Originally posted by Sarariel

Does anyone else miss that?

Like the old WoW.. No loading screens for the inn's or zone changes. Just a change of weather and music.

I miss that too, badly. That's the one feature that makes or breaks a virtual world for me.

Originally posted by Sarariel

Does anyone else miss that?

Like the old WoW.. No loading screens for the inn's or zone changes. Just a change of weather and music.

Yeah, it's amazing how much it adds to the world. It's not part of the gameplay but makes the game so much better and immersive.

I recall TERA selling with "open seamless world, no loading screens" kind of phrase in its website. That actually got my interest up for that game looking at all these other new mmorpgs coming and each of them have loading screens like TSW and GW2 (TOR having load screen horror house, where ever you turn there's a loading screen).

Then again, TSW and GW2 seems like better games gameplay wise to me, TERA has nice looking combat but TSW with the fresh setting and interesting char building with other nice things like investigation and stuff past kill 10 rats, GW2 with dynamic events and other potentially interesting things. TERA might be seamless but it's just hack'n'slash till the world ends, afaik there's nothing else to do in the world than repeat the same old kill 10 pigs quest untill you realize you've seen all there is to the game... The combat seems fun but will it alone keep my interest up? I highly doubt /shrug.

Originally posted by Sarariel

Does anyone else miss that?

Like the old WoW.. No loading screens for the inn's or zone changes. Just a change of weather and music.

Tell that to Average Joe who wants "up-to-date graphics" and who doesn't want to upgrade his rig.

Originally posted by Sarariel

Does anyone else miss that?

Like the old WoW.. No loading screens for the inn's or zone changes. Just a change of weather and music.

Lol. I really thought about the early real open world mmos.. but WoW? Wow got instances(loading screen) several zones(loading screens), maybe your memories betrayed you... but why at hell everyone reference WoW for things, it didnt have, or was not in particular any good. ( i heared references about open world pvp from wow, and this is as ridiculus as this reference)

But to the topic, yeah, i would like to see a real open world mmo, with Dungeons(without loading screen), where you just go into the underworld(i can remember one game, dont know if it was either a mmo or a singleplayer rpg, where there was no loading screen for dungeons).

But on the other side, because i know about the technical difficulties and trade-off, unavoidable lagging from time to time, i dont know if i would want it in a competive area.. it just sucks if you are in a fight, and will be freezed to complete inability to act because of said lag. But on the other side, the world feel much more immersiv, and well.. as one world, and not so much as just another level map.

Originally posted by Cthulhu23

Vanguard is going F2P this summer.  Doesn't get any more open and seamless than that.  Even the dungeons and raids are non-instanced.  

I never played Vanguard.. were there loading screens for dungeons. Because in a lot of games, dungeons were not instanced, but you neverthelss got a loading screen, as usually for cities(DAoC as example).

Lineage 2 still has the best I have seen. Just recently went back and started over from scratch. Its a grind type game so if you into those try it.

Originally posted by Apraxis

Originally posted by Sarariel

Does anyone else miss that?

Like the old WoW.. No loading screens for the inn's or zone changes. Just a change of weather and music.

Lol. I really thought about the early real open world mmos.. but WoW? Wow got instances(loading screen) several zones(loading screens), maybe your memories betrayed you... but why at hell everyone reference WoW for things, it didnt have, or was not in particular any good.

The poster you quoted was talking specifically about things LIKE Inns and zones, and he is correct. There are no loading screens for entering an Inn or a shop, and you can walk/run/fly/ride from one end of a continent to the other without instancing.

Regarding dungeons - honestly, I can't see how non-instanced dungeons could work. Wouldn't there be piles of players/parties standing around waiting for the boss to spawn, everyone's fingers on the targetting key so their group would be the first to tag him?

Originally posted by Mannish

Lineage 2 still has the best I have seen. Just recently went back and started over from scratch. Its a grind type game so if you into those try it.

Well.. maybe my memories betray me here, but if i remember right, you got a loading screen for any city/dungeon, it wasnt really any different as the most mmorpg at this time, and not really better or even outstanding. But hell, it is a long time ago i played that.. and i am not 100% sure of it.

Originally posted by Fargol

Originally posted by Apraxis

Originally posted by Sarariel

Does anyone else miss that?

Like the old WoW.. No loading screens for the inn's or zone changes. Just a change of weather and music.

Lol. I really thought about the early real open world mmos.. but WoW? Wow got instances(loading screen) several zones(loading screens), maybe your memories betrayed you... but why at hell everyone reference WoW for things, it didnt have, or was not in particular any good.

The poster you quoted was talking specifically about things LIKE Inns and zones, and he is correct. There are no loading screens for entering an Inn or a shop, and you can walk/run/fly/ride from one end of a continent to the other without instancing.

Regarding dungeons - honestly, I can't see how non-instanced dungeons could work. Wouldn't there be piles of players/parties standing around waiting for the boss to spawn, everyone's fingers on the targetting key so their group would be the first to tag him?

Eastern plaguelands? WoW was zoned, both continents, eastern plaguelands and a few other zones within the two contintents, where you got a loading screen. Inns and Taverns? Hmm.. i dont know one game with a loading screen for Inns and Taverns.. but though, never player SWTOR or AoC, which were both heavily plagued from loading screens as i heard of.

Darkfall is by far the best when it comes to a pure open world.

• Role-playing, strategy, and shooter action in a MMOG
• The largest handcrafted online world of its kind.
• Over 10 thousand concurrent players per game world.
• The largest MMORPG battles ever - involving thousands.
• Ultimate PvP action, the #1 choice of top players and clans.
• Seamless, zoneless, non-instanced world. No invisible walls.
• No safe zones. Full loot. PvP everywhere with accountability.
• No more leveling. Improve the skills you use.
• Fight on mounts, ships, man cannons and vehicles.
• Siege and conquer cities, build and protect your own.
• Craft any item in the world and put your name on it.

Originally posted by Apraxis

Originally posted by Cthulhu23

Vanguard is going F2P this summer.  Doesn't get any more open and seamless than that.  Even the dungeons and raids are non-instanced.  

I never played Vanguard.. were there loading screens for dungeons. Because in a lot of games, dungeons were not instanced, but you neverthelss got a loading screen, as usually for cities(DAoC as example).

Vanguard doesnt have ANY instanced dungeons. They are all open world dungeons where multiple groups can run around in. And there are tonnes of them, most players have never even been to them all. As a consequence the respawns can be a bit brutal, so dont expect any quick dungeon runs and wipes can be pretty demoralising as you have to start back at the entrance.

I miss the open worlds too.  Exploration seems infinitely more interesting when you have a large world, and the load screens of instanced games breaks immersion for me.

If you are serious about a large zone-less MMO, and can pull yourselves away from lighting bolts, dragons and elves for a moment, go look at WWIIOL.

WWIIOL is ten years old. I played this for the first five years it was out.

The map is large, and your actions do make a real diffrence in the outcome of campaigns that can last for weeks or even months. It's all on one server and played 24/7 by people from all over the world.

I dont care about loading screens. What I miss is playing a game with a LARGE world to explore rather than one that feels like a series of playpens.

I miss walking into a cave or some ruins and actually running into other adventurers. None of this instanced monkey crap.

I miss when each area was unique and not a copy of another area's map with background items simply placed in different spots.

I miss when monsters behaved differently, or different monsters appeared during certain times of the day, and when night-time meant you'd better have a light on you or you'd be near-blind stumbling through the dark.

Those were the days.

Originally posted by Cthulhu23

Vanguard is going F2P this summer.  Doesn't get any more open and seamless than that.  Even the dungeons and raids are non-instanced.  

Same here. AC had several levels of freedom that just don't exist in MMOs today.

Originally posted by Drakxii

I miss when MMOs were worlds and not the just the next game.

^^^^^

THIS

Originally posted by Fargol

Regarding dungeons - honestly, I can't see how non-instanced dungeons could work. Wouldn't there be piles of players/parties standing around waiting for the boss to spawn, everyone's fingers on the targetting key so their group would be the first to tag him?

The MMORPG Genre has had to evolve rather quickly to accomodate the various play styles of 'gamers' coming to massively multiplayer online games.

Unfortunately, I think elements like non-instanced dungeons are a thing of the past mainly due to several key elements:

Element One: Currency sellers camp open-world bosses waiting for a raid party to form nearby, then they assign a member with low latency to watch the raid party and tag the boss just before the raid party launches a full-scale attack.

Thanks to poor game mechanics (depending on the game), once the boss has been tagged by one of these currency seller guilds, even if the raid party stops attacking, the currency sellers leave someone nearby to keep the creature tagged for their team. They will also quickly sabotage a legitimate raiding party's attempt on a boss in order to "wipe" the raid.

Currency sellers are a plague on the MMO community, and have basically ruined the genre for any game developer looking to create a game that allows for realism and open world enviroments.

Element Two: A growing problem in massively multiplayer games is a form of sociopath known as 'griefers'. They are a major problem in any MMO game with "open world" elements. They seem to flock to these types of games (and free betas) like ants to a picnic. 'Griefers' tend to be miserable, embittered individuals that have absolutely nothing better to do than to spread their personal misery around like herpes.

Lurking around with some newly acquired gear and weapons, bored with the usual activites that the game offers OR (more than likely)--- playing solo because their personalities are so foul that no one on the server wants anything to do with them, and they were kicked from their last guild for being thankless 'loot whores' and 'ninja looters'--- 'griefers' gravitate to any sort of activity that can give them some sick measure of contentment between bouts of masturbating, So...

...they find a way to hover around difficult Open World encounters, usually around prime playing hours, hoping that some guild or raid group will make an attempt on the encounter so the 'griefer' can sabotage the attempt by using a taunt ability to alter the fight in an undesired direction, throwing the raid group off-balance, and "wiping" them.

The 'griefer' isn't upset by the public beratement and negative feedback they receive on forums and public chat channels, because they are finally getting the sociopathic form of attention that they want, largely due to being neglected "latch-key kids" in dire need of proper discipline and nurturing as children, neither of which they received.

Sadly, this widespread, cancerous problem is growing at an alarming rate, and doesn't seem to be slowing down, especially in games with multiple factions, where they are mistakenly lauded by other sociopaths of the same faction as some sort of heroic figure. Even worse, some companies thrive on encouraging this sort of behavior as an intended game mechanic, most likely due to the mentality of the developers working for the company that made said game.

Element Three: Poor game design can be a major factor in ruining the experience for players, which is obvious, BUT---so can greedy, disrepectful, so-called "competitive" raiding guilds vying for the same open world target at approximately the same time. This can sometimes be entirely untrue, as old EverQuest raiding would reveal.

In EverQuest, with the slow spawn times and rarity of some raid bosses, some guilds would leave one or two player's characters parked nearby a known spawn point, and log in from time to time to detect whether or not the boss was active. Some would do this for the sake of completing a long quest, but others would do this merely for the sake of hoarding whatever items the particular raid boss might drop.

The slow spawn times, the unsavory character of some players, and the need to keep some level of difficulty in that particular zone to make reaching the boss a "fun" and challenging element of the game, making the race to the boss an unpleasant and problematic experience.

Thus, this all combined into a need for a new solution to raiding and dungeon bosses; namely, instanced dungeons.

So, to your point, I'd agree.  There is no successful way to return to the days of an Open World dungeon or raid environment without these elements ruining the experience.

Originally posted by Fargol

Regarding dungeons - honestly, I can't see how non-instanced dungeons could work. Wouldn't there be piles of players/parties standing around waiting for the boss to spawn, everyone's fingers on the targetting key so their group would be the first to tag him?

Stop thinking in terms of WOW. That's not the only way to make MMO content. :)

Log into L2, UO or AC and you can see players picking a section of the dungeon and doing their own thing - plenty of dungeon to go around with plenty of different levels of content so you can throttle your challenge and adjust for group size even within the same dungeon.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Fargol

Regarding dungeons - honestly, I can't see how non-instanced dungeons could work. Wouldn't there be piles of players/parties standing around waiting for the boss to spawn, everyone's fingers on the targetting key so their group would be the first to tag him?

Stop thinking in terms of WOW. That's not the only way to make MMO content. :)

Log into L2, UO or AC and you can see players picking a section of the dungeon and doing their own thing - plenty of dungeon to go around with plenty of different levels of content so you can throttle your challenge and adjust for group size even within the same dungeon.

 

 

Given that many games only have 5000 players on a server, if everyone is in the same dungeon that is a failure of game design. I agree that some people haven't played enough non WoW MMOs to understand how things can be different. Although I would be interested to see a dungeon which could intentionally host 5000 players. Well, maybe less because lag.

Originally posted by BartDaCat

The MMORPG Genre has had to evolve rather quickly to accomodate the various play styles of 'gamers' coming to massively multiplayer online games.

Unfortunately, I think elements like non-instanced dungeons are a thing of the past mainly due to several key elements:

Element One: Currency sellers camp open-world bosses waiting for a raid party to form nearby, then they assign a member with low latency to watch the raid party and tag the boss just before the raid party launches a full-scale attack.

Thanks to poor game mechanics (depending on the game), once the boss has been tagged by one of these currency seller guilds, even if the raid party stops attacking, the currency sellers leave someone nearby to keep the creature tagged for their team. They will also quickly sabotage a legitimate raiding party's attempt on a boss in order to "wipe" the raid.

Currency sellers are a plague on the MMO community, and have basically ruined the genre for any game developer looking to create a game that allows for realism and open world enviroments.

Element Two: A growing problem in massively multiplayer games is a form of sociopath known as 'griefers'. They are a major problem in any MMO game with "open world" elements. They seem to flock to these types of games (and free betas) like ants to a picnic. 'Griefers' tend to be miserable, embittered individuals that have absolutely nothing better to do than to spread their personal misery around like herpes.

Lurking around with some newly acquired gear and weapons, bored with the usual activites that the game offers OR (more than likely)--- playing solo because their personalities are so foul that no one on the server wants anything to do with them, and they were kicked from their last guild for being thankless 'loot whores' and 'ninja looters'--- 'griefers' gravitate to any sort of activity that can give them some sick measure of contentment between bouts of masturbating, So...

...they find a way to hover around difficult Open World encounters, usually around prime playing hours, hoping that some guild or raid group will make an attempt on the encounter so the 'griefer' can sabotage the attempt by using a taunt ability to alter the fight in an undesired direction, throwing the raid group off-balance, and "wiping" them.

The 'griefer' isn't upset by the public beratement and negative feedback they receive on forums and public chat channels, because they are finally getting the sociopathic form of attention that they want, largely due to being neglected "latch-key kids" in dire need of proper discipline and nurturing as children, neither of which they received.

Sadly, this widespread, cancerous problem is growing at an alarming rate, and doesn't seem to be slowing down, especially in games with multiple factions, where they are mistakenly lauded by other sociopaths of the same faction as some sort of heroic figure. Even worse, some companies thrive on encouraging this sort of behavior as an intended game mechanic, most likely due to the mentality of the developers working for the company that made said game.

Element Three: Poor game design can be a major factor in ruining the experience for players, which is obvious, BUT---so can greedy, disrepectful, so-called "competitive" raiding guilds vying for the same open world target at approximately the same time. This can sometimes be entirely untrue, as old EverQuest raiding would reveal.

In EverQuest, with the slow spawn times and rarity of some raid bosses, some guilds would leave one or two player's characters parked nearby a known spawn point, and log in from time to time to detect whether or not the boss was active. Some would do this for the sake of completing a long quest, but others would do this merely for the sake of hoarding whatever items the particular raid boss might drop.

The slow spawn times, the unsavory character of some players, and the need to keep some level of difficulty in that particular zone to make reaching the boss a "fun" and challenging element of the game, making the race to the boss an unpleasant and problematic experience.

Thus, this all combined into a need for a new solution to raiding and dungeon bosses; namely, instanced dungeons.

So, to your point, I'd agree.  There is no successful way to return to the days of an Open World dungeon or raid environment without these elements ruining the experience.

FFA pvp with guild alliances, penalties for death (that involve more than respawning at basically the same location), and a player system of policing the social deviants.

These "key elements" were solved way back in EQ on Rallos Zek 10 years ago.