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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » What is your definition of Pay2Win?

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71 posts found
  evolver1972

Novice Member

Joined: 3/18/11
Posts: 1126

What is "real"? How do you define "real"?

 
OP  3/28/12 12:34:58 PM#1

My definition of Pay2Win is a game with a Cash Shop where the shop sells items that actually give you an advantage over someone else, especially in PvP situations.  It does not include XP boosters or anything like that especially if those things are found in game.  Basically, it's armor, or weapons (or anything else) that are overpowered compared to what you can find in the game itself, especially if those things can be used against other players.

 

Areas in the game that are necessary for progression but are locked unless you pay for them are also (by definition) Pay2Win.

 

I would even go so far as to say that it could be gear that allows you to, say get through a 5 man dungeon by yourself, if you can't also get that gear in game.   Or if it's extremely difficult to get that gear in the game.

 

There has been a lot of talk lately about Pay2Win Cash Shops in games, but I believe most of that talk is hyperbole and/or misinformed.  What do you think?

 

 

 

Edit:  Added the comment about areas in the game.

You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

  Unlight

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 2586

3/28/12 12:46:07 PM#2

It's both broad and narrow at the same time: 

Anything that allows another player, through payment of cash, to have a detrimental affect on my gaming experience, is P2W. 

It doesn't even require competition.  Of course, it makes it easier that I don't give a damn what other players are doing most of the time and if they are leveling faster than me or have shinier kit.  THAT does NOT adversely affect my enjoyment.  However, I know for many, that it does.  Maybe I'm just not the jealous type.

  Volkon

Novice Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 3813

Facts do not require fiction for balance.

3/28/12 12:48:19 PM#3

Pay to win, to me, is required purchases from a cash shop needed to either progress through content (locked otherwise) or to compete in PvP. If you can buy a sword for example that practically ensures you'll beat someone that didn't, that's pay to win. If the advanced areas of the game are completely locked off to you unless you cough up the cash, that's pay to win.

 

Necessary advantages.

Oderint, dum metuant.

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5676

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

3/28/12 12:51:44 PM#4

Being P2W or not is a gray area. Someone may perceive something as P2W when others may think its not. Therefore I go case by case. Making a strict definition would be entirely subjective and/or completely useless.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Amaranthar

Novice Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 2171

3/28/12 12:56:52 PM#5

Any RMT at all is Pay-To-Win. Whatever it is, if it has enough value to players that they are willing to pay cash for it, then it has value in the game and those who buy it are ahead of those who don't. They have bought something that other players either can't have, or have to spend time that they didn't (by virtue of the cash purchase) to get.

No matter how you look at it, cash buys something (items, advantages, or time rquirements to get). And that is Pay-To-Win.

Once upon a time....

  Volkon

Novice Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 3813

Facts do not require fiction for balance.

3/28/12 1:02:28 PM#6
Originally posted by Amaranthar

Any RMT at all is Pay-To-Win. Whatever it is, if it has enough value to players that they are willing to pay cash for it, then it has value in the game and those who buy it are ahead of those who don't. They have bought something that other players either can't have, or have to spend time that they didn't (by virtue of the cash purchase) to get.

No matter how you look at it, cash buys something (items, advantages, or time rquirements to get). And that is Pay-To-Win.

So if you buy a pretty dress for your caster and I don't buy one for my burly warrior dude, you win? Personally your definition feels quite a bit too loose. Character slots for altoholics certainly aren't pay to win, but by your definition they seem to be.

Oderint, dum metuant.

  bleyzwun

Novice Member

Joined: 8/29/05
Posts: 1104

3/28/12 1:05:52 PM#7

P2W for me is anything that gives the player more power through money.  I don't consider exp boosts to be p2w, since most pvp happens at end game.  

For me it's more like someone buying a whole set of gear in a few minutes,  that would otherwise take another person a long time to get.  

  Dragonantis

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/16/10
Posts: 971

3/28/12 1:06:14 PM#8

Pay-2-Win: The process of purchasing items or buffs that aid in the advancement of character wealth or ability to levels beyond the normal player.

  evolver1972

Novice Member

Joined: 3/18/11
Posts: 1126

What is "real"? How do you define "real"?

 
OP  3/28/12 1:07:48 PM#9
Originally posted by Volkon

Pay to win, to me, is required purchases from a cash shop needed to either progress through content (locked otherwise) or to compete in PvP. If you can buy a sword for example that practically ensures you'll beat someone that didn't, that's pay to win. If the advanced areas of the game are completely locked off to you unless you cough up the cash, that's pay to win.

 

Necessary advantages.

That's pretty much the way I look at it too.  I should have included the locked areas of a game that are necessary progression in my OP because I agree that would be Pay2Win also.

You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

  Thorbrand

Novice Member

Joined: 3/06/04
Posts: 1217

3/28/12 1:10:21 PM#10

Easy enough if they have Crit pot, full heal pots, haste pots all only from the CS it iwll be P2W. If they don't have these types of items we probably don't need to worry much.

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5676

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

3/28/12 1:14:06 PM#11
Originally posted by Amaranthar

Any RMT at all is Pay-To-Win. Whatever it is, if it has enough value to players that they are willing to pay cash for it, then it has value in the game and those who buy it are ahead of those who don't. They have bought something that other players either can't have, or have to spend time that they didn't (by virtue of the cash purchase) to get.

No matter how you look at it, cash buys something (items, advantages, or time rquirements to get). And that is Pay-To-Win.

This is what I meant about a definition being useless. WIth this definition, nearly all (if not all) would be classified as P2W. If you want to nitpick Eve Online, Guild Wars 1, World of Tanks, League of Legends... all of these would be put in the same basket with Runes of Magic, Atlantica Online etc. - games with serious cash shop advantage.

There is a degree how severely the cash shop affects games.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  evolver1972

Novice Member

Joined: 3/18/11
Posts: 1126

What is "real"? How do you define "real"?

 
OP  3/28/12 1:14:41 PM#12
Originally posted by Dragonantis

Pay-2-Win: The process of purchasing items or buffs that aid in the advancement of character wealth or ability to levels beyond the normal player.

I'm assuming you mean things like XP boosts.  Does that include if those boosts are also found in game?

And, why?  What does it matter to you if I advance to level 50 faster than you?

Does having the abilitly to play a game for 8 hours a day versus someone who plays for 4 hours a day also constitute an unfair advantage?  I would say that someone who can play for 8 hours a day has the ability to advance character wealth and ability far beyond the "normal" player.  "Normal" being defined as someone who typically can devote less than, say, 4 hours per day to a game.

You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

  Connmacart

Novice Member

Joined: 2/24/12
Posts: 693

3/28/12 1:18:28 PM#13
Originally posted by Amaranthar

Any RMT at all is Pay-To-Win. Whatever it is, if it has enough value to players that they are willing to pay cash for it, then it has value in the game and those who buy it are ahead of those who don't. They have bought something that other players either can't have, or have to spend time that they didn't (by virtue of the cash purchase) to get.

No matter how you look at it, cash buys something (items, advantages, or time rquirements to get). And that is Pay-To-Win.

I think you should stop using money alltogether, since spending money on enything is pay to win from your perspective, maybe eggs or apples are a better currency for you.

If a Cash Shop is P2W or not doesn't simply rely on the items in the shop but also on their context in the game. An item can be P2W in one game but  not so in another. An Exp boost in a game where levelling is important and higher levels have a vast advantage is P2W, but in a game where levelling is flat and your level is more or less meaning less it isn't P2W. 

It's all about context, yet only a very small group understands this.

  User Deleted
3/28/12 1:21:52 PM#14

P2W is kind of an "after the fact" thing
If after a period of time, if I have been consistently using the cash shop, if I am better off than you for it, then it's pay to win.

  Ceridith

Novice Member

Joined: 11/24/09
Posts: 3001

The more you hype an upcoming game in your mind, the more it will fail to meet your expectations.

3/28/12 1:22:05 PM#15

Aside from the obvious 'anything with stats'...

Anything that offers players a way to expediate, procure, or otherwise bypass content beyond regular gameplay.

Anything that is not purely cosmetic, with the exception 'vanity' items that look like very difficult to obtain rewards available through normal gameplay.

  Amaranthar

Novice Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 2171

3/28/12 1:24:09 PM#16
Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by Amaranthar

Any RMT at all is Pay-To-Win. Whatever it is, if it has enough value to players that they are willing to pay cash for it, then it has value in the game and those who buy it are ahead of those who don't. They have bought something that other players either can't have, or have to spend time that they didn't (by virtue of the cash purchase) to get.

No matter how you look at it, cash buys something (items, advantages, or time rquirements to get). And that is Pay-To-Win.

So if you buy a pretty dress for your caster and I don't buy one for my burly warrior dude, you win? Personally your definition feels quite a bit too loose. Character slots for altoholics certainly aren't pay to win, but by your definition they seem to be.

Exactly. What do you have in that scenario that I don't have. On the other hand, I have the dress that you can't have. Maybe you don't want that dress, but I'm pretty sure there are a lot of other guys playing MMOs that would.
And I can sell that dress for game gold to them, and turn around and buy that uber gear that you can't afford yet.

And even if the game won't let me sell it, Ima dancin' in a pretty dress and you ain't.

Once upon a time....

  Dragonantis

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/16/10
Posts: 971

3/28/12 1:26:12 PM#17
Originally posted by evolver1972
Originally posted by Dragonantis

Pay-2-Win: The process of purchasing items or buffs that aid in the advancement of character wealth or ability to levels beyond the normal player.

I'm assuming you mean things like XP boosts.  Does that include if those boosts are also found in game?

And, why?  What does it matter to you if I advance to level 50 faster than you?

Does having the abilitly to play a game for 8 hours a day versus someone who plays for 4 hours a day also constitute an unfair advantage?  I would say that someone who can play for 8 hours a day has the ability to advance character wealth and ability far beyond the "normal" player.  "Normal" being defined as someone who typically can devote less than, say, 4 hours per day to a game.

Nope I said nothing about levels, what I meant was people having the means through a cash shop and money to directly advance the power of thier characters far beyond a normal player, playing normally at their own pace.

Its understandable that many people dont have the time to devote to these types of games, but when they introduce systems like this, the main ones that actually exploit it are people who can actually play for long extended periods, people with not much time to devote to a game dont pay as much as those that do.

Thus the reason why people have a problem with cash shops in the first place and the Pay-2-Win model.

  thinktank001

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/13/08
Posts: 1942

3/28/12 1:30:53 PM#18
Originally posted by evolver1972

My definition of Pay2Win is a game with a Cash Shop where the shop sells items that actually give you an advantage over someone else, especially in PvP situations.  It does not include XP boosters or anything like that especially if those things are found in game. 

 

How can you not add " convenience items " to P2W?   There isn't a single game out there where more advanced toon does not mean they have an advantage over you.

Call me crazy, but I don't know of a single P2W game that offers their Cash shop items in game.   On the rare occasion that they do there are extra stipulations, available in unsufficient quantites, or are a limited time event only.  Normally they are there to " break the purchase barrier " by giving the player a taste of " convenience " that they offer.

  Meltdown

Novice Member

Joined: 8/09/03
Posts: 1191

3/28/12 1:33:01 PM#19

To me, pay2win means one of two things.

 

1, There is no possible way to obtain the same item (or result of said item) without paying money. Note this only applies to non-cosmetic items.

2. There is a severe balance issue between the amount of time spent in-game to obtain the same results of $10 from the cash shop. Meaning if it takes you 6 hours of playtime to obtain something that costs $10 in the cash shop, that is probably reasonable. But if it takes you 100 hours of playtime to obtain something that costs $10 in the cash shop, then there is a severe balance issue and the developers are forcing you to buy.

 

#1 Is a clear advantage, I have "sword of killing you +5" and you can't get it without paying. 

#2 is a bit fuzzier and essentially means that either you can spend money on the game to get an advantage or say goodbye to your friends, family, wife, job etc. just to get some minor item that costs barely anything. 

"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

3/28/12 1:34:46 PM#20

Pay to Win is any game you have to continue to pay for after you buy it. Anything else is symantics based on whatever doesnt make the individual look bad so he can stroke his epeen.

Yeah, I said it. Deal.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

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