Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh

In a Sub model, you win because you want it more than the other guy

Simple as that. You want to be great in WoW's areans...Practice and get better, Sky's the limit.

And if you want to be the best in GW2 you practice and get better.

Competitive PvP in GW2 has no gear grind, gives you access to all skills and traits and you have access to it after the ten minute starting area. Everything you gain from PvPing gives you Glory which can be used to unlock new cosmetic armor and weapons but none of it has any better stats then what new comers get.

In WoW first you have to get to level 80, and then you have to grind to get gear so you have a chance at winning. Not to mention that they have a completely seperate gear grind for both PvP and PvE so you can have max level PvE and still have no chance of winning in the arena until you grind PvP gear, and vice versa.

Originally posted by Ezekel

Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh

In a Sub model, you win because you want it more than the other guy

Simple as that. You want to be great in WoW's areans...Practice and get better, Sky's the limit.

And if you want to be the best in GW2 you practice and get better.

Competitive PvP in GW2 has no gear grind, gives you access to all skills and traits and you have access to it after the ten minute starting area. Everything you gain from PvPing gives you Glory which can be used to unlock new cosmetic armor and weapons but none of it has any better stats then what new comers get.

In WoW first you have to get to level 80, and then you have to grind to get gear so you have a chance at winning. Not to mention that they have a completely seperate gear grind for both PvP and PvE so you can have max level PvE and still have no chance of winning in the arena until you grind PvP gear, and vice versa.

Microtransactions not witstanding, If you want to say that the subscription model planned for GW2 is best suited for this game as opposed to the standard WoW types, and that likewise, GW2 is probably not the best example of a game that would benefit from a $15/mo pay plan, I can agree with this.

In most sub games, because the standard model is an extremely long power grind...

... it's 'have a lot of spare time' 2 win.

Basically sub games reward people who are willing to dedicate their lives tothe game.

Some people feel that they can love a game, but have a brief schedule due to lots of RL constraints, but that they're being punished for that and would like to move some of their RL efforts to where they can catch up with people who have no lives.  So they're okay with the idea of converting RL money to catch up with people who have an excess of spare time.

Of course the problem with that is then you can have somebody with no life who ALSO has a lot of money.

Which is why I hate the idle rich.

Stupid rich people with spare time.

(Note.  I will be incredibly hypocritical if I ever win the lottery, and totally disavow I ever said any of this)

I wouldn't say it's pay to win, because the subscription is required to play the game. Everyone has to pay it. If you don't pay it that means you're not playing the game, and you're not disadvantaged because you're not paying. You're disadvantaged because you're not playing, assuming it was a grind game. If it's not a grind game, then your only problem would be you can't access the game.

In subscription games you get everything in the game (Except for greed riddled games like WoW). Before the age of DLC, you got everything on the disc as well in console online games.

You can't pay more of a subscription to get a bigger advantage against someone in a P2P game.

Originally posted by Dream_Chaser

Now, this is a thought that occurred to me that amused me greatly. We have people hating on the cash shop, but isn't a subscription technically pay to win as well? Due to there being no skill involved in the vast majority of MMORPG releases, it all comes down to how much time you play for.

Let's say that I pay for one month out of four, I play, and I get some neat stuff. Let's say that you pay for all four moths and grind some really amazing shit. In PvP, let's say that gear decides things and the clear victory is yours. (This is the case in games like WoW.) Isn't that paying to win?

Again, just a thought exercise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial

Seriously, realize it if you're anything but outraged at the cash shop or making justifications about it...

I'm going to pitch a concept here... a game where you log in and are immediately presented with a picture of your mother (or mother figure) and are told in a soothing voice, " You're a winner champ. Nobody is better than you. Mommy loves you".

NO time investment required.

NO monetary investment required.

NO intelligence required.

EVERYBODY WINS!

NO ONE IS SAD!

Mark my words people. THIS is the future of MMOs.

Originally posted by rhavok

Well, I am not sure how the cash shop works out in GW2 and I don't want to give false information about it, so I won't make assumptions as to what is for sale in it.

However, with WoW, or any other P2P game.  That fifteen dollars is only for access to the world, and that is all it promises.  There is no promise of exceptional gear, exp gain, increased bag space, or a novelty armor appearance.   In a subscription game, I cannot pay extra to level faster, run faster, have more storage, or anything else.  A person who can spend more money than another has no real advantage over someone who can't.

In a game with a cash-shop, you have the edge if you have more money to spend.  Even if it is as simplistic as buying bag space.  That money promises a slight advantage over someone who does not pay the money.

Just my thoughts.

Then in a sub game they should make it "illegal" to obtain larger bags from a friend that is a high level tailor, because that gives a low level an advantage that others don't have.....

We should just adopt the pay by hour model they use in the East so people would just quit crying already. Most people don't even understand the defintion of pay 2 win and use it too loosely.

Just a thought exercise: Would Dream_Chaser create a new topic explaining the rest of us how it's actually a good idea to eat shit, if Anet would announce that eating shit is part of the GW2 experience?

Originally posted by UOvet

We should just adopt the pay by hour model they use in the East so people would just quit crying already. Most people don't even understand the defintion of pay 2 win and use it too loosely.

Wrong reply sorry.

As far as I know, EVE is the only MMORPG where paying for sub time gives you an advantage over other players by rewarding you for the money you spend.

In any other case, it isn't so much how long you sub but how much time you play while you are subbed. There are people who put more time into the first month of their MMO sub than I do in 4.

So no, subscription isn't anything like pay to win except in one very rare case, and even there, once you get a certain point down the road even that becomes irrelevant.

Here's another thought exercise...

Try subscribing to a game for an entire year, and never play.  Then, at the end of the year, logon to the game and see how powerful you are.

My guess is...you'll be just as powerful as the day you bought the game.  And that is why subscription is not P2W...it's pay to PLAY.  If you don't play...you do not get more powerful.

Originally posted by MMOarQQ

I'm going to pitch a concept here... a game where you log in and are immediately presented with a picture of your mother (or mother figure) and are told in a soothing voice, " You're a winner champ. Nobody is better than you. Mommy loves you".

NO time investment required.

NO monetary investment required.

NO intelligence required.

EVERYBODY WINS!

NO ONE IS SAD!

 

Mark my words people. THIS is the future of MMOs.

*falls to knees screaming "NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"* i could almost believe you...

No. In a subscription model you're not paying for time to play. You're paying for access to the game. Its not pay-to-win, It's pay-to-play.  The thing nice thing about a sub based game: Once you've paid your entrance fee, money should have nothing to do with how the game plays.

Originally posted by Amjoco

Originally posted by UOvet

We should just adopt the pay by hour model they use in the East so people would just quit crying already. Most people don't even understand the defintion of pay 2 win and use it too loosely.

Or better yet, why not offer both a subscription and a cash shop so we have a choice?

EQ2 already does this.  They have a cash shop whether you pay monthly or play f2p style.  They've had it for years and to my knowledge (I played for 7 years) it was never a problem due to what they had IN the shop.  I don't think the problem is the cash shop itself, I think it is what is IN the shop.  The "convienience items" are definitely borderline or totally not cool in some peoples' minds.  I understand that, myself.  Personally, I'm not sure how I feel about it.  I would have been happier had it stayed with the same things that were in GW1 shop rather than adding gems to gold and gold to gems conversion.  I know I don't like THAT much of the shop.

Gems need to go away, imo, or be account bound.

And I repeat....there are forms of cheating in sub games too, like when a high level tailor makes a lowbie a bunch of bags.  Yes, that certainly gives some advantage, but it's done all the time.

I honestly feel as though the post went over the heads of some people, or... maybe it's just fans of old systems clinging so hard to the past that they want to misrepresent things on some level. Can't tell. Not relevant.

Anyway, the point is is that you pay for the privelege of paying. If someone is able to pay less, they have less of an advantage. Therefore, the person who can pay more, can play more. Thus, that person will have more of an advantage. And logically that leads us to the conclusion that the person who can pay to subscribe more often is paying to win. Because they're paying for faster progression than the other guy is.

If someone can only pay for three months out of a year, and someone can pay for the whole year, then the latter is paying for a whole year's worth of advantages. Bringing in the 'play' element is obviously semantics, because everyone is going to be playing the game anyway. So essentially, a subscription viewed in this light can be as pay-to-win as a cash shop.

Either that, or, the point I'm trying to make is what someone else said: Pay-to-win doesn't really have a definition, and it's just a buzz word people use to hate on the MMORPG they don't like. I brought up the subscription argument because I find it less ridiculous than some of the other pay-to-win arguments I've seen going around about Guild Wars 2.

I really don't have a lot to add to this other than to say, great question. A very interesting perspective you've brought us OP, and something to think about.

---

Originally posted by Creslin321
Here's another thought exercise...
Try subscribing to a game for an entire year, and never play.  Then, at the end of the year, logon to the game and see how powerful you are.
My guess is...you'll be just as powerful as the day you bought the game.  And that is why subscription is not P2W...it's pay to PLAY.  If you don't play...you do not get more powerful.

---

Isn't that the equivalent of purchasing ~$150 in gems and just deleting them?

Originally posted by Cromica

P2P is even playing field.

 

an even playing field where everyone is losing. The only winners are the developers charging and dont delivering enough. But you cant argue with loyal payers since they are blind

Originally posted by Dream_Chaser

Now, this is a thought that occurred to me that amused me greatly. We have people hating on the cash shop, but isn't a subscription technically pay to win as well? Due to there being no skill involved in the vast majority of MMORPG releases, it all comes down to how much time you play for.

Let's say that I pay for one month out of four, I play, and I get some neat stuff. Let's say that you pay for all four moths and grind some really amazing shit. In PvP, let's say that gear decides things and the clear victory is yours. (This is the case in games like WoW.) Isn't that paying to win?

Again, just a thought exercise.

Oh i think it's definitely NOT a thought exercise because if you apply the same model that these people claiming that buying a potion to increase experience would in a game like GW2 somehow grant a benefit, then having a sub would apply the same way because it allows an advantage technically over those who are on trial accounts. Before anyone laughs it's exactly as stupid as it sounds and is exactly as stupid as the experience potion argument they've made about GW2 shop.