12 5:14:47 AM#11
Originally posted by Ankur
Originally posted by causs
Originally posted by LeegOfChldrn

 

*Snip*

Really, I find the whole concept of "Player Skill" pretty laughable. Most pro play in any game genre is almost entirely based on abusing exploits in game mechanics, min/maxing based on the (typically ONE) way to play the game. When I really think about it, all "Skill" is pretty meaningless and laughable, no matter what you're competing in or playing.

*Snip*

Say what? So you would say that in sports, athletes just exploit and use almost no skill? Because e-sports is exactly the same. And no, it's all skills. Look up League of Legends, Starcraft, DotA, Call of Duty, Unreal etc. And tell me they 'exploit'. Really.. some people.

Please don't compare a person clicking the mouse to athletes who acually make use of every muscle in their body and really really work hard physicaly and mentaly on daily basis. Sitting on couch on your ass whole day and clicking mouse doesn't make you an athlete. Jeez.

The sole fact you consider athletics a "higher skill" or real skill compared to mouse clickers proves my point.

 

What determines "Player Skill" is perspective, is a joke, is laughable. Someone who is stronger than other people is suddenly more skilled than someone with experience playing 1 specific video game alot and abusing mechanics with some talent involved? (The talent of abusing those mechanics, of course).

 

Although I do applaud you for showing this poster that Athletes cannot exploit or min/max (although they sometimes try, with steroids, or intense training) and Athletics are more about inante (body) talent/composition more than about experience/knowledge of metagame.

Athletes do not exploit and use "no skill" because you cannot alter physics, which make up the majority of the game rules. You can, however, exploit the hell out of computer program code because it DOES have specific well defined rules. They also do not use "no skill" and exploit when they play sports or olympic feats simply because "Player Skill" isn't real. It's simply a concept which is laughable at best.

 

Throw a pro football player in a battlefield, and soon his "player skill" is nothing compared to the veterans alongside him.

Throw a Starcraft 2 champion in a bakery and ask him to make an amazing tasting pie.

Ask a Counter Strike champion to play Call of Duty and do just as good.

Tell a League of Legends player to play a low ELO gimped champion and win entirely because of "player skill".

 

Player Skill is irrelevant when those units in a video game mathematically calculate a loss before gameplay occurs. And to be honest, if Pro Play in League of Legends is almost entirely about "denying" a dragon or "getting lucky on a gank" and a few key events determine the winner, it's obvious that the goal is about exploiting Gold Accumulation far more than it is about "Player Skill" and that "Player Skill" can more specifically be defined as "Deny Skill" far more than it would be considered the ability to accurately, quickly, and intelligent play a character in a fight.

You're the best of the best of the best? I'm sorry, but you have a knife. I'm holding a gun. Game over.

  LeegOfChldrn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/11/11
Posts: 369

 
OP  4/01/12 5:16:58 AM#12
Originally posted by Worstluck

Pretty tall soapbox mate.  I hope you have some thick glasses in order to see us down here!

 

How you went from talking about how WoW pvp is finely tuned to the downfall of our public education system is beyond me.  I suppose on second thought those two statements are somewhat related.

 

EDIT:  Oh looks like you removed the wow pvp stuff.  Ahh well.  Have fun!

My apologies, I did not remove anything but finished my rant. I had posted far too early by accident as in the middle of my post, my cat clicked "Post Message" before I was finished.

  LeegOfChldrn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/11/11
Posts: 369

 
OP  4/01/12 5:22:53 AM#13
Originally posted by fivoroth
Originally posted by Ankur
Originally posted by fivoroth

Lol w0t? It's only FPS. Go play Starcraft 2 and lets see if you can get into grandmaster league. But again I am pretty sure I will be the one laughing when you can't even get into gold league. That game is all about player skill. 

/facepalm

You just proved what he was saying.

So his theory that there's no player skill and that people only exploit the game is proved by my Starcraft example>?

You might want to take a step back and try to find in my post where I stated "there is no player skill" in video games.

 

1) I never said there is absolutely no skill. Please do not jump to rash assumptions and instead read and comprehend what you read as it is stated. If someone says "There is almost no skill involved..." they are not stating there is no skill involved. The word "Almost" changes the sentence and actually communicates that skill IS involved.

2) Multiple times in this thread I have made it clear that "Player Skill" is based on perspective and isn't a real thing because the definition if self-defined and different for every game.

3) Once more, since I believe you need to read it, I never said there is no skill involved at all. Instead, I stated that there is more skill in exploiting the rules (often mathematics / combat calculations)  than there is in what people typically believe is player skill (fast clicking, reaction time, memory management, whatever).

4) Typically, Pro Players of RTS games are NOT also Pro PLayers of FPS games. Very often pro players of one specific game do not qualify for the end of tournaments for a different FPS game. (Just the same as basketball players who turn into golfers do not have equivalent success in the latter than they did in the former).

 

Should I even go on? You have already proven me right with your post and shown yourself to fail to understand what I have even stated. Nowhere will you find me stating what you claim, that "there's no player skill and that people ONLY exploit the game".

  Pilnkplonk

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/02/10
Posts: 1566

4/01/12 5:25:49 AM#14
Originally posted by Ankur
Originally posted by causs
Originally posted by LeegOfChldrn

 

*Snip*

Really, I find the whole concept of "Player Skill" pretty laughable. Most pro play in any game genre is almost entirely based on abusing exploits in game mechanics, min/maxing based on the (typically ONE) way to play the game. When I really think about it, all "Skill" is pretty meaningless and laughable, no matter what you're competing in or playing.

*Snip*

Say what? So you would say that in sports, athletes just exploit and use almost no skill? Because e-sports is exactly the same. And no, it's all skills. Look up League of Legends, Starcraft, DotA, Call of Duty, Unreal etc. And tell me they 'exploit'. Really.. some people.

Please don't compare a person clicking the mouse to athletes who acually make use of every muscle in their body and really really work hard physicaly and mentaly on daily basis. Sitting on couch on your ass whole day and clicking mouse doesn't make you an athlete. Jeez.

Don't be daft. Chess is an olympic sport.

And people who play "boardgame" sports professionally such as chess, poker, bridge and pool have to take care of their body as well as their brains. You can't play chess well if your body is not in optimal condition, ensuring the proper flow of blood in your brain and not bothering you with pains, cramps etc. And, believe it or not, these mentally intensive sports are as dangerous if not more than physically intensive ones. Burnouts, mental breakdowns and schizophrenia are all as real and as dangerous as cracked bones and pugilistic dementia.

  LeegOfChldrn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/11/11
Posts: 369

 
OP  4/01/12 5:29:48 AM#15
Originally posted by Pilnkplonk
Originally posted by Ankur
Originally posted by causs
Originally posted by LeegOfChldrn

 

*Snip*

Really, I find the whole concept of "Player Skill" pretty laughable. Most pro play in any game genre is almost entirely based on abusing exploits in game mechanics, min/maxing based on the (typically ONE) way to play the game. When I really think about it, all "Skill" is pretty meaningless and laughable, no matter what you're competing in or playing.

*Snip*

Say what? So you would say that in sports, athletes just exploit and use almost no skill? Because e-sports is exactly the same. And no, it's all skills. Look up League of Legends, Starcraft, DotA, Call of Duty, Unreal etc. And tell me they 'exploit'. Really.. some people.

Please don't compare a person clicking the mouse to athletes who acually make use of every muscle in their body and really really work hard physicaly and mentaly on daily basis. Sitting on couch on your ass whole day and clicking mouse doesn't make you an athlete. Jeez.

Don't be daft. Chess is an olympic sport.

We're not too far off making professional video gaming an olympic sport. I'm sure the pro tournaments with millions of dollars flowing through have really influenced things, even if only slowly.

  snoop101

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/07/07
Posts: 389

4/01/12 5:30:49 AM#16
Originally posted by Ankur
Originally posted by causs
Originally posted by LeegOfChldrn

 

*Snip*

Really, I find the whole concept of "Player Skill" pretty laughable. Most pro play in any game genre is almost entirely based on abusing exploits in game mechanics, min/maxing based on the (typically ONE) way to play the game. When I really think about it, all "Skill" is pretty meaningless and laughable, no matter what you're competing in or playing.

*Snip*

Say what? So you would say that in sports, athletes just exploit and use almost no skill? Because e-sports is exactly the same. And no, it's all skills. Look up League of Legends, Starcraft, DotA, Call of Duty, Unreal etc. And tell me they 'exploit'. Really.. some people.

Please don't compare a person clicking the mouse to athletes who acually make use of every muscle in their body and really really work hard physicaly and mentaly on daily basis. Sitting on couch on your ass whole day and clicking mouse doesn't make you an athlete. Jeez.

I understand what you mean as I grew up playing soccer, but at the same time its like saying a pool player is a lazy drunk that sits around the bar and just plays with a stick.

 

In Korea once you hit a specific age you cant play starcraft 2 anymore as your timing gets slower. In North America we dont take esports serious, but in other places in the world they are treated like athletes.

  Ankur

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/12
Posts: 340

4/01/12 5:30:55 AM#17
Originally posted by Pilnkplonk
Originally posted by Ankur
Originally posted by causs
Originally posted by LeegOfChldrn

 

*Snip*

Really, I find the whole concept of "Player Skill" pretty laughable. Most pro play in any game genre is almost entirely based on abusing exploits in game mechanics, min/maxing based on the (typically ONE) way to play the game. When I really think about it, all "Skill" is pretty meaningless and laughable, no matter what you're competing in or playing.

*Snip*

Say what? So you would say that in sports, athletes just exploit and use almost no skill? Because e-sports is exactly the same. And no, it's all skills. Look up League of Legends, Starcraft, DotA, Call of Duty, Unreal etc. And tell me they 'exploit'. Really.. some people.

Please don't compare a person clicking the mouse to athletes who acually make use of every muscle in their body and really really work hard physicaly and mentaly on daily basis. Sitting on couch on your ass whole day and clicking mouse doesn't make you an athlete. Jeez.

Don't be daft. Chess is an olympic sport.

It took you long enough. i was just wondering how anyone didn't reply with 'CHESS is olympic sport'.

Since we are comparing gaming skills to those of pro athletes in sports, The day a video game comes up with complexity of chess and actually require that much concentration and mental stimulation  i would whole heartdly agree with you.

  Skuz

Novice Member

Joined: 12/25/08
Posts: 1038

"If you can''t laugh at yourself there''s always someone around to show you how it''s done!"

4/01/12 5:31:10 AM#18
Originally posted by Ankur
Originally posted by causs
Originally posted by LeegOfChldrn

 

*Snip*

Really, I find the whole concept of "Player Skill" pretty laughable. Most pro play in any game genre is almost entirely based on abusing exploits in game mechanics, min/maxing based on the (typically ONE) way to play the game. When I really think about it, all "Skill" is pretty meaningless and laughable, no matter what you're competing in or playing.

*Snip*

Say what? So you would say that in sports, athletes just exploit and use almost no skill? Because e-sports is exactly the same. And no, it's all skills. Look up League of Legends, Starcraft, DotA, Call of Duty, Unreal etc. And tell me they 'exploit'. Really.. some people.

Please don't compare a person clicking the mouse to athletes who acually make use of every muscle in their body and really really work hard physicaly and mentaly on daily basis. Sitting on couch on your ass whole day and clicking mouse doesn't make you an athlete. Jeez.

Quoted for truth.

Skill & "pro-play" are extremely subjective, I've beaten the hell out of people who proudly proclaimed themselves so-called pro-players & done it on a repeated basis, I do not consider myself a pro, just a player but no matter how good you think you are you, you will have a nemesis out there who will make you look like a moron & they may not even be that good in the first place, but their playstyle will so confound you that you'll get beaten like a chump.

Attitude of an elitist jerk won't win you friends, notoriety perhaps but people avoiding you is much more likely to happen because you're a pillock than because you are such a leet player. Most of the pro-players that mouth off are just smack-talking fools, "real pros" don't need to self-advertise, they go win World-level competitions & have the prize money to back it up.

  Ankur

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/12
Posts: 340

4/01/12 5:35:47 AM#19
Originally posted by snoop101
Originally posted by Ankur
Originally posted by causs
Originally posted by LeegOfChldrn

 

*Snip*

Really, I find the whole concept of "Player Skill" pretty laughable. Most pro play in any game genre is almost entirely based on abusing exploits in game mechanics, min/maxing based on the (typically ONE) way to play the game. When I really think about it, all "Skill" is pretty meaningless and laughable, no matter what you're competing in or playing.

*Snip*

Say what? So you would say that in sports, athletes just exploit and use almost no skill? Because e-sports is exactly the same. And no, it's all skills. Look up League of Legends, Starcraft, DotA, Call of Duty, Unreal etc. And tell me they 'exploit'. Really.. some people.

Please don't compare a person clicking the mouse to athletes who acually make use of every muscle in their body and really really work hard physicaly and mentaly on daily basis. Sitting on couch on your ass whole day and clicking mouse doesn't make you an athlete. Jeez.

I understand what you mean as I grew up playing soccer, but at the same time its like saying a pool player is a lazy drunk that sits around the bar and just plays with a stick.

 

In Korea once you hit a specific age you cant play starcraft 2 anymore as your timing gets slower. In North America we dont take esports serious, but in other places in the world they are treated like athletes.

My cousin  used to be a professional pool player before he damaged his shoulder in bike accident. And you would be surprised the amount of actual physical exercise and routine he had to follow every day. it was not same as sitting ona  couch and move a finger.

  beyondredx

Novice Member

Joined: 1/27/08
Posts: 7

4/01/12 5:44:36 AM#20

Sounds like your getting your @$$ handed to ya and come here to QQ. Next.....

Next time I hope they, Your post has been been flagged as possible spam. Please complete the Captcha form below to verify you're human. And not a QQ'er.

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