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General Discussion

General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » "Time-saving Convenience items" and "Time Skippers". The new PAY TO WIN.

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189 posts found

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 13198

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

4/02/12 7:54:58 AM#181
Originally posted by thinktank001

 They mostly certainly do gain by not keeping people that don't pay for items around.  A dead server with paying customers is better than a full server with few paying customers.   Why do you think the P2W payment model is so attractive?   It doesn't matter how full the server is as long as the paying customers stay happy.  That isn't difficult as long as developers give them advantages over others.  

That's not how the business model works.

In a F2P MMO, the free players are often as important as the paying ones. The model is managed very differently from a subscription game. While there may very well be back of the queue prioritizing sometimes, the free player is understood to be a very valuable user of the service.

Look at the home page for any F2P game and you will see there are constant events, festivals and special weekends. When you hop in game, you will often see there are GMs and staffers that are hanging out in channel, chatting with the players. The towns or NPCs are usually redecorated for holidays and events. This content is just as much for the free player as the paying player. The reason being is that the free players are, to a certain degree, content for paying players.

Players being content for other players is absolutely true of subscription MMOs, as well. Veteran players will leave a server that feels ‘dead’. When new players log into a ‘dead’ server, they aren’t too likely to stick around. The vanity players need people to show their stuff off to, the entertainers need people to entertain, the raiders and grinders need people to group with, and the socializers need people to chat with.

In the F2P model, you already know that you’re only getting cash from a small percentage, so it’s not like you are putting much effort into getting cash from the rest – they had no intention of spending anything to begin with, so you focus your item mall primarily on those who will. You concentrate your efforts in two areas

  • providing engaging content to bring in as many free players as you can
  • providing desirable items in the mall for the players looking to invest extra in their hobby/entertainment

The vanity case isn’t going to buy new bling if there’s no one to show it off to.
The raider/grinder isn’t going to buy the xp boosts if he doesn’t have players to group with or compete against. The socialiser isn’t going to run his tavern or buy new toys if he’s logging in and just playing alone.

Without the free players, the paying ones quickly leave.


I would not mind in game advertising, it does not break gaming ethos. - Scot


Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1517

4/02/12 9:56:38 AM#182
Originally posted by Interesting

MMORPGs are designed so time is never enough. By design, there isnt a CAP at wich point spending more time does not provide any more material or subjective advantage to a player.  By design players can always get more and better resources, gear, valuables.


I read up to here. And then stopped. That is your wrong assumption and everything else is just smoke and mirrors.

Not every MMORPG is by design without a progression cap. I would even go as far as to say every MMO with no progression cap is flawed from a design point, especially with pvp in it. (especially with vertical progression)

But i know, the WoW generation dont know any better, and are to narrow minded to see anything else. Not every game is a grind by definition, not every game is designed to be a endless grind, not every game needs a carrot on a stick. Just the worst of games need it. imho


Novice Member

Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 1049

4/02/12 10:00:42 AM#183

Peace and love brother, peace and love. Doesn't sound like Guild wars 2 is your game.  You should play something where the illusion of power is more transparent.  

  User Deleted
4/02/12 10:06:02 AM#184

I like the OP, he's so cock sure he knows something when in fact he knows damn near nothing, simply put: F2P = best build with time-skipping/xp augmenting premium items, anything else feels like a money grab and rightfully so while also placing stress on the devs to keep the premium items flowing while P2P gives you everything for a flat rate per month, there's also Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2 who are B2P but those are hybrid beasts and by the looks of things could be the best of both worlds with the right devs.



Joined: 8/14/07
Posts: 4933

4/02/12 10:48:48 AM#185
Originally posted by jmcdermottuk
Originally posted by SuprGamerX

  What I mean is that MMO's these days are all about solo play , so if someone is able to solo a certain dungeon then that person will hog most of the players to play with. 

You realise that GW2 scales players to content right? And that explorable dungeons are rock hard mode? Nobody is going to be soloing dungeons in GW2. These dungeons are designed to be difficult for a full group. If it happens to be a level 35 dungeon and the players are all level 80, they're scaled down to 35 to keep the difficulty level applicable.


No he probably doesn't realize that, but he also probably won't come back to the thread to tell you that.  The number of people with misinformation about the game that bitch and moan in these threads is astounding.  It's like they've never done any research on the game themselves at all, but somehow think they're qualified to dissect (spelling?) it.  So they proceed to dice it from limb to limb when then don't even know basic things about it.  Amazing.


Originally posted by Kreedz

These arguements are so dumb...




There is no Rat Race here folks, you can get the same weapons as everyone else can, some might get them before you do... that doesnt make it unfair, thats just the way of the world, online and offline.


Also, the gold arguement is so thin... Who cares whether someone can buy more blueprints in WvW than some other guy... they still need build it. And guess what, that blueprint someone just bought and built - I looted it off a player I just killed, and saved myself X amount of gold.


It is actually disheartening how many people are unable to think logically (or objectively) about this subject.



I sooooo agree with you.  These are people we've likely played games with, side by side.  That would explain a lot of my past disgust in game communities, actually.  Common sense and logic are definitely not common.

President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club


Novice Member

Joined: 1/16/08
Posts: 959

OP  4/14/12 5:56:07 PM#186
Originally posted by sapheroith

If u dont like the idea of "time convenience item", dont play any mmo then, because all mmo has this kind of item.


Your argument is falacious.


Novice Member

Joined: 1/17/12
Posts: 872

4/14/12 11:14:27 PM#187
Originally posted by Apraxis
Originally posted by Interesting

MMORPGs are designed so time is never enough. By design, there isnt a CAP at wich point spending more time does not provide any more material or subjective advantage to a player.  By design players can always get more and better resources, gear, valuables.


I read up to here. And then stopped. That is your wrong assumption and everything else is just smoke and mirrors.

Not every MMORPG is by design without a progression cap. I would even go as far as to say every MMO with no progression cap is flawed from a design point, especially with pvp in it. (especially with vertical progression)

But i know, the WoW generation dont know any better, and are to narrow minded to see anything else. Not every game is a grind by definition, not every game is designed to be a endless grind, not every game needs a carrot on a stick. Just the worst of games need it. imho

Regardless of the original point, your concern with individual progression difference between players in pvp that is largely insignificant in games outside the wow-bg-arena type gameplay due to more focus on group objectives and lack of player number restrictions while talking down to someone about "wow generation" is hilarious.

Flame on!




Advanced Member

Joined: 8/11/09
Posts: 799

4/14/12 11:33:35 PM#188

While i do think that any form of cash shop should have purely cosmetic items in it, it will never happen. Even games that im looking forward to may or will have it. TSW for an example, im sure they will have outfits and exp scrolls. Does it bug me? Yes it does.

Playing: War Thunder, World of Warcraft, and Grim Dawn
Waiting on:Everquest Next and The Black Desert

  User Deleted
4/15/12 12:20:06 AM#189
Originally posted by Mors-Subita
Originally posted by gainesvilleg

For example, if a game took 1000 hours to reach max level, but you could pay $100 and cut it down to 100 hours would that be considered pay2win?  If no, how about 10,000 hours?  100,000 hours?  Clearly at some point time-savers are pay2win.

Alternatively, if a game took 1 hour to reach max level, but you could pay $100 and cut it down to 10 minutes this would not be considered pay2win because it was so trivial.

In my book, it is pay2win or at best deep down the slippery slope.

And yet, guildwars 2 is much c loser to your second example. Every level after 15 has a the same TTL as every other level. No inflating the xp per level to make it seem like the game is longer... I believe they said that each level takes about 90 minutes. That makes it 120 hours to max level played continuously(assuming you aren't stopping to do the exploration stuff, or use the auction house, or any number of other things that might make the game enjoyable). Someone who used cash shop items to make it faster(assuming they used a new one every time the last one expired) would go through 216 of the exp boosts, and would take 108 hours to make max level instead of 120... Has 12 hours somehow become P2W? By your logic, this would be "trivial" and not considered P2W, and yet you conclude that it is P2W...

Maybe you've never seen the math done that way, but it sure looks trivial to me...

How about some more math? Lets say, for the sake of argument, that each of the xp boosts costs 50 cents... That is 108 dollars to save 12 hours... how about if they cost a dollar a piece? 216$ to save 12 hours? If it is 1 cent each and it costs them $2.16, is it still P2W(since pretty much everyone should be able to afford that, if they are buying a $80 game)


The other thing is this concept of "win". "Win" implies competition, so who exactly are they winning against with these exp boosts? It won't be people in PvP, since PvP is normalized(level in WvW and level+gear in arena/e-sport)... And in PvE this is a coop game, and the most they will be is 12 hours ahead of someone who has put in the same time, and EVERYONE SCALES, so its not even like they can see content the other person can't get to...


I just don't understand how this is P2W and what, exactly, they are supposed to be winning, and who is losing(since in order to have a winner you have to have a loser). If no one is losing, and no one who is using these items is getting any advantage which is not trivial(in my estimation, and I think in yours as well) how exactly is it P2W?

and i'll bet i'll take more then 120 hours to level. at least, i hope so. i plan on looking around in every nook and cranny.

i find the whole "double xp" time saving devices amusing in this particular game, given they've gone to such effort to reduce the grind and make every part of the game fun, while at the same time giving you the freedom to pop yourself into pvp no matter your level and compete!

to be honest, for gw2, i think these double xp things are a waste of time...

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