Originally posted by xmenty

Originally posted by BiriBiri

Originally posted by xmenty

I should think P2P is the biggest scam imo.

I have paid around $500 or more after a few years of playing WOW.

Once I stopped paying subs, I cannot even access my own toons.

I would never ever play a P2P games again and also 90% of P2P games suck balls.

Shame Preserved

Making people pay for something that takes millions of dollars of investment and hundreds of thousands to upkeep is not a scam, it running a good business that serves to, among many other things, reduce inflation to appropriate levels, generate Global GDP, and most importantly provide the layman with something enyjoyable to do in his spare time.

Take you give me free crap attitude and get off the internet.

EDIT: To be less of a mean person

Yea right, that is why 90% of them going from P2P to F2P / Freemium.

Your right- The companies aren't shifting the pay model to stay competitive in what is a shrinking traditional market and a growing mainstream market they are doing it becuase they have seen the error of thier ways and feel bad for exploiting all those people that payed for subs, that has to be the reason, laws of the market be damned. 

Originally posted by Thupli

Originally posted by Cyberdeck7

Originally posted by Creslin321

Here's another thought exercise...

Try subscribing to a game for an entire year, and never play.  Then, at the end of the year, logon to the game and see how powerful you are.

My guess is...you'll be just as powerful as the day you bought the game.  And that is why subscription is not P2W...it's pay to PLAY.  If you don't play...you do not get more powerful.

game, set, match

 EXCEPT...

 

If you have 2 people that are both playing, you can gain more power if you play more than the other person.  That's the OP's original point.  The imbalance simply revolves around time invested instead of money invested.  I think you may have missed the OP's  point.

No - not having enough time is the red herring here. Everyone always has the same amount of time. Time is equal. You can spend it on a MMO, you can spend it on learning guitar. People always toss insults along with crying about having less time - they're working, they have families. It means nothing. Does the guy learning guitar instead of playing the MMO deserve to pay his way to the top?

Furthermore - try applying the cash shop/time excuse to any other hobby. Anything. Woodworking. Go to a woodworking convention, push your way on stage with a fist full of $1s and say that you'd love to experience the hobby, and you just know you'd be really good, but you don't have the time to hone your skill because you have a job. Tell them - "here's $5 - I want a ribbon too. And I want a title in your hobby. I spend no time with it, but call me Master Woodworker"

Try it in the middle of a basketball game "Yo Leroy - I want to play. You guys already have 12 points, but it's not fair because I've been working. Here's $5 - I want 12 points and a league championship jersey. Also, I can't dribble for shit because I didn't have time to learn... so no more dibbling - I mean you can dribble of you want, but I'm not gonna. Just pretend I'm equal because I paid"

The only reason the time argument even begins to sound valid is because of the assumption that time spent gaming is just a waste of time. If that's how you feel, find something else to do. Don't cry because you want to look like the guy who spends all of his Hobby time in MMOs. Don't cheapen his time just because you want want want and want it now. Family, Kids, Jobs - those are all choices about how you spend your time. Do you tell people to babysit for free because they have no kids? Is that extra "kidless" time somehow yours now to assign value to? Yeah - it isn't. Nor should the value of my gaming time be yours to cheapen by buying my accomplishments.

If you flip your argument around, it sounds even more ridiculous. "Hey boss, I only worked 20 hours, but I need to be paid for 40 so here's a virtual magic sword." No - the currencies aren't and shouldn't be interchangable.

Your job/family/kids time is NOT worth more than my gaming time no matter how self rightously you squeal about it.

Originally posted by Dreadblade

Originally posted by xmenty

Originally posted by BiriBiri

Originally posted by xmenty

I should think P2P is the biggest scam imo.

I have paid around $500 or more after a few years of playing WOW.

Once I stopped paying subs, I cannot even access my own toons.

I would never ever play a P2P games again and also 90% of P2P games suck balls.

Shame Preserved

Making people pay for something that takes millions of dollars of investment and hundreds of thousands to upkeep is not a scam, it running a good business that serves to, among many other things, reduce inflation to appropriate levels, generate Global GDP, and most importantly provide the layman with something enyjoyable to do in his spare time.

Take you give me free crap attitude and get off the internet.

EDIT: To be less of a mean person

Yea right, that is why 90% of them going from P2P to F2P / Freemium.

 

 

 

 

What is F2P with GW2, it is called B2P please get your facts right, and then they will use the cash shop as a way to funnel in the money.

Lol wait the min this is getting confusing :P .

I am talking to Biribiri on P2P concept and nothing to do with GW2 bro, lol.

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Originally posted by Distopia

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Originally posted by Size-Twelve
 

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Originally posted by Distopia

Have to disagree, it's typical projectionism. The model he has clung to has come under fire, and he's striking back. His comparison is completely arbitrary, as his calculated cause is not the actual culprit behind the effect. Any RPG (even single player) will reward time in such a way. GW2 will all the way to 80 as well.

---

 
Wait, hang on though. Let's not target the OP, but the message. A single player RPG can't give you an advantage against other players (i.e. Play to win). It rewards time, in that eventually you will win the game, but your time isn't measured against that of others.

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I'm not targetting the OP I'm targetting the mesage he sent, there's a huge difference there. My point wasn't about whether it effects others it's about how progression is nothing but a reward for time spent. You will never get anywhere in an RPG without spending time. The reward is all about how much time you spend, that is progression in a nutshell, Sub model or revenue stream has nothing at all to do with that.
Think about this, what is Anets chief message on RMT?
Is it not, nothing will give an advantage over time? Meaning progression is the reward for time spent?

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My takeaway from ANets stance on the shop is that nothing in it should give an advantage over another PLAYER - not time. Maybe that's where our views are different. I view that to mean that everything in the shop is accessible to all players, and that nothing in it is considered exclusive and useful against another player.

Nevertheless, progression isn't limited to RPG's. Progression in an FPS means learning the maps, and getting better. That is progression that rewards time, but it's time as an investment in a skill. It has limits.

In traditional MMO's time is an investment in accumulating things. Levels, gear, gold, exclusive content etc...these things all give additional advantages on top of a players natural skill. This makes time itself an advantage unique to MMO's, and much like a cash shop, it offers exclusive rewards.

In this way, I feel that the GW2 cash shop is actually MORE fair than a subscription.

Originally posted by Size-Twelve

 

 

 This makes time itself an advantage unique to MMO's, and much like a cash shop, it offers exclusive rewards.

In this way, I feel that the GW2 cash shop is actually MORE fair than a subscription.

 

Time is not an advantage. Everyone has the same amount to spend. 24hrs/day. That's it - everyone is the same. You can't "make" more time than anyone else. How you spend those 24hrs is up to you.

What's not up to you is to chose how valuable anyone else's time is. Judgments about the subjective quality of others' time spent are invalid.

Not everyone has the same amount of cash, by default, all the time.  You can make more cash than someone else.

Cash is the variable advantage. Time is a constant

Originally posted by Size-Twelve

---

 

My takeaway from ANets stance on the shop is that nothing in it should give an advantage over another PLAYER - not time. Maybe that's where our views are different. I view that to mean that everything in the shop is accessible to all players, and that nothing in it is considered exclusive and useful against another player.

Nevertheless, progression isn't limited to RPG's. Progression in an FPS means learning the maps, and getting better. That is progression that rewards time, but it's time as an investment in a skill. It has limits.

In traditional MMO's time is an investment in accumulating things. Levels, gear, gold, exclusive content etc...these things all give additional advantages on top of a players natural skill. This makes time itself an advantage unique to MMO's, and much like a cash shop, it offers exclusive rewards.

In this way, I feel that the GW2 cash shop is actually MORE fair than a subscription.

 

I agree that their shop is more or less supplemental at this point. I don't view it as P2W at all (what's known).

FPS is a tad different in that it usually focuses on player skill, some weapons may have a higher rate of fire, a little more accuracy, etc.. but in the end it's all about twicth skill.

That's not the case in most RPG's and just about every MMO except a handful. Stats, gear and equipment, (character and itemized progression). Typically play a large part in "winning". Again it's the progression that gives the power, which is a reward for the time spent.

This is what I believe will make GW2 unique in a way, in that it focuses on horizontal progression at 80, rather than itemized. Player skill will be of greater effect in such a system.

I never played ROTGS in AOC but I heard that's what they focused on at that point of endgame, how was that? Anyone know?

Originally posted by Cyberdeck7

Originally posted by Size-Twelve

 

 

 This makes time itself an advantage unique to MMO's, and much like a cash shop, it offers exclusive rewards.

In this way, I feel that the GW2 cash shop is actually MORE fair than a subscription.

 

Time is not an advantage. Everyone has the same amount to spend. 24hrs/day. That's it - everyone is the same. You can't "make" more time than anyone else. How you spend those 24hrs is up to you.

What's not up to you is to chose how valuable anyone else's time is. Judgments about the subjective quality of others' time spent are invalid.

Not everyone has the same amount of cash, by default, all the time.  You can make more cash than someone else.

Cash is the variable advantage. Time is a constant

To put it another way-

Say a sword takes, on average, 1 hrs to grind out or is $10 in the cash shop

Fred makes $10/hr, Jim makes $20/hr

If they both buy the sword, Fred pays 1 hour in time, Jim pays 1/2 hour in time.

If there isn't a cash shop, they both pay 1 hour in time.

What is most fair?

To take it a step further, since we're talking about a game, say Jim is slightly better at the game. Now Fred pays 1 hour and Jim pays 1/2 hour again.

In both cases, Jim pays less.

The question is, since we're playing a game, should Jim be rewarded in that game for his better real life job or better in-game skill?

Asking that he be rewarded for his real life job makes the in-game skill pointless. It makes actually playing the game pointless. If you want to beat Jim at the game, get a better job.

Originally posted by Cyberdeck7

Originally posted by Size-Twelve

 

 

 This makes time itself an advantage unique to MMO's, and much like a cash shop, it offers exclusive rewards.

In this way, I feel that the GW2 cash shop is actually MORE fair than a subscription.

 

Time is not an advantage. Everyone has the same amount to spend. 24hrs/day. That's it - everyone is the same. You can't "make" more time than anyone else. How you spend those 24hrs is up to you.

What's not up to you is to chose how valuable anyone else's time is. Judgments about the subjective quality of others' time spent are invalid.

Not everyone has the same amount of cash, by default, all the time.  You can make more cash than someone else.

Cash is the variable advantage. Time is a constant

Again I'm playing the Devil's advocate:

To even out the advantage, you need to charge by time played.  

That is how is used to be...in the Compuserve days...you were charged by the hour.   If someone played 8 hours a day for 7 days a week, they would be more powerful than the player who would only play an hour a day.

The 'difference' was that those that played (8 hour/7days) a week actually spent more money and time to be more powerful.

Folks want equality and fairness to the extreme...well, the only way you get that is to pay for the time you play.

Is that what I want?  No. 

I like being able to buy a game and  play as much or a little as my schedule allows, but it still gives the player that has more opportunity to play to get more value for his time than I get for mine.

Your point about 'not everyone has the same amount of cash' does not apply....even IF we all had the same amount of cash, some of us would use it to feed our family while others might use it to play the game.  

It comes down to value...if some folks find value in the CS then they will use it, some won't find value there and won't use it.

Neither is right or wrong...it is a personal choice.

edited for spelling

Originally posted by Cyberdeck7

To put it another way-

Say a sword takes, on average, 1 hrs to grind out or is $10 in the cash shop

Fred makes $10/hr, Jim makes $20/hr

If they both buy the sword, Fred pays 1 hour in time, Jim pays 1/2 hour in time.

If there isn't a cash shop, they both pay 1 hour in time.

What is most fair?

To take it a step further, since we're talking about a game, say Jim is slightly better at the game. Now Fred pays 1 hour and Jim pays 1/2 hour again.

In both cases, Jim pays less.

The question is, since we're playing a game, should Jim be rewarded in that game for his better real life job or better in-game skill?

All true. But to either pay more or have fewer slots in the bank isn't really that unfair.

I think at least many people here think that selling anything with stats in a cashshop is bad, be that in Wow, GW2 or LOTRO. But stuff that makes you more comfortable, look different or have more alts are not nearly as bad.

The real discussion here are about XP pots. Some like me think that even without the XP pots you level too fast and therefore have a hard time understanding why anyone would buy them. Others think that they are a kind of cheating.

And the people questioning your logic will state that Jim actually have a work and a family and therefore can play maximum 2 hours each day while while Fred are unemployed and play 8 hours avery day. That is unfair too.

I personally never liked RMT shops but every coin have 2 sides. As long as they don't f*** up the game balance they are a rather hard question. However when a game like Wow start to sell raid gear the balance is gone and many people would buy the gear, prance around in it 2 weeks and then quit out of boredom.

Originally posted by garretth
Again I'm playing the Devil's advocate:

To even out the advantage, you need to charge by time played.  

That is how is used to be...in the compushare days...you were charged by the hour.   If someone played 8 hours a day for 7 days a week, they would be more powerful than the player who would only play an hour a day.

The 'difference' was that those that played (8 hour/7days) a week actually spent more money and time to be more powerful.

Folks want equality and fairness to the extreme...well, the only way you get that is to pay for the time you play.

Is that what I want?  No. 

I like being able to buy a game and  play as much or a little as my schedule allows, but it still gives the player that has more opportunity to play to get more value for his time than I get for mine.

Your point about 'not everyone has the same amount of cash' does not apply....even IF we all had the same amount of cash, some of us would use it to feed our family while others might use it to play the game.  

It comes down to value...if some folks find value in the CS then they will use it, some won't find value there and won't use it.

Neither is right or wrong...it is a personal choice.

There is another option: To stop the grind and let it be about how good you are instead of gear abd stats.

Even if you play 8 hours every day you still might not pass a hard dungeon if you play badly, while someone that is good can pass it the first go.

That is unfair to bad players, but the part of modern MMOs that really gets to me is the "everybody win" mentality that have sprung up.

Originally posted by garretth

Originally posted by Cyberdeck7

Originally posted by Size-Twelve

 

 

 This makes time itself an advantage unique to MMO's, and much like a cash shop, it offers exclusive rewards.

In this way, I feel that the GW2 cash shop is actually MORE fair than a subscription.

 

Time is not an advantage. Everyone has the same amount to spend. 24hrs/day. That's it - everyone is the same. You can't "make" more time than anyone else. How you spend those 24hrs is up to you.

What's not up to you is to chose how valuable anyone else's time is. Judgments about the subjective quality of others' time spent are invalid.

Not everyone has the same amount of cash, by default, all the time.  You can make more cash than someone else.

Cash is the variable advantage. Time is a constant

Again I'm playing the Devil's advocate:

To even out the advantage, you need to charge by time played.  

That is how is used to be...in the compushare days...you were charged by the hour.   If someone played 8 hours a day for 7 days a week, they would be more powerful than the player who would only play an hour a day.

The 'difference' was that those that played (8 hour/7days) a week actually spent more money and time to be more powerful.

Folks want equality and fairness to the extreme...well, the only way you get that is to pay for the time you play.

Is that what I want?  No. 

I like being able to buy a game and  play as much or a little as my schedule allows, but it still gives the player that has more opportunity to play to get more value for his time than I get for mine.

Your point about 'not everyone has the same amount of cash' does not apply....even IF we all had the same amount of cash, some of us would use it to feed our family while others might use it to play the game.  

It comes down to value...if some folks find value in the CS then they will use it, some won't find value there and won't use it.

Neither is right or wrong...it is a personal choice.

 

There is no advantage to even out. You can shrink it down to pay by the minute or blow it up to pay by the year. We're talking about paying by the month. There is no difference in this context. Your argument uses the negative connotation of "pay by the hour" to appeal to emotion- it's a logical fallacy. A person could easily get pulled away from his game during an hour he paid for and not be able to spend the entire hour playing.

The point is that a cash shop allows people to translate their real life success into in-game success. A real life example which takes into account the "fluff only is ok" crowd would be for a non-veteran to go out and by a bunch of combat ribbons and then try to pass himself off as a real vet. Those ribbons are a sign of accomplishment. If they were available at Walmart, it would cheapen the value of what they represent in the same way that buying things with-in the context of a game world cheapens the in-game value of those items when they're earned. Maybe the guy doesn't intend to pass himself off as anything or doesn't feel that they represent any sort of accomplishment - it still cheapens the value.

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by garretth
Again I'm playing the Devil's advocate:

To even out the advantage, you need to charge by time played.  

That is how is used to be...in the compushare days...you were charged by the hour.   If someone played 8 hours a day for 7 days a week, they would be more powerful than the player who would only play an hour a day.

The 'difference' was that those that played (8 hour/7days) a week actually spent more money and time to be more powerful.

Folks want equality and fairness to the extreme...well, the only way you get that is to pay for the time you play.

Is that what I want?  No. 

I like being able to buy a game and  play as much or a little as my schedule allows, but it still gives the player that has more opportunity to play to get more value for his time than I get for mine.

Your point about 'not everyone has the same amount of cash' does not apply....even IF we all had the same amount of cash, some of us would use it to feed our family while others might use it to play the game.  

It comes down to value...if some folks find value in the CS then they will use it, some won't find value there and won't use it.

Neither is right or wrong...it is a personal choice.

There is another option: To stop the grind and let it be about how good you are instead of gear abd stats.

Even if you play 8 hours every day you still might not pass a hard dungeon if you play badly, while someone that is good can pass it the first go.

That is unfair to bad players, but the part of modern MMOs that really gets to me is the "everybody win" mentality that have sprung up.

I agree wholeheartedly.   

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by Cyberdeck7

To put it another way-

Say a sword takes, on average, 1 hrs to grind out or is $10 in the cash shop

Fred makes $10/hr, Jim makes $20/hr

If they both buy the sword, Fred pays 1 hour in time, Jim pays 1/2 hour in time.

If there isn't a cash shop, they both pay 1 hour in time.

What is most fair?

To take it a step further, since we're talking about a game, say Jim is slightly better at the game. Now Fred pays 1 hour and Jim pays 1/2 hour again.

In both cases, Jim pays less.

The question is, since we're playing a game, should Jim be rewarded in that game for his better real life job or better in-game skill?

 

And the people questioning your logic will state that Jim actually have a work and a family and therefore can play maximum 2 hours each day while while Fred are unemployed and play 8 hours avery day. That is unfair too.

That is completely wrong. This is a judgment call on the value of each player's time. Take the emotion out - say Jim is unemployed and doesn't have a family, but he likes to practice his guitar. So Jim practices guitar 6 hours, plays the game for 2 while Fred doesn't play guitar and plays the 8 hours. Who should be further ahead in the game? Should Jim be able to trade his guitar skill for an advantage in the game?

Originally posted by Cyberdeck7

Originally posted by garretth

Originally posted by Cyberdeck7

Originally posted by Size-Twelve

 

 

 This makes time itself an advantage unique to MMO's, and much like a cash shop, it offers exclusive rewards.

In this way, I feel that the GW2 cash shop is actually MORE fair than a subscription.

 

Time is not an advantage. Everyone has the same amount to spend. 24hrs/day. That's it - everyone is the same. You can't "make" more time than anyone else. How you spend those 24hrs is up to you.

What's not up to you is to chose how valuable anyone else's time is. Judgments about the subjective quality of others' time spent are invalid.

Not everyone has the same amount of cash, by default, all the time.  You can make more cash than someone else.

Cash is the variable advantage. Time is a constant

Again I'm playing the Devil's advocate:

To even out the advantage, you need to charge by time played.  

That is how is used to be...in the compushare days...you were charged by the hour.   If someone played 8 hours a day for 7 days a week, they would be more powerful than the player who would only play an hour a day.

The 'difference' was that those that played (8 hour/7days) a week actually spent more money and time to be more powerful.

Folks want equality and fairness to the extreme...well, the only way you get that is to pay for the time you play.

Is that what I want?  No. 

I like being able to buy a game and  play as much or a little as my schedule allows, but it still gives the player that has more opportunity to play to get more value for his time than I get for mine.

Your point about 'not everyone has the same amount of cash' does not apply....even IF we all had the same amount of cash, some of us would use it to feed our family while others might use it to play the game.  

It comes down to value...if some folks find value in the CS then they will use it, some won't find value there and won't use it.

Neither is right or wrong...it is a personal choice.

 

There is no advantage to even out. You can shrink it down to pay by the minute or blow it up to pay by the year. We're talking about paying by the month. There is no difference in this context. Your argument uses the negative connotation of "pay by the hour" to appeal to emotion- it's a logical fallacy. A person could easily get pulled away from his game during an hour he paid for and not be able to spend the entire hour playing.

The point is that a cash shop allows people to translate their real life success into in-game success. A real life example which takes into account the "fluff only is ok" crowd would be for a non-veteran to go out and by a bunch of combat ribbons and then try to pass himself off as a real vet. Those ribbons are a sign of accomplishment. If they were available at Walmart, it would cheapen the value of what they represent in the same way that buying things with-in the context of a game world cheapens the in-game value of those items when they're earned. 

You can't buy accomplishment in the CS.  

The cash shop does not allow people to translate their real life success into in-game success.  

Each person that buys the game is successful enough to pay for the game to begin with.   We all start out the same...the differences reveal themselves in time spent in game. 

Time IS money.   Any game that allows you unlimited playing time for 15$ a month is a real bargain.   Those of us that used to pay by the hour don't want to go back to the 'good old days'.

If a cash shop offers 'cheats' that I can't earn in game, then I won't play it.   

Originally posted by Cyberdeck7

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by Cyberdeck7

To put it another way-

Say a sword takes, on average, 1 hrs to grind out or is $10 in the cash shop

Fred makes $10/hr, Jim makes $20/hr

If they both buy the sword, Fred pays 1 hour in time, Jim pays 1/2 hour in time.

If there isn't a cash shop, they both pay 1 hour in time.

What is most fair?

To take it a step further, since we're talking about a game, say Jim is slightly better at the game. Now Fred pays 1 hour and Jim pays 1/2 hour again.

In both cases, Jim pays less.

The question is, since we're playing a game, should Jim be rewarded in that game for his better real life job or better in-game skill?

 

And the people questioning your logic will state that Jim actually have a work and a family and therefore can play maximum 2 hours each day while while Fred are unemployed and play 8 hours avery day. That is unfair too.

That is completely wrong. This is a judgment call on the value of each player's time. Take the emotion out - say Jim is unemployed and doesn't have a family, but he likes to practice his guitar. So Jim practices guitar 6 hours, plays the game for 2 while Fred doesn't play guitar and plays the 8 hours. Who should be further ahead in the game? Should Jim be able to trade his guitar skill for an advantage in the game?

If Jim is unemployed, how did he afford the guitar?  

Also, Fred only plays for two hours a day but he goes to an guitar instructor, pays for lessons and learns faster...so he plays better than Jim.  Should Jim be upset that Fred  is the better guitar player?

Yes, sub fee is just another form of pay2win.

Thanks, I see now.

Honestly, I haven't followed Guild Wars 2 as closely as I should be. Basically, I read a headline that mentioned there would be a cash shop. I know I'm being lazy but what kind of items are being sold in the cash shop? Is it vanity only like Blizzard does with World of Warcraft or are we talking about actualy gear that could potentially change the game a bit?

No, think of it this way, say you want to go to a themepark. Every person has to pay an entree fee, some people can pay multiple days packages, others will only pay one day. However, once inside everyone has to make the same lines to get into the games. That's a subscription game. Pay to win would resemble you paying a fast pass ticket that gets you straight to the game without having to do the line. A free game would resemble a park where you don't have an entrance fee, but you can buy fast track passes for each individual game.

Originally posted by Dream_Chaser

Now, this is a thought that occurred to me that amused me greatly. We have people hating on the cash shop, but isn't a subscription technically pay to win as well? Due to there being no skill involved in the vast majority of MMORPG releases, it all comes down to how much time you play for.

Let's say that I pay for one month out of four, I play, and I get some neat stuff. Let's say that you pay for all four moths and grind some really amazing shit. In PvP, let's say that gear decides things and the clear victory is yours. (This is the case in games like WoW.) Isn't that paying to win?

Again, just a thought exercise.

what you are talking about would be called -

P&P2W = pay and play to win.

how is this a thought exercise? seems obvious. a thought exercise is something that makes people think. this is just dumb...

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Originally posted by Cyberdeck7

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Originally posted by Size-Twelve
 

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 This makes time itself an advantage unique to MMO's, and much like a cash shop, it offers exclusive rewards.
In this way, I feel that the GW2 cash shop is actually MORE fair than a subscription.
 

---

Time is not an advantage. Everyone has the same amount to spend. 24hrs/day. That's it - everyone is the same. You can't "make" more time than anyone else. How you spend those 24hrs is up to you.
What's not up to you is to chose how valuable anyone else's time is. Judgments about the subjective quality of others' time spent are invalid.
Not everyone has the same amount of cash, by default, all the time.  You can make more cash than someone else.
Cash is the variable advantage. Time is a constant

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I agree that time is a constant, and you cannot make more than 24 hours in a day. This is why I'd question the fairness of a game where the best rewards were only available to those who could invest an 8 hour block of time 4 days a week to prepare.

I simply don't have that time available, and I cannot create any more. I will not quit my job, or leave my wife, so these rewards are simply unavailable to me. As I've said, with the subscription model and gear treadmill, I'm simply "paying to lose".

At least with the cash shop model, every reward is available to everyone at some price. You can always earn more money, but you cannot create more time. If an iWIN item did become available in the cash shop and the price was out of reach for most players, I would question the fairness of that system too.