Topic is new and refreshing.

Responses are surprising and thought provoking.

Thread should not be locked.

Originally posted by VowOfSilence

Looks like few people are aware of the problem with WvW, or they just like to pretend that it doesn't exist (which seems to be the typical fanboy reaction these days).

 

So, the real problem is: gems -> gold -> influence -> WvW advantages.

 

Ingame footage (at 1:50): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zi6GAbVATOA&hd=1

Discussion: Tales of Tyria #24: Gems to Gemonade (starting at 1:01:00): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAtXE3AftX8

 

Maybe this will be in the final game, maybe it won't. Right now, it's in, and Anet made no statement regarding that feature.

So, yeah... stop denying that the cash shop gives WvW advantages. Time to enter the next stage of denial: Getting hyped over WvW cash advantages, because they are actually the bestest thing that ever happened to MMOs! I mean... if they weren't, then GW2 wouldn't have them, am i right?

Well done for actually bringing up a somewhat legitimate point regarding the cash shops.  Too many are confusing the debate with talk of exp boosts and purchasing siege blueprints - which is plain stupid.

With regard to your argument, the point really is how much of an advantage does influence give?  Is this a game-changing advantage that will make it feel like you have to purchase influence in order to compete?  (I mean, that is the problem with Pay-to-win...  you feel sub-par if you dont spend real money)

Not withstanding the fact that you have to find a buyer for said gems, as far as I am aware influence can only affect the keep your guild owns.  I am also under the impression that the WvWvW buffs you can get through this are not very powerful.

If you can provide some good evidence that purchasing influence will be rampant and game changing - im all ears.  At this stage though I think you need to calm down and be rational about this.  Stop making this a war between fanboys and haters and instead lets have a proper discussion about whether this is something which needs to be brought to the attention of arenanet.

Originally posted by Pigozz

0:13

Earn influence by logging every day, playing events, dungeons, pvp and other activities with guild members

.

.

.

Now where the F**** you found out you can actually BUY influence with gold??

Tell me please

By buying a round of drinks with gold.  Actually go to the clip the OP linked and you will see.  No need to rage now.  You can indeed buy influence in the current beta.

Originally posted by Wolvards

Originally posted by st4t1ck

Originally posted by Wolvards

Originally posted by VowOfSilence

Discussion: Tales of Tyria #24: Gems to Gemonade (starting at 1:01:00): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAtXE3AftX8

 

 

Watch from 1:05:00 to say 1:06:00

Ok you win, Gw2 is your definition of p2w, congratulations. Now follow your beliefs and dont play the game. good day sir(s)

Hold on there mister, i do NOT think it is P2W, i'm trying to show people that it is not, just watch the video from 1 hour to 1 hour 7 minutes, it shows both side of the argument, i'm trying to prove it's not P2W without going the fanboi route

sorry bout that, i quoted the wrong post, if you scroll up i deleted the quote before you even posted :) my bad for the misunderstanding though.  im just of all the treads,  time to move along if you dont like it post in one of the million threads already there for it.

Originally posted by gainesvilleg

Originally posted by Wolvards

Originally posted by VowOfSilence

Discussion: Tales of Tyria #24: Gems to Gemonade (starting at 1:01:00): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAtXE3AftX8

 

 

Watch from 1:05:00 to say 1:06:00

Well, if you watch that clip it is a few guys trying to convince themselves that, although you can pay real money for advantages, it doesn't matter because;

1) The advantages are "small."  But then they also said it might help you survive "2 or 3 more hits" which in PVP is a HUGE advantage between balanced players

2) They say if you don't like it "Bring more people or avoid that keep" which basically is again admitting the advantage

 

I'm afraid that clip just makes it more and more clear, even amongst the uber-fans who were rationalizing this, that it is indeed pay2win.  You can argue on the size of the advantage, but nobody who knows and understands the system says there is NO advantage.

You have an opinion, i have an opinion, you heard the same thing i heard and took it a different way, there is no way you will convince me there is a "real" advantage, sure there is a 5% bonus for one trait at one keep for one guild, whoopie, and there is no way i will convince you other wise, so how about you don't but the game, and i will, done, no need to start a bickermatch that you will just blatantly say i'm wrong, because you only take half of what i'm saying into context? sound good?

Originally posted by gainesvilleg

Originally posted by Pigozz

0:13

Earn influence by logging every day, playing events, dungeons, pvp and other activities with guild members

.

.

.

Now where the F**** you found out you can actually BUY influence with gold??

Tell me please

By buying a round of drinks with gold.  Actually go to the clip the OP linked and you will see.  No need to rage now.  You can indeed buy influence in the current beta.

I remember seeing this in the vids too. Basically, you can buy buffs that affects the immediate area of the one fort, keep, supply depot, whatever your guild claims, giving you a little home field advantage in WvW. Of course, they also forget to mention that if no one is defending your keep the buffs are wasted and you lose it anyhow, or an undermanned keep will still fall as well.

Originally posted by st4t1ck

Originally posted by Wolvards

Originally posted by st4t1ck

Originally posted by Wolvards

Originally posted by VowOfSilence

Discussion: Tales of Tyria #24: Gems to Gemonade (starting at 1:01:00): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAtXE3AftX8

 

 

Watch from 1:05:00 to say 1:06:00

Ok you win, Gw2 is your definition of p2w, congratulations. Now follow your beliefs and dont play the game. good day sir(s)

Hold on there mister, i do NOT think it is P2W, i'm trying to show people that it is not, just watch the video from 1 hour to 1 hour 7 minutes, it shows both side of the argument, i'm trying to prove it's not P2W without going the fanboi route

sorry bout that, i quoted the wrong post, if you scroll up i deleted the quote before you even posted :) my bad for the misunderstanding though.  im just of all the treads,  time to move along if you dont like it post in one of the million threads already there for it.

:) good! i was going to trollolol you, no j/k i feel the same, he took this 2 hour video, and used ONE minute of it to prove his point, when within 5 minutes HIS point was shot down, time to move on.

First, are you NOT tired of these stupid threads. As I said, go away if you don't like cash shops. People QQ about xp boosts? Really? Who cares about xp boosts lol. 

Now people are complaining that the blueprients cost gold lol. You do realise that kinda of money means nothing in the game. It's like complaining that 1g in WoW is a lot. 

Second, I hope those retards who leaked the NDA get banned and get their names blacklisted. There is a reason there is an NDA in place so that companies can experiment. But then you have morons who leak info. Hope they get banned, I really do.

That video someone linked and told to watch 1:05 to 1:06 it's actually interesting to watch a bit further where one guy says small boosts can make a huge difference.

Originally posted by Wolvards

Originally posted by gainesvilleg

Originally posted by Wolvards

Originally posted by VowOfSilence

Discussion: Tales of Tyria #24: Gems to Gemonade (starting at 1:01:00): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAtXE3AftX8

 

 

Watch from 1:05:00 to say 1:06:00

Well, if you watch that clip it is a few guys trying to convince themselves that, although you can pay real money for advantages, it doesn't matter because;

1) The advantages are "small."  But then they also said it might help you survive "2 or 3 more hits" which in PVP is a HUGE advantage between balanced players

2) They say if you don't like it "Bring more people or avoid that keep" which basically is again admitting the advantage

 

I'm afraid that clip just makes it more and more clear, even amongst the uber-fans who were rationalizing this, that it is indeed pay2win.  You can argue on the size of the advantage, but nobody who knows and understands the system says there is NO advantage.

You have an opinion, i have an opinion, you heard the same thing i heard and took it a different way, there is no way you will convince me there is a "real" advantage, sure there is a 5% bonus for one trait at one keep for one guild, whoopie, and there is no way i will convince you other wise, so how about you don't but the game, and i will, done, no need to start a bickermatch that you will just blatantly say i'm wrong, because you only take half of what i'm saying into context? sound good?

I am saying you are wrong because there is indeed advantages you can purchase for real money, which by even the most lenient definition of pay2win is indeed pay2win.  Pay for advantages.

Even the uber-fans in the youtube clip you posted plain admitted it is an advantage, why can't you?  You can say you don't mind the advantage or it isn't huge, but even the uber-fans are going to have to admit there is an advantage or else you will lose all credibility.

Originally posted by gainesvilleg

Originally posted by Pigozz

0:13

Earn influence by logging every day, playing events, dungeons, pvp and other activities with guild members

.

.

.

Now where the F**** you found out you can actually BUY influence with gold??

Tell me please

By buying a round of drinks with gold.  Actually go to the clip the OP linked and you will see.  No need to rage now.  You can indeed buy influence in the current beta.

Ok Im not cool with that

This NEEDS to be removed

Otherwise Im fine with the entire CS

But this is untolerable

Originally posted by Wolvards

Later on in the vid, they also say that they are "pretty" sure that

1. only one buff active at a time,

2. Those guild buffs only work at your guilds keep,

3. each guild can only hold 1 (ONE) Keep OR Tower

4. This is assuming you have a benifactor, or some rich dude spending upwards of $100 dollars a day to keep up ALL buffs at that ONE keep, which at endgame those buffs are what? 5%? so you have 20 people in the guild defending this keep, fully buffed, and i take 50 people to take this keep, how far will 5% go?

1. Wrong.

2. True for most buffs, but not for all.

3. Afaik, that's true.

4. So, suddenly we're fine with selling stats advantages because they're only "minor"? Seriously, where is the line? What does Anet have to do so the fanboys will finally say "NO. WE DO NOT LIKE THIS"? Sell a "Superior gear of instant pwnage"? Or will people then start to argue that it's fine because "Well, that gear isn't P2W, i can still bring my entire guild to take that 1 guy down. Or I can just farm gold for 100 hours and get the same gear for free! Awesome!"

Originally posted by Pigozz

Originally posted by gainesvilleg

Originally posted by Pigozz

0:13

Earn influence by logging every day, playing events, dungeons, pvp and other activities with guild members

.

.

.

Now where the F**** you found out you can actually BUY influence with gold??

Tell me please

By buying a round of drinks with gold.  Actually go to the clip the OP linked and you will see.  No need to rage now.  You can indeed buy influence in the current beta.

Ok Im not cool with that

This NEEDS to be removed

Otherwise Im fine with the entire CS

But this is untolerable

Yes, and it MAY be removed if the pressure is kept up.  As much as the Anet fans hate us "trolls" for complaining about things like this in the cash shop, the reality is NOW is the time to complain.  Complain loudly and often.  Anet will remove them if they think the community overwhelmingly is against them.

As much as the starry-eyed Anet fans hate us now, they will ultimately thank us "trolls" for forcing Anet to remove the most egregious items.  The word on the street is they have already removed some of them which is good...

Originally posted by gainesvilleg

Originally posted by Wolvards

Originally posted by gainesvilleg

Originally posted by Wolvards

Originally posted by VowOfSilence

Discussion: Tales of Tyria #24: Gems to Gemonade (starting at 1:01:00): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAtXE3AftX8

 

 

Watch from 1:05:00 to say 1:06:00

Well, if you watch that clip it is a few guys trying to convince themselves that, although you can pay real money for advantages, it doesn't matter because;

1) The advantages are "small."  But then they also said it might help you survive "2 or 3 more hits" which in PVP is a HUGE advantage between balanced players

2) They say if you don't like it "Bring more people or avoid that keep" which basically is again admitting the advantage

 

I'm afraid that clip just makes it more and more clear, even amongst the uber-fans who were rationalizing this, that it is indeed pay2win.  You can argue on the size of the advantage, but nobody who knows and understands the system says there is NO advantage.

You have an opinion, i have an opinion, you heard the same thing i heard and took it a different way, there is no way you will convince me there is a "real" advantage, sure there is a 5% bonus for one trait at one keep for one guild, whoopie, and there is no way i will convince you other wise, so how about you don't but the game, and i will, done, no need to start a bickermatch that you will just blatantly say i'm wrong, because you only take half of what i'm saying into context? sound good?

I am saying you are wrong because there is indeed advantages you can purchase for real money, which by even the most lenient definition of pay2win is indeed pay2win.  Pay for advantages.

Even the uber-fans in the youtube clip you posted plain admitted it is an advantage, why can't you?  You can say you don't mind the advantage or it isn't huge, but even the uber-fans are going to have to admit there is an advantage or else you will lose all credibility.

I am saying there is, i'm saying there is a 5% bonus, but i'm also saying that in WvW the only time a 5% bonus will make a REAL difference is if it's somehow 1v1, and you have a homefield advantage, and on top of that, you still have to be a better player than me, or only 5% worse ;) YES YOU CAN BUY AN ADVANTAGE, but it is so small on a real world scenario where TYPICALLY in WvW attackers  have 20+ the numbers of defenders, it isn't going to change the game. you can't buy ALL the buffs, well you can, but you can only have one active, thats what i am saying, i bet almost every guild will have a buff up constantly after 2 weeks of being in game, i see what you are saying, i do, but do you see what I am saying?

First off all, according to the linked video, a person can buy 10,000 influence with 100 gold.  I don't know how hard it is for an entire guild to come up with 100g, but immediately I'm thinking that this isn't exactly something that people are going to need to start P2Wing for.

Second, we have what do the buffs actually do. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Influence According to this, it costs 200 influence to buff one stat +40 for 12 hours (at least that's what it said before, now it's "improved precision"). So first, it costs 2 gold's worth of influence to get this buff. In addition, base value for a stat at level 80 is 916 and stats people try to raise can be around 2000. So if we're still talking about +40, we're talking 2-4% increases.

Think about it so far.  That influence buff is "buying drinks for the week".  Suppose you have 100 people in the guild and have them each contribute a mere 1g per week.  That buys 50 keep buffs for the week, or 7 per day.  Since they last 12 hours, that's over 3 buffs at a time. This isn't P2W, this is pocket change.

Third, you're playing against other servers who presumably will have a proportional population to your own. It's not that you're a P2W guy on your server and you're playing against people on your server who aren't. It's that your server with 5% people who really get into influence boosts are playing against other servers who also have 5% people who are really into influence boosts. Or since they're apparently so cheap, every server will have multiple guilds who are all boosting their own fortifications.

Fourth, this is what you're fighting for. http://www.guildwarsinsider.com/gw2-wvw-map-breakdown/ There are a ton of objectives, so simply going around one, not only to capture other points, but also cut off its supply will certainly be employed. Remember that defenders are what keeps the game from being a zerg-fest. Giving guilds incentives (keep ownership) and buffs to encourage them to defend (remember that there will be two different attacking forces to defend it from) is probably a good thing.

Fifth, buying gems and trading them for gold doesn't create gold. Essentially, if you're buying gems and buying gold off some random guy, then the end result is the same as if that random guy was part of your guild and just donated the gold to the war effort. It's also still subject to supply and demand. If this is something that multiple guilds on multiple servers are all trying to do, then gold prices go up and it becomes harder to do (remember that the AH is across all servers). Gold sinks are also necessary and even 100g here and there is probably one of the more significant ones (in this game of cheap teleportation and no death penalty unless you go downed).

Originally posted by romanator0

I'll just repost what I said in the other thread.

 

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Supply

Doesn't matter how much gold you have. You can't do shit without supply. Do your research next time.

*snap*

But you can boost supply gain for your guild by spending Influence and you can buy Influence directly with gold (up to huge ammounts, even: 1:46 in the Guild vendor vid).

You are talking about whole guilds, why are you assuming that in your guild there wont be enough money to keep buffs going without buying a single gem?

Being objective not saying its good or bad, an advantage means you have something i dont,  homecourt advantage in sports means you have the home crowd and i dont.  You are assuming that all the things people can buy with gold will be exclusive to the people that have bought and sold gems and that is just not proven yet.

Can the system be bad yes, but until you prove to me that i wont have enough money to do all these things by playing the game it means nothing.

Originally posted by VowOfSilence

Originally posted by Wolvards

Later on in the vid, they also say that they are "pretty" sure that

1. only one buff active at a time,

2. Those guild buffs only work at your guilds keep,

3. each guild can only hold 1 (ONE) Keep OR Tower

4. This is assuming you have a benifactor, or some rich dude spending upwards of $100 dollars a day to keep up ALL buffs at that ONE keep, which at endgame those buffs are what? 5%? so you have 20 people in the guild defending this keep, fully buffed, and i take 50 people to take this keep, how far will 5% go?

1. Wrong.

2. True for most buffs, but not for all.

3. Afaik, that's true.

4. So, suddenly we're fine with selling stats advantages because they're only "minor"? Seriously, where is the line? What does Anet have to do so the fanboys will finally say "NO. WE DO NOT LIKE THIS"? Sell a "Superior gear of instant pwnage"? Or will people then start to argue that it's fine because "Well, that gear isn't P2W, i can still bring my entire guild to take that 1 guy down. Or I can just farm gold for 100 hours and get the same gear for free! Awesome!"

Where is the proof? show me the proof and i will admit i am wrong, look if you can prove your side THANK YOU, but you arent, you sre just saying I;m wrong, and i know what ever guild i'm in i will have a buff up constantly because i'm betting they arent hard to get, YES you could buy a 5% bonus, but whose to say that is the only way you can buy it? what if it only takes 20 minutes of farming to aquire it? you really think only people able to buy/sell gems are the only ones that will be able to use guild buffs?

Why is everyone ignoring the simple, basic fact that even if you own and buff a keep, tower, etc. you still have to be there to defend it, be present at the structure to feel any of the benefits? A group determined to take your keep likely will if you're not there to guard it, so it doesn't matter how much you put into giving yourself a minor home-field advantage. The buffs won't help you take more points. They won't help you advance across the map. They help your defenders, a bit. When enemy trebuchet fire rains in from across the map and your walls go down, when your keep lord dude dies, nothing you spent matters. It's no longer your keep.

Err there was no footage of the cash shop. 

And to all those think xp boosts is pay to win that's just moronic. Is the guy who started two weeks before another guy now better than him. Grow up people.