Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by Zekiah

No, gamers who buy the hype is.

 

This, no game is perfect and companies do make bad decisions about every release, however there is a subset of gamers who do the most damage to a forthcoming release by refusing to admit to anything that is a negative. There are many recent examples of this.

You don't say..........

I can't imagine where I can find people who do this.

Originally posted by Skatty2007

I don't think hype is an MMO's worst enemy.  I think creating a crappy MMO is an MMO's worst enemy.

^^^^^

THIS

and hyping said crappy MMO as awesomesauce

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by Sythion

Originally posted by Zekiah

What makes you think MMO companies of today design games to last outside of quick box sales and a few months? These jackwagons are moving/firing/transferring staff before launch and most of them already working on their F2P model/scam.

subscriptions = money. 2 months play > revenue than a box sale if purchased from an in-store retailer. You'd have to be an idiot not to care.

Also, maybe don't be a conspiracy theorist if you want credibility.

well the problem is the options of possibilities.

its one of two possibles

1. either they are smart enough to be hoodwinking us this way

2. they all went to over priced colleges but are still amazingly stupid.

 

I am not sure which but most conspircy theories develop under the assumption that the people in charge are not actually morons which is the only other option.

3. The MMO market is saturated and extremely expensive, causing publishers to avoid risk by making similar products to those that are successful, utlimately leading to loss of money for publisher, and disappointment for the customer.

Originally posted by Sythion

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

Originally posted by Sythion

Originally posted by Zekiah

What makes you think MMO companies of today design games to last outside of quick box sales and a few months? These jackwagons are moving/firing/transferring staff before launch and most of them already working on their F2P model/scam.

subscriptions = money. 2 months play > revenue than a box sale if purchased from an in-store retailer. You'd have to be an idiot not to care.

Also, maybe don't be a conspiracy theorist if you want credibility.

well the problem is the options of possibilities.

its one of two possibles

1. either they are smart enough to be hoodwinking us this way

2. they all went to over priced colleges but are still amazingly stupid.

 

I am not sure which but most conspircy theories develop under the assumption that the people in charge are not actually morons which is the only other option.

3. The MMO market is saturated and extremely expensive, causing publishers to avoid risk by making similar products to those that are successful, utlimately leading to loss of money for publisher, and disappointment for the customer.

aka...stupid.

gamers are generally progressive people when it comes to innovation. this is a space to not be overly careful about change. I dont know why they do not understand that OR maybe the technology is just really that hard and slow to move in different directions which also might be the case

Originally posted by grndzro

My point about the GW2 hype is that we'v seen plenty of info that is exciting. The Devs are not keeping a bunch of game details secret. We see everything that is going to be in game pretty much. 

So the hype really isn't hype but excitement over being able to play what we have seen.

Hype generally refers to hope.

There isn't many surprises surrounding GW2 and it's features. and we are still excited about it.

So what happens in a game ANY game when "New and exciting" becomes old and boring? How long does that take? GW2 is still new and exciting because it's not old and boring yet.

In WoW, how many times can you run a heroic dungeon for fun? If WoW dungeons had no reward system other than "GJ" how many times would you run them? Once GW2 content has been expereinced, there is no need to continue playing (for most anyway)

You have posted your opinion as a fact without really looking at all sides.

You hype a game and those hypes depends on what you want from this game,then game release and you actually play the final product. Then it comes to if you ar disapointet or you love the game.Hypes are what people are hoping mostly.

Originally posted by Dusntmatter

Hype may initially sell boxes, but that is a very short sighted approach. 

With the MMO genre, a game's lifespan is more important than intial box sales. We have yet to see a hyped game stay as strong after a year as it was hyped. 

Hype also seems to follow a ladder structure, the next step will always be better than the previous. "SWTOR sucks, GW 2 will be the savior of MMO's", and now it's "GW 2 sucks, Secret World will change it all", and after GW 2 it will be "Secret World sucks, Archeage will revolutionize!". 

This has been going on for at least as long as I have been here. I don't think sadly that's ever going to change.

Hype isn't the issue, it is our unrealistic expectations. 

And this isn't strictly a gaming industry issue.  What people want vs what they are willing/able to pay are completely out of wack.

Originally posted by Melangell

Originally posted by Dusntmatter

Hype may initially sell boxes, but that is a very short sighted approach. 

With the MMO genre, a game's lifespan is more important than intial box sales. We have yet to see a hyped game stay as strong after a year as it was hyped. 

Hype also seems to follow a ladder structure, the next step will always be better than the previous. "SWTOR sucks, GW 2 will be the savior of MMO's", and now it's "GW 2 sucks, Secret World will change it all", and after GW 2 it will be "Secret World sucks, Archeage will revolutionize!". 

This has been going on for at least as long as I have been here. I don't think sadly that's ever going to change.

its fun though to read people posting how a game that isnt even out yet is better than game XYZ. even better when they get into specific features like 'the crafting system of Secret World is much better than Fallen Earth'

Originally posted by Sythion

Originally posted by Zekiah

What makes you think MMO companies of today design games to last outside of quick box sales and a few months? These jackwagons are moving/firing/transferring staff before launch and most of them already working on their F2P model/scam.

subscriptions = money. 2 months play > revenue than a box sale if purchased from an in-store retailer. You'd have to be an idiot not to care.

Also, maybe don't be a conspiracy theorist if you want credibility.

Conspiracy theorist eh? I don't really care if you think I'm "credible" or not.

If developers really cared about subscriptions, they'd design games that weren't founded on one-time content and all up front bling, ie marketing and hype. They'd also not design games with dead, linear worlds.

But most of all, if they had plans for the future, they'd FIX WHAT WAS BROKEN OR NEVER IMPLEMENTED! They simply don't do that because they dont' care, they got their box revenue.

Any subscriptions they hold after three months is gravy, they're already shuffling staff for their next project. They know the odds of hitting another "WoW" number-wise is extremely slim so instead they move from crappy project to crappy project.

Wonder why SWTOR is designed more like a single player game than a MMO? Simple, all fun and "reward" is designed to be up front to make the tester believe the entire game is going to be great when in actuality it's not. They grab their quick box sales, leave a skeleton crew to keep the suckers stringing along, and move their staff over to another project and/or a F2P model.

This is no mystery, it's been done time after time over the last several years. It's a system that works, at least it works for them, not us. If you want to believe that the majority of developers these days are designing for longevity well then, I'd say that you are the one interested in conspiracy theories.

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

its fun though to read people posting how a game that isnt even out yet is better than game XYZ. even better when they get into specific features like 'the crafting system of Secret World is much better than Fallen Earth'

That's the thing. Eventually the hype becomes predictable. It's like there is some invisible hype sheet where you fill in the blanks for game/some feature but the rest is something you have heard somewhere before at some point. Proof really is in the pudding. I'm a buy a game on release day girl now adays or even after release day. But yea it's interesting to watch the cogs of the wheels go round endlessly!

Originally posted by Zekiah

Originally posted by Sythion

Originally posted by Zekiah

What makes you think MMO companies of today design games to last outside of quick box sales and a few months? These jackwagons are moving/firing/transferring staff before launch and most of them already working on their F2P model/scam.

subscriptions = money. 2 months play > revenue than a box sale if purchased from an in-store retailer. You'd have to be an idiot not to care.

Also, maybe don't be a conspiracy theorist if you want credibility.

Conspiracy theorist eh? I don't really care if you think I'm "credible" or not.

If developers really cared about subscriptions, they'd design games that weren't founded on one-time content and all up front bling, ie marketing and hype. They'd also not design games with dead, linear worlds.

But most of all, if they had plans for the future, they'd FIX WHAT WAS BROKEN OR NEVER IMPLEMENTED! They simply don't do that because they dont' care, they got their box revenue.

Any subscriptions they hold after three months is gravy, they're already shuffling staff for their next project. They know the odds of hitting another "WoW" number-wise is extremely slim so instead they move from crappy project to crappy project.

Wonder why SWTOR is designed more like a single player game than a MMO? Simple, all fun and "reward" is designed to be up front to make the tester believe the entire game is going to be great when in actuality it's not. They grab their quick box sales, leave a skeleton crew to keep the suckers stringing along, and move their staff over to another project and/or a F2P model.

This is no mystery, it's been done time after time over the last several years. It's a system that works, at least it works for them, not us. If you want to believe that the majority of developers these days are designing for longevity well then, I'd say that you are the one interested in conspiracy theories.

Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by Zekiah

Originally posted by Sythion

Originally posted by Zekiah

What makes you think MMO companies of today design games to last outside of quick box sales and a few months? These jackwagons are moving/firing/transferring staff before launch and most of them already working on their F2P model/scam.

subscriptions = money. 2 months play > revenue than a box sale if purchased from an in-store retailer. You'd have to be an idiot not to care.

Also, maybe don't be a conspiracy theorist if you want credibility.

Conspiracy theorist eh? I don't really care if you think I'm "credible" or not.

If developers really cared about subscriptions, they'd design games that weren't founded on one-time content and all up front bling, ie marketing and hype. They'd also not design games with dead, linear worlds.

But most of all, if they had plans for the future, they'd FIX WHAT WAS BROKEN OR NEVER IMPLEMENTED! They simply don't do that because they dont' care, they got their box revenue.

Any subscriptions they hold after three months is gravy, they're already shuffling staff for their next project. They know the odds of hitting another "WoW" number-wise is extremely slim so instead they move from crappy project to crappy project.

Wonder why SWTOR is designed more like a single player game than a MMO? Simple, all fun and "reward" is designed to be up front to make the tester believe the entire game is going to be great when in actuality it's not. They grab their quick box sales, leave a skeleton crew to keep the suckers stringing along, and move their staff over to another project and/or a F2P model.

This is no mystery, it's been done time after time over the last several years. It's a system that works, at least it works for them, not us. If you want to believe that the majority of developers these days are designing for longevity well then, I'd say that you are the one interested in conspiracy theories.

 

This is very true, look at CCP, the client costs a €5 and they don't charge for expansions, all the Dev incentive is to make a game it's audience want to stay subbed to.

Exactly. They chose a long-term model full of open-ended content.

Hmm, design a game around the theory of pleasing the customer instead of the suits. Imagine that. How "innovative". 

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

I think it migth be done on purpose to increase box sales without being to concerned about keeping customers.

I agree.  Most of us see MMORPGs as a service industry.  Distributors / Publishers see MMORPGs as a flash revenue stream from box sales.  It makes tons and tons of money.

After release, limp along as long as it can.  Do a Free to Play conversion (screwing everyone who paid for the game) and then milk the whales who spend hundreds on cash shop items.    That too makes tons of money.

I think this is the new norm.

Originally posted by Zekiah

Conspiracy theorist eh? I don't really care if you think I'm "credible" or not.

If developers really cared about subscriptions, they'd design games that weren't founded on one-time content and all up front bling, ie marketing and hype. They'd also not design games with dead, linear worlds.

But most of all, if they had plans for the future, they'd FIX WHAT WAS BROKEN OR NEVER IMPLEMENTED! They simply don't do that because they dont' care, they got their box revenue.

Any subscriptions they hold after three months is gravy, they're already shuffling staff for their next project. They know the odds of hitting another "WoW" number-wise is extremely slim so instead they move from crappy project to crappy project.

Wonder why SWTOR is designed more like a single player game than a MMO? Simple, all fun and "reward" is designed to be up front to make the tester believe the entire game is going to be great when in actuality it's not. They grab their quick box sales, leave a skeleton crew to keep the suckers stringing along, and move their staff over to another project and/or a F2P model.

This is no mystery, it's been done time after time over the last several years. It's a system that works, at least it works for them, not us. If you want to believe that the majority of developers these days are designing for longevity well then, I'd say that you are the one interested in conspiracy theories.

Thank you for the gentle serve.

Basically you're arguing that game makers don't take enough time (ie. money) before release, and focus on the wrong things. And they do this to be evil and rip off gamers.

You use SW:ToR as an example. This is a game that has been publicly announced to cost 200 million dollars. Assuming they get 75% profit from each sale means $45. 2 million purchases for this would be less than HALF the money they need to even recoup their cost. If they only cared about box sales, this would be the least profitable business venture  IN GAMING HISTORY. Their plan is, and always was, to work off subs. Their goal for profitability is 500,000 users.

Your second point, that SW:ToR somehow has more reward up front, is just incorrect. The rewards are steady throughout the game. Unless, that is, you are talking about end game content (that is, content after the game has ended). If that's the case then no TP game will satsify you (More detail in my Progressionist vs Qualitist thread), but that does not matter.

The fact is SW:ToR developers want the same thing you want: a game world that its players can use for a long, long time. Their success to that is questionable for most, and definitely a complete failure in the eyes of Progressionists.

It's not an evil scam to try to take your money and run. The numbers just don't work that way...

But I guess if it makes you feel better to have someone to blame, you can keep your tin-hat on for as long as you'd like.

Originally posted by Sythion

Originally posted by Zekiah

Conspiracy theorist eh? I don't really care if you think I'm "credible" or not.

If developers really cared about subscriptions, they'd design games that weren't founded on one-time content and all up front bling, ie marketing and hype. They'd also not design games with dead, linear worlds.

But most of all, if they had plans for the future, they'd FIX WHAT WAS BROKEN OR NEVER IMPLEMENTED! They simply don't do that because they dont' care, they got their box revenue.

Any subscriptions they hold after three months is gravy, they're already shuffling staff for their next project. They know the odds of hitting another "WoW" number-wise is extremely slim so instead they move from crappy project to crappy project.

Wonder why SWTOR is designed more like a single player game than a MMO? Simple, all fun and "reward" is designed to be up front to make the tester believe the entire game is going to be great when in actuality it's not. They grab their quick box sales, leave a skeleton crew to keep the suckers stringing along, and move their staff over to another project and/or a F2P model.

This is no mystery, it's been done time after time over the last several years. It's a system that works, at least it works for them, not us. If you want to believe that the majority of developers these days are designing for longevity well then, I'd say that you are the one interested in conspiracy theories.

Thank you for the gentle serve.

Basically you're arguing that game makers don't take enough time (ie. money) before release, and focus on the wrong things. And they do this to be evil and rip off gamers.

You use SW:ToR as an example. This is a game that has been publicly announced to cost 200 million dollars. Assuming they get 75% profit from each sale means $45. 2 million purchases for this would be less than HALF the money they need to even recoup their cost. If they only cared about box sales, this would be the least profitable business venture  IN GAMING HISTORY. Their plan is, and always was, to work off subs. Their goal for profitability is 500,000 users.

Your second point, that SW:ToR somehow has more reward up front, is just incorrect. The rewards are steady throughout the game. Unless, that is, you are talking about end game content (that is, content after the game has ended). If that's the case then no TP game will satsify you (More detail in my Progressionist vs Qualitist thread), but that does not matter.

The fact is SW:ToR developers want the same thing you want: a game world that its players can use for a long, long time. Their success to that is questionable for most, and definitely a complete failure in the eyes of Progressionists.

It's not an evil scam to try to take your money and run. The numbers just don't work that way...

But I guess if it makes you feel better to have someone to blame, you can keep your tin-hat on for as long as you'd like.

ok for the sake of debate lets flip the entire argument.

if its not a conspiracy  then WTF are they thinking? at least the theory grants the developers with half a brain otherwise I really dont get it.

Originally posted by Sythion

Originally posted by Zekiah

Conspiracy theorist eh? I don't really care if you think I'm "credible" or not.

If developers really cared about subscriptions, they'd design games that weren't founded on one-time content and all up front bling, ie marketing and hype. They'd also not design games with dead, linear worlds.

But most of all, if they had plans for the future, they'd FIX WHAT WAS BROKEN OR NEVER IMPLEMENTED! They simply don't do that because they dont' care, they got their box revenue.

Any subscriptions they hold after three months is gravy, they're already shuffling staff for their next project. They know the odds of hitting another "WoW" number-wise is extremely slim so instead they move from crappy project to crappy project.

Wonder why SWTOR is designed more like a single player game than a MMO? Simple, all fun and "reward" is designed to be up front to make the tester believe the entire game is going to be great when in actuality it's not. They grab their quick box sales, leave a skeleton crew to keep the suckers stringing along, and move their staff over to another project and/or a F2P model.

This is no mystery, it's been done time after time over the last several years. It's a system that works, at least it works for them, not us. If you want to believe that the majority of developers these days are designing for longevity well then, I'd say that you are the one interested in conspiracy theories.

Thank you for the gentle serve.

Basically you're arguing that game makers don't take enough time (ie. money) before release, and focus on the wrong things. And they do this to be evil and rip off gamers.

Basically, yes. Their goal, as corporate beasts, is to put in the least amount of effort for the most amount of money. The problem with SWTOR is, the foundation of their game is bad and they spent most of their money on the wrong areas.

You use SW:ToR as an example. This is a game that has been publicly announced to cost 200 million dollars. Assuming they get 75% profit from each sale means $45. 2 million purchases for this would be less than HALF the money they need to even recoup their cost. If they only cared about box sales, this would be the least profitable business venture  IN GAMING HISTORY. Their plan is, and always was, to work off subs. Their goal for profitability is 500,000 users.

Your second point, that SW:ToR somehow has more reward up front, is just incorrect. The rewards are steady throughout the game. Unless, that is, you are talking about end game content (that is, content after the game has ended). If that's the case then no TP game will satsify you (More detail in my Progressionist vs Qualitist thread), but that does not matter.

Yeah, they kinda goofed now, didn't they? They blew their wad mostly on one-time content and are left with a dead/lifeless world full of half-a$$ systems like space on rails, crafting etc. Now they're in a pickle and I'm guessing they're scrambling to:

A) Throw out as much one-time content as possible to string gamers along

B) Give in to whiners over any/everything they can 

C) Hope and pray enough suckers hang around until they throw out something half-worthy

No matter what they do, they're in a bit of trouble on this one. They got cocky and overshot, gamers are starting to wake up to what's going on.

The fact is SW:ToR developers want the same thing you want: a game world that its players can use for a long, long time. Their success to that is questionable for most, and definitely a complete failure in the eyes of Progressionists.

Nope, sorry. If they wanted what I want, they wouldn't be half-a$$ing everything. Space on rails? Really? Stationary NPCs that pretend to be fighting? No swimming? Dead, lifeless worlds with no ambiance? Linear questing/world content where you get smacked down if you want to deviate? Nope, not what I want at all, it's what they want us to want. Not gonna happen.

It's not an evil scam to try to take your money and run. The numbers just don't work that way...

So, you agree they're doing that then?

But I guess if it makes you feel better to have someone to blame, you can keep your tin-hat on for as long as you'd like.

No tin hat needed here, just simple observation of recent history. I would however like to inquire as to where you purchased those rose-colored specs though.

Above in red.

---

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

---

Originally posted by Sythion

---

Originally posted by Zekiah
Conspiracy theorist eh? I don't really care if you think I'm "credible" or not.
If developers really cared about subscriptions, they'd design games that weren't founded on one-time content and all up front bling, ie marketing and hype. They'd also not design games with dead, linear worlds.
But most of all, if they had plans for the future, they'd FIX WHAT WAS BROKEN OR NEVER IMPLEMENTED! They simply don't do that because they dont' care, they got their box revenue.
Any subscriptions they hold after three months is gravy, they're already shuffling staff for their next project. They know the odds of hitting another "WoW" number-wise is extremely slim so instead they move from crappy project to crappy project.
Wonder why SWTOR is designed more like a single player game than a MMO? Simple, all fun and "reward" is designed to be up front to make the tester believe the entire game is going to be great when in actuality it's not. They grab their quick box sales, leave a skeleton crew to keep the suckers stringing along, and move their staff over to another project and/or a F2P model.
This is no mystery, it's been done time after time over the last several years. It's a system that works, at least it works for them, not us. If you want to believe that the majority of developers these days are designing for longevity well then, I'd say that you are the one interested in conspiracy theories.

---

Thank you for the gentle serve.
Basically you're arguing that game makers don't take enough time (ie. money) before release, and focus on the wrong things. And they do this to be evil and rip off gamers.
You use SW:ToR as an example. This is a game that has been publicly announced to cost 200 million dollars. Assuming they get 75% profit from each sale means $45. 2 million purchases for this would be less than HALF the money they need to even recoup their cost. If they only cared about box sales, this would be the least profitable business venture  IN GAMING HISTORY. Their plan is, and always was, to work off subs. Their goal for profitability is 500,000 users.
Your second point, that SW:ToR somehow has more reward up front, is just incorrect. The rewards are steady throughout the game. Unless, that is, you are talking about end game content (that is, content after the game has ended). If that's the case then no TP game will satsify you (More detail in my Progressionist vs Qualitist thread), but that does not matter.
The fact is SW:ToR developers want the same thing you want: a game world that its players can use for a long, long time. Their success to that is questionable for most, and definitely a complete failure in the eyes of Progressionists.
It's not an evil scam to try to take your money and run. The numbers just don't work that way...
But I guess if it makes you feel better to have someone to blame, you can keep your tin-hat on for as long as you'd like.

---

ok for the sake of debate lets flip the entire argument.
if its not a conspiracy  then WTF are they thinking? at least the theory grants the developers with half a brain otherwise I really dont get it.

---

You know, I was actually leaning towards the conspiracy theory at 1st, but then your comment about developers with half a brain and you know what?
All kidding aside, I really think the devs did in fact NOT use their brains. THey chrged blindly into a project with no regard banking on (WoW Clone)+ (SW IP)=$$$$$$

If you break down the game, it has nothing a successful MMO should have. It separates players from each other at every turn. It tells you your own story....but has an ending. It's like they tried to make a hybrid with what they did well SPRPG with what the best selling MMOs did well and marry them. But the SPRPG functions they build are inherently running in contention with what is the MM of the MMO. It's like they tried to combine the front halves of 2 FWD cars together as a hybrid. Yeah sure, if functions, but it's not really going to go anywhere.

Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh

 

---

 

You know, I was actually leaning towards the conspiracy theory at 1st, but then your comment about developers with half a brain and you know what?
All kidding aside, I really think the devs did in fact NOT use their brains. THey chrged blindly into a project with no regard banking on (WoW Clone)+ (SW IP)=$$$$$$

If you break down the game, it has nothing a successful MMO should have. It separates players from each other at every turn. It tells you your own story....but has an ending. It's like they tried to make a hybrid with what they did well SPRPG with what the best selling MMOs did well and marry them. But the SPRPG functions they build are inherently running in contention with what is the MM of the MMO. It's like they tried to combine the front halves of 2 FWD cars together as a hybrid. Yeah sure, if functions, but it's not really going to go anywhere.

BUT, the key word here is IT. we really arent talking about one game, we are talking about several. So as I see it there is really only 3 possible stories here.

1. conspiracy

2. dev companies have no brains

3. people actually do like those games and they are making money.

The only one I take comfort in is number 1 but it very well could be number 3

Originally posted by Zekiah

Nope, sorry. If they wanted what I want, they wouldn't be half-a$$ing everything. Space on rails? Really? ...

So the most expensive game every made is half-a$$ing everything?

Wow... maybe they should have invested $500 million instead!

I'm sure investing half a billion dollars trying to appease you is just as financially viable as mimicking the general game design of the most successful and profitable game in history, and adding a bit extra features to appeal to a new set of consumers. For making that choice, they are obviously incompetent.