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  kovah

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/15/05
Posts: 692

DaZeD aNd AmUsEd

4/04/12 6:53:22 AM#321

dammit.  Thought I was out....

It's easy Jason.  I can't see it your way, you can't see it mine.  We're different and on this we may never see eye to eye.  Agree to disagree?

How I can see it my way is the same way that anyone else in the history of this issue sees it my way.  There's plenty of arguements on both sides.  I've seen them all, weighed them based on my experiences and I come out at *shrug*.  Had someone stood up on a some public pulpit and said "Everyone go annoy kovah till he kills himself." I would give 0 flying you know whats.  That's said persons right, well, used to be, so what.  It's not said persons WORDS that cause any harm to me directly, it is someone elses reaction.  Punishing the speaker because someone else reacted to it is just plain silly.  Just cause someone drew some silly picutres of your prophet doesn't mean you are allowed to react violently.

Here in the US a guy called 911 and reported that he was robbed at gun point.  Responding officers shot and killed one of the two suspects.  Neither were armed.  Dude who called 911 and WAS ACTUALLY ROBBED, was arrested for involuntary manslaughter cause he LIED.  Cop shot and killed someone.  Not responsible, it was the fault of the guy who lied of course.  Those evil words killed that person, not the cop who pulled the trigger.

Once you start to travel down this road it ends poorly for everyone.

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6906

4/04/12 9:23:21 AM#322


Originally posted by kovah

It's not said persons WORDS that cause any harm to me directly, it is someone elses reaction.  Punishing the speaker because someone else reacted to it is just plain silly.


Punishing someone who ordered a murder because someone has reacted on order is also plain silly, I guess...


People are funny on these boards.

  dave6660

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/26/08
Posts: 2338

"Next time I see you, remind me not to talk to you."

4/04/12 11:53:53 AM#323
Originally posted by kovah

dammit.  Thought I was out....

It's easy Jason.  I can't see it your way, you can't see it mine.  We're different and on this we may never see eye to eye.  Agree to disagree?

How I can see it my way is the same way that anyone else in the history of this issue sees it my way.  There's plenty of arguements on both sides.  I've seen them all, weighed them based on my experiences and I come out at *shrug*.  Had someone stood up on a some public pulpit and said "Everyone go annoy kovah till he kills himself." I would give 0 flying you know whats.  That's said persons right, well, used to be, so what.  It's not said persons WORDS that cause any harm to me directly, it is someone elses reaction.  Punishing the speaker because someone else reacted to it is just plain silly.  Just cause someone drew some silly picutres of your prophet doesn't mean you are allowed to react violently.

Here in the US a guy called 911 and reported that he was robbed at gun point.  Responding officers shot and killed one of the two suspects.  Neither were armed.  Dude who called 911 and WAS ACTUALLY ROBBED, was arrested for involuntary manslaughter cause he LIED.  Cop shot and killed someone.  Not responsible, it was the fault of the guy who lied of course.  Those evil words killed that person, not the cop who pulled the trigger.

Once you start to travel down this road it ends poorly for everyone.

The United States Supreme Court would disagree with you.  They have clearly stated that freedom of speech is limited when it creates a clear and present danger.  The example they gave was a person shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre.  Nowadays that would also extend to yelling "bomb" on an airplane.  You can't blame others for reacting to supposed life threatening circumstances.

"Why so serious?"
-- The Joker

  SlaverHound

Novice Member

Joined: 1/25/12
Posts: 109

4/04/12 1:19:23 PM#324
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by kovah

 

It's not said persons WORDS that cause any harm to me directly, it is someone elses reaction.  Punishing the speaker because someone else reacted to it is just plain silly.

 


 

Punishing someone who ordered a murder because someone has reacted on order is also plain silly, I guess...


People are funny on these boards.

I totally agree with you, they are a funny bunch, I mean, if you can convince a few men to fly airplanes into buildings and murder thousands of people - you shouldn't be the one to blame - it's the ones that flew the airplanes that are to blame.

C'mon it's freedom of speech and he was drunk at the time and don't call him a terrorist because he didn't actually fly the plane and it's not that big of a deal because there's been people that have killed millions so we should all just ignore the incident and get over it, etc.

"Lectroids? Planet 10? Nuclear extortion? A girl named "John"?

  Wraithone

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 3565

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

4/04/12 2:03:18 PM#325
Originally posted by dave6660
Originally posted by kovah

dammit.  Thought I was out....

It's easy Jason.  I can't see it your way, you can't see it mine.  We're different and on this we may never see eye to eye.  Agree to disagree?

How I can see it my way is the same way that anyone else in the history of this issue sees it my way.  There's plenty of arguements on both sides.  I've seen them all, weighed them based on my experiences and I come out at *shrug*.  Had someone stood up on a some public pulpit and said "Everyone go annoy kovah till he kills himself." I would give 0 flying you know whats.  That's said persons right, well, used to be, so what.  It's not said persons WORDS that cause any harm to me directly, it is someone elses reaction.  Punishing the speaker because someone else reacted to it is just plain silly.  Just cause someone drew some silly picutres of your prophet doesn't mean you are allowed to react violently.

Here in the US a guy called 911 and reported that he was robbed at gun point.  Responding officers shot and killed one of the two suspects.  Neither were armed.  Dude who called 911 and WAS ACTUALLY ROBBED, was arrested for involuntary manslaughter cause he LIED.  Cop shot and killed someone.  Not responsible, it was the fault of the guy who lied of course.  Those evil words killed that person, not the cop who pulled the trigger.

Once you start to travel down this road it ends poorly for everyone.

The United States Supreme Court would disagree with you.  They have clearly stated that freedom of speech is limited when it creates a clear and present danger.  The example they gave was a person shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre.  Nowadays that would also extend to yelling "bomb" on an airplane.  You can't blame others for reacting to supposed life threatening circumstances.

Yes, the Nine Riders of the Bench are rather fond of "discovering" or creating out of whole cloth, "exceptions" for governments actions.  Or actions that the Framers of the US Constitution and Bill of Rights would have taken a VERY dim view of. But as is often the case when dealing with government, might makes "right". 

As the Founders/Framers understood, rights and freedom itself are only secure as long as the general population is well educated, well informed and well armed.  The first two haven't been true for generations.  While the third has been seriously eroded. 

But this is rather far afield. Mittens drunken nonsense, should have been treated as just that. The blatherings of someone lacking the wisdom and judgement to know their own limits.  The timing and place should have resulted in them losing their position on the CSM.

Beyond that is simply appeasing of various hysterics, who are rather foggy on the distinctions between actions, and speech and individual free will.  But again, that too is simply a sign of the times that we happen to live in. 

  Calfis

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/15/11
Posts: 338

4/04/12 2:58:00 PM#326
Originally posted by Wraithone

But this is rather far afield. Mittens drunken nonsense, should have been treated as just that. The blatherings of someone lacking the wisdom and judgement to know their own limits.  The timing and place should have resulted in them losing their position on the CSM.

This can be argued about sober Mittani too :P

  Shadoed

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/03/03
Posts: 1484

4/05/12 3:52:25 AM#327
Originally posted by kovah

dammit.  Thought I was out....

It's easy Jason.  I can't see it your way, you can't see it mine.  We're different and on this we may never see eye to eye.  Agree to disagree?

How I can see it my way is the same way that anyone else in the history of this issue sees it my way.  There's plenty of arguements on both sides.  I've seen them all, weighed them based on my experiences and I come out at *shrug*.  Had someone stood up on a some public pulpit and said "Everyone go annoy kovah till he kills himself." I would give 0 flying you know whats.  That's said persons right, well, used to be, so what.  It's not said persons WORDS that cause any harm to me directly, it is someone elses reaction.  Punishing the speaker because someone else reacted to it is just plain silly.  Just cause someone drew some silly picutres of your prophet doesn't mean you are allowed to react violently.

Here in the US a guy called 911 and reported that he was robbed at gun point.  Responding officers shot and killed one of the two suspects.  Neither were armed.  Dude who called 911 and WAS ACTUALLY ROBBED, was arrested for involuntary manslaughter cause he LIED.  Cop shot and killed someone.  Not responsible, it was the fault of the guy who lied of course.  Those evil words killed that person, not the cop who pulled the trigger.

Once you start to travel down this road it ends poorly for everyone.

I think you are right, i don't see we will have a common ground on this, but that is the wonder of free speech and thought, we can both have differing views and express them on an open forum such as this and whether i agree with your view or not i can respect you for standing by it.

The example you have given i am presuming is the Pasadena incident from last week? Now, from the articles i have read about this so far there is an assumption that the person reporting the robbery lied about it being an armed robbery, now by that i mean did the victim know the guys robbing him weren't armed? Was he told they were armed to effect the robbery or did he know for a fact that they weren't? That is a matter of speculation and i am not saying for one second that they did use that tactic to rob him, but my overall point is that we just don't know, we are making an assumption. What is in fact is that the police shot an unarmed man after the report and that would need some looking in to as all the articles say that they should of course made sure that he was armed before opening fire.

Now this of course does not match the severity of the case we are dicussing in this thread, but it differs from it in one huge factor and that is that the person reporting the robbery didn't (as far as we know) stand there and say/shout directly to the police to pull the trigger on the gun and shoot, where as in this case the request to cause harm was made directly to people. 

It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.

  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3542

4/05/12 4:38:06 AM#328
Originally posted by jason_webb
 

I think you are right, i don't see we will have a common ground on this, but that is the wonder of free speech and thought, we can both have differing views and express them on an open forum such as this and whether i agree with your view or not i can respect you for standing by it.

The example you have given i am presuming is the Pasadena incident from last week? Now, from the articles i have read about this so far there is an assumption that the person reporting the robbery lied about it being an armed robbery, now by that i mean did the victim know the guys robbing him weren't armed? Was he told they were armed to effect the robbery or did he know for a fact that they weren't? That is a matter of speculation and i am not saying for one second that they did use that tactic to rob him, but my overall point is that we just don't know, we are making an assumption. What is in fact is that the police shot an unarmed man after the report and that would need some looking in to as all the articles say that they should of course made sure that he was armed before opening fire.

Now this of course does not match the severity of the case we are dicussing in this thread, but it differs from it in one huge factor and that is that the person reporting the robbery didn't (as far as we know) stand there and say/shout directly to the police to pull the trigger on the gun and shoot, where as in this case the request to cause harm was made directly to people. 

It is posts like these that I have to ask if the poster is being 'confused' between reality and gaming.

Post by someone at Kugu  - 'Because anyone who plays a killer in a game is obviously a mass murdering sociopath in real life don'tchaknow.' (sarcasm)

 

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  Gdemami

Elite Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6906

4/05/12 6:35:50 AM#329


Originally posted by jpnz

It is posts like these that I have to ask if the poster is being 'confused' between reality and gaming.
Post by someone at Kugu  - 'Because anyone who plays a killer in a game is obviously a mass murdering sociopath in real life don'tchaknow.' (sarcasm)
 


Ironically, it was Mittani who has proven that he is a dumbass and troll ingame as well as out of game...

  Shadoed

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/03/03
Posts: 1484

4/05/12 8:18:00 AM#330
Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by jason_webb
 Now this of course does not match the severity of the case we are dicussing in this thread, but it differs from it in one huge factor and that is that the person reporting the robbery didn't (as far as we know) stand there and say/shout directly to the police to pull the trigger on the gun and shoot, where as in this case the request to cause harm was made directly to people. 

It is posts like these that I have to ask if the poster is being 'confused' between reality and gaming.

Post by someone at Kugu  - 'Because anyone who plays a killer in a game is obviously a mass murdering sociopath in real life don'tchaknow.' (sarcasm)

 

Not quite sure where you get that extreme from? I have never compared him to a mass murdering sociopath or anything around that area in any of my posts (if you feel i have then feel free to point it out) and in fact in the quote you clipped above i specifically said that the case quoted by the previous poster was of a different extreme completely. The post you quoted was, if you read it, about the difference in the way blame is apportioned and not specifically about the case itself. But, which ever way you cut it he called for people to cause someone harm (psychologically) with the intent to make them cause themselves harm (physically) and if some posts (here and eleswhere) are to be believed and he was doing this at least partly 'in character' then i do wonder if there are some fantasy vs reality issues involved (as well as the alcohol).

At best it was a very misguided action by someone who has allowed his in-game ego to spill out into reality and missed the mark, at worst he really believed that he could get other people to make someone harm themselves, but at differing levels both options are a little worrying.

It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.

  darkehawke

Novice Member

Joined: 11/03/10
Posts: 182

4/05/12 9:30:14 AM#331
Originally posted by kovah

Here in the US a guy called 911 and reported that he was robbed at gun point.  Responding officers shot and killed one of the two suspects.  Neither were armed.  Dude who called 911 and WAS ACTUALLY ROBBED, was arrested for involuntary manslaughter cause he LIED.  Cop shot and killed someone.  Not responsible, it was the fault of the guy who lied of course.  Those evil words killed that person, not the cop who pulled the trigger.

Once you start to travel down this road it ends poorly for everyone.

 i cant agree with you here.

The person who reported it is responsible for the murder? thats bullcrap.

The person responsible is the robber themselves, if they had not robbed the person, then the crime wouldnt have been reported and the events wouldnt have played out. it was their own actions that led to this!

about the whole saga, my viewpoints are simple.

it doesnt matter if its a hoax or if the person concerned took it on the chin, the next person might not. so that argument is pointless imo.

it doesnt matter how much good this person has done in the game, he has unravelled it all with his comments. people will be put off the game, people who could have been great additions. but then again they could have been more asshats. it swings both ways. the fact remains any good that was done has been washed away with the bad.

If this was said in game, its one thing, but at a public and broadcasted event, that is another. that is the issue here, this is not how someone acts out of a game, at fan events and other things like that, you are out of the game so you do not rp as if you are in the game. simple as. if you really are a dickead in real life though, thats a different story, in which case, this guy is really a cowardly bully and should be treated accordingly.

To say its ok about the shitty comments because its what goons (seriously?) do is completely stupid. i wouldnt argue that it was ok that nazi's killed jews cos thats what nazi's do. just because someone does something constantly doesnt make it ok.

having said that, the reaction has been a bit ott in itself.

This guy Mittani or whatever his insignificant name is, fucked up bad. he's done an apology however insincere or sincere it may be, and he needs to be dropped from public events. that is it. the events took place out of the game, therefore he should be punished out of the game, and the only way to do that is to lose his privileged postion to represent his corp or alliance.

The calls for in game punishments cant be justified until there is proof that he is misbehaving in the same way in game.

at the end of the day, the guy is a fool, a twat who wouldnt register on my radar if i ever saw him irl. its done now, let him crawl back under his rock, or let him move on if he's genuinely sorry and give him a chance to redeem himself. if he continues to make these specatacles of himself, then form the lynch mob

Currently playing- SWG PreCU & GW 2
Have tried WoW, AoC, & Vanguard, SWG:NGE, GW, LOTRO & SWTOR
Best MMO: SWG
Worst MMO: SWTOR

  sycofiend

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/07/11
Posts: 127

4/05/12 3:24:27 PM#332

Here in the US a guy called 911 and reported that he was robbed at gun point.  Responding officers shot and killed one of the two suspects.  Neither were armed.  Dude who called 911 and WAS ACTUALLY ROBBED, was arrested for involuntary manslaughter cause he LIED.  Cop shot and killed someone.  Not responsible, it was the fault of the guy who lied of course.  Those evil words killed that person, not the cop who pulled the trigger.

Once you start to travel down this road it ends poorly for everyone.

 

 

Must not have been from Florida ... apparently its perfectly legal to gun down unarmed people in Florida.  :P

  sycofiend

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/07/11
Posts: 127

4/05/12 3:29:04 PM#333

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/29/kendrec-mcdade-shooting-p_n_1387033.html?ref=los-angeles&icid=maing-grid7|main5|dl7|sec3_lnk1%26pLid%3D147830

 

  Komandor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/17/09
Posts: 260

4/07/12 5:07:18 PM#334

If they tresspass then it is.

Keep on rockin'!

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