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General Discussion  » Thought exercise: Is a subscription pay-to-win?

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187 posts found
  AIMonster

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/31/08
Posts: 2021

3/25/12 10:47:30 PM#61
Originally posted by Dreadblade
Originally posted by Magnum2103
Originally posted by Dreadblade

I can't believe the spin the OP is actually trying to put on this, lets justify the cash shop somehow, unbelievable. I guess it is ok as well to charge a full price pre purchase to get a spot in beta, something which has NEVER been done before, but you know ANET did it so lets fall on our hands and knees and praise them.

Well, in the OP's defense it's actually common practice now to offer beta spots to people who prepurchase games.  In fact, it's been done with several games over the last few years.  Not to mention the whole "head start" thing that is now common.

Mortal Online, Star Wars the Old Republic, and TERA are 3 examples of games that have done it.

I am not sure if you are aware of this or not but ANET is charging a Pre-Purchase (retail price) for a guaranteed beta slot, this is not the same as in the past with a pre-order which might have cost you 5 bucks. This is BS in my eyes, and is unprecendented in the industry.

I believe Mortal Online was full price.  You can't cancel a preorder from most online retailers so it was basically the same thing if you prepurchased from an online retailer SW:TOR or TERA.  It's not really unprecendented.  Either way you were still paying for beta access, whether it was $5-10 towards your preorder or full price.  The head starts are basically paying for full price for 1-3 days extra retail which is just as bad too.  Same goes with preorder bonuses.  Not justifying it, but these retailers only want people who are serious about the preorder, preordering the game.  If people just cancel their preorder it defeats the entire purpose of having preorders in the first place.

Raptr link because it's the cool new trend:

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16766

3/25/12 10:50:49 PM#62

Subscription is pay2win in EQ2. Heck, you get so much better by paying for it that free players have no chanse. They have worse gear and their skills do less damage.

  Dreadblade

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/26/08
Posts: 398

3/25/12 10:53:35 PM#63
Originally posted by Magnum2103
Originally posted by Dreadblade
Originally posted by Magnum2103
Originally posted by Dreadblade

I can't believe the spin the OP is actually trying to put on this, lets justify the cash shop somehow, unbelievable. I guess it is ok as well to charge a full price pre purchase to get a spot in beta, something which has NEVER been done before, but you know ANET did it so lets fall on our hands and knees and praise them.

Well, in the OP's defense it's actually common practice now to offer beta spots to people who prepurchase games.  In fact, it's been done with several games over the last few years.  Not to mention the whole "head start" thing that is now common.

Mortal Online, Star Wars the Old Republic, and TERA are 3 examples of games that have done it.

I am not sure if you are aware of this or not but ANET is charging a Pre-Purchase (retail price) for a guaranteed beta slot, this is not the same as in the past with a pre-order which might have cost you 5 bucks. This is BS in my eyes, and is unprecendented in the industry.

I believe Mortal Online was full price.  You can't cancel a preorder from most online retailers so it was basically the same thing if you prepurchased from an online retailer SW:TOR or TERA.  It's not really unprecendented.  Either way you were still paying for beta access, whether it was $5-10 towards your preorder or full price.  The head starts are basically paying for full price for 1-3 days extra retail which is just as bad too.  Same goes with preorder bonuses.  Not justifying it, but these retailers only want people who are serious about the preorder, preordering the game.  If people just cancel their preorder it defeats the entire purpose of having preorders in the first place.

See IMHO it is a marketing ploy and again one which no Major dev has charged full price before, MO has what 100 people playing it? I can always go to my local gamestop and cancel my pre order if I did not like the so called beta. Here they are sucking you in charging full price for a marketing ploy, it is not a real Beta let's get serious but if you think it is ok for them to do that knock yourself out on $50. Me I stand behind my principles I did not buy ME3 because of the day 1 DLC nor will I play this due to the cash shop and BS beta scam.

  User Deleted
3/25/12 10:54:32 PM#64
Originally posted by Loke666

Subscription is pay2win in EQ2. Heck, you get so much better by paying for it that free players have no chanse. They have worse gear and their skills do less damage.

It's exactly the same for free accounts in Anarchy Online. But that model has been around for Years. It's because you don't have access to all expansions

  FrodoFragins

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/29/10
Posts: 2775

3/25/12 10:55:03 PM#65

Nope.

 

It would be if they had scaled subscriptions where the higher prices allowed you to get an advantage.

  Dreadblade

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/26/08
Posts: 398

3/25/12 10:57:22 PM#66
Originally posted by Loke666

Subscription is pay2win in EQ2. Heck, you get so much better by paying for it that free players have no chanse. They have worse gear and their skills do less damage.

EQ2 was subscription first then they changed models, totally unrelated.

 

The question I keep asking myself is why is there such blind faith in a Dev that made a mediocre semi MMO (GW1) to begin with, backed by a money grubbing parent company called NCSoft, that at the end of the day all they really want is your money plain and simple. 

  Jakard

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/19/06
Posts: 417

3/25/12 10:58:19 PM#67

Gotta be honest. Have no idea what the OP is talking about. It went over my head.

  Dreadblade

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/26/08
Posts: 398

3/25/12 11:01:48 PM#68
Originally posted by Jakard

Gotta be honest. Have no idea what the OP is talking about. It went over my head.

He is trying to reverse spin the sub model, to justify the cash shop in a nutshell.

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15685

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

3/25/12 11:03:06 PM#69
Originally posted by Dreadblade
Originally posted by Jakard

Gotta be honest. Have no idea what the OP is talking about. It went over my head.

He is trying to reverse spin the sub model, to justify the cash shop in a nutshell.

The proverbial smoke-screen sums it up fairly well.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  User Deleted
3/25/12 11:05:35 PM#70

The premise of this thread was founded to kick around the idea that what ANet is doing is actually better for GW2 than traditional Revenue models.

To me, It's not. Because With the cash shop, they also said there will be sinks

It's these sinks that bother me. They will be there to reabsob currency to combat inflation from the cash shop. But this will burry the non cash shop user who will have to work that much harder to compensate.

And the other sinks. I would expect that what we are going to call "Items of Convienience" will have some kind of counter part in the game. The "sink" if you will,  that will be there to make us want the items in the shop. I think it's very naive to think that we can look at the items in the shop and say point blank. Those mean nothing to me. They are going t obe there for a reason. They wouldn't go through the trouble of putting something in there that has little to no value.

 

  AIMonster

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/31/08
Posts: 2021

3/25/12 11:05:50 PM#71
Originally posted by Dreadblade

See IMHO it is a marketing ploy and again one which no Major dev has charged full price before, MO has what 100 people playing it? I can always go to my local gamestop and cancel my pre order if I did not like the so called beta. Here they are sucking you in charging full price for a marketing ploy, it is not a real Beta let's get serious but if you think it is ok for them to do that knock yourself out on $50. Me I stand behind my principles I did not buy ME3 because of the day 1 DLC nor will I play this due to the cash shop and BS beta scam.

Betas really aren't suppose to be about getting players to decide whether they want to buy the game or not.  That's what demos and trials are for.  Betas are usually about testing the game (usually the public betas being stress tests on the servers) with a larger amount of people than their QA and Testers.  Preorders are to get a gauge of how many people are going to buy the game (especially Collector's Editions).  Besides, GW2 also has a free beta too that requires no prepurchase.

We're going off topic a bit here.

Raptr link because it's the cool new trend:

  Dreadblade

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/26/08
Posts: 398

3/25/12 11:07:11 PM#72

Someone the other day and I forget who nailed it on the head, all these companies have realized how lucrative the gold farming business is and now want a piece. That is really what they are doing nothing more nothing less and to me they are not any better.

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16766

3/25/12 11:09:25 PM#73
Originally posted by Dreadblade

EQ2 was subscription first then they changed models, totally unrelated.

The question I keep asking myself is why is there such blind faith in a Dev that made a mediocre semi MMO (GW1) to begin with, backed by a money grubbing parent company called NCSoft, that at the end of the day all they really want is your money plain and simple. 

In my case because I played GW for 5 years and love it. Just because you don't doesn't mean it is a bad game. I am pretty sure I am unimpressed by plenty of games you like as well without I calling them "mediocre".

And yeah, NC soft are money grabbing like all big publishing houses but they are nowhere near EA, Atari or Activision. AAA MMOs are sadly so expensive to make today that very few independent companies can make them.¨

I don't have blind fate, usually when I love a game  the sequel is at least worth the money and time to play it.

If you hated GW and havn't tried GW2 we can talk about blind fate though.

  evolver1972

Novice Member

Joined: 3/18/11
Posts: 1126

What is "real"? How do you define "real"?

3/25/12 11:14:32 PM#74
Originally posted by Dreadblade

I can't believe the spin the OP is actually trying to put on this, lets justify the cash shop somehow, unbelievable. I guess it is ok as well to charge a full price pre purchase to get a spot in beta, something which has NEVER been done before, but you know ANET did it so lets fall on our hands and knees and praise them.

The cash shop so far doesn't bother me as I've seen nothing I consider to be Pay2Win.

 

As for the pre purchase to get into beta - why should a company give beta access to just anyone?  I think that makes good business sense.  A beta is supposed to be a testing phase.  You do that testing with people who you think are going to actually play your game.  By granting beta access to those of us who pre purchase, they can get close to eliminating people who use the beta to figure out if they want to even play the game.  It's basically them protecting their brand and I see nothing wrong with that.

 

It sounds to me like your not that big a fan of Anet, which makes me think you won't be buying the game any time soon.  So, why then should YOU get into the beta at the expense of me (someone who will pre purchase) getting into it.  If it were a typical beta - fill out the application and hope to get picked - why should you be able to take a spot from me?

 

So, what about the Cash Shop don't you like?  Or did I just get caught walking over the Troll's bridge again?

You want me to pay to play a game I already paid for???

Be afraid.....The dragons are HERE!

  Dreadblade

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/26/08
Posts: 398

3/25/12 11:14:38 PM#75
Originally posted by Magnum2103
Originally posted by Dreadblade

See IMHO it is a marketing ploy and again one which no Major dev has charged full price before, MO has what 100 people playing it? I can always go to my local gamestop and cancel my pre order if I did not like the so called beta. Here they are sucking you in charging full price for a marketing ploy, it is not a real Beta let's get serious but if you think it is ok for them to do that knock yourself out on $50. Me I stand behind my principles I did not buy ME3 because of the day 1 DLC nor will I play this due to the cash shop and BS beta scam.

Betas really aren't suppose to be about getting players to decide whether they want to buy the game or not.  That's what demos and trials are for.  Betas are usually about testing the game (usually the public betas being stress tests on the servers) with a larger amount of people than their QA and Testers.  Preorders are to get a gauge of how many people are going to buy the game (especially Collector's Editions).  Besides, GW2 also has a free beta too that requires no prepurchase.

We're going off topic a bit here.

Again I must redspectfully disagree with you, but if you think that it is ok to charge full price for a guaranteed spot in this so called beta test that is your prerogative. 

  Size-Twelve

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/10/05
Posts: 493

See you in Washington

3/25/12 11:14:43 PM#76


Originally posted by Distopia


Originally posted by Dreadblade


Originally posted by Jakard

Gotta be honest. Have no idea what the OP is talking about. It went over my head.


He is trying to reverse spin the sub model, to justify the cash shop in a nutshell.


The proverbial smoke-screen sums it up fairly well.


I don't think that's fair. The only smoke in this thread seems to be coming from subscription model supporters, who either don't comprehend the OP, or who do understand it, but aren't offering any reasonimg behind why time is somehow less valuable than money.

There also appears to be a huge gap in knowledge about how this game is structured, and how far cash items can actually take you.

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16766

3/25/12 11:14:43 PM#77
Originally posted by Dreadblade

Someone the other day and I forget who nailed it on the head, all these companies have realized how lucrative the gold farming business is and now want a piece. That is really what they are doing nothing more nothing less and to me they are not any better.

So it is as bad to have a cashshop as to hijack peoples accounts? Because that is how most gold sellers got their money nowadays.

Don't get me wrong here, RMT suck but you are comparing someone who download music from piratebay with someone who robs people.

  kadepsyson

Novice Member

Joined: 5/15/06
Posts: 1966

The doctors say his chances are 50/50...but there's only a 10% chance of that.

3/25/12 11:18:45 PM#78
Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by Dreadblade

Someone the other day and I forget who nailed it on the head, all these companies have realized how lucrative the gold farming business is and now want a piece. That is really what they are doing nothing more nothing less and to me they are not any better.

So it is as bad to have a cashshop as to hijack peoples accounts? Because that is how most gold sellers got their money nowadays.

Don't get me wrong here, RMT suck but you are comparing someone who download music from piratebay with someone who robs people.

Protip - downloading music illegally IS stealing.

El Psy Congroo

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15685

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

3/25/12 11:21:52 PM#79
Originally posted by kadepsyson
Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by Dreadblade

Someone the other day and I forget who nailed it on the head, all these companies have realized how lucrative the gold farming business is and now want a piece. That is really what they are doing nothing more nothing less and to me they are not any better.

So it is as bad to have a cashshop as to hijack peoples accounts? Because that is how most gold sellers got their money nowadays.

Don't get me wrong here, RMT suck but you are comparing someone who download music from piratebay with someone who robs people.

Protip - downloading music illegally IS stealing.

I don't think it is in Sweden.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  Dreadblade

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/26/08
Posts: 398

3/25/12 11:25:55 PM#80
Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by Dreadblade

Someone the other day and I forget who nailed it on the head, all these companies have realized how lucrative the gold farming business is and now want a piece. That is really what they are doing nothing more nothing less and to me they are not any better.

So it is as bad to have a cashshop as to hijack peoples accounts? Because that is how most gold sellers got their money nowadays.

Don't get me wrong here, RMT suck but you are comparing someone who download music from piratebay with someone who robs people.

No all I am saying is they want a piece of that multi million dollar business

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