Originally posted by gainesvilleg

Originally posted by Vladriel

You people need to get your facts straight and do your fucking research before spreading outlandish ridiculous rumors. .. Arenanet isn't offering a damn  cash shop in gw 2. It is a microtranaction in game using gems that you can buy with real money or buy with ingame gold or even trade with friends..  And the stuff they will be selling will not be anything that give players advantages over other players.. for example.. you will not be buying this outlandish overpowered sword that will kill with one hit... The things you will get to purchase will be stuff like more bank space, more character slots.. cosmetic stuff for your avatar, more emotes or more dances..  The stuff they offered in gw1 will be basically the stuff you can buy in game in gw2.  They have info about it on the guild wars 2 site.  http://www.guildwars2.com. So go read instead of spreading useless crap. 

For somebody who claims to be knowledgeable you are several weeks out of date.  News flash, they will be selling in game advantages now and these items are now very common knowledge.  The only debate now is how one defines pay2win.  Do you define it:

1) Very narrowly so that the only thing that makes it pay2win is a cash shop exclusive "uber sword of pwnage"

2) More loosely so that paying money to avoid grind is also pay2win (note:  this is how many of the Korean F2P MMOs are)

Personally, I think paying money to avoid grind is considered pay2win.  That would be consistent with how we have viewed the many F2P MMO's out there now that work this way.  Apparently, GW2 fans now think it is only pay2win if there is an "uber sword of pwnage."  If that is the case then there are very very few pay2win MMOs out there as very few have cash shop exclusive "uber swords of pwnage."

GW2 fans have now reinterpreted the Korean F2P MMOs, once universally considere pay2win, into PVP esports overnight.

It's not a grindy game to begin with. You don't level up to the cap so you can go do something completely different at the cap than you did while getting there. You play the game to have fun, for the sake of fun. The cool thing is that while there is no pressure to level, you also aren't punished if you level fast. The entire game's content is still available, viable and rewarding for you even once you have reached the cap.

In Competative PvP, everyone is level 80 with full access to all skills and traits, etc... and max stat, free gear. Cash shop has no bearing there.

In World vs. World, everyone is scaled to level 80, but with their earned skills and gear. There is some advantage to level there, but when you realize how small of an advantage the cash shops buffs provide in leveling speed, the gap between two players who do all the same content, one with buffs the entire time, (at considerable cost), one with out, is miniscule on the power scale.

The PvE world is cooperative, not competative. Someone paying over $100 for continuous kill XP buffs to get to level 80 in 105 hours seems very silly when the same person could have reach the cap in 115 hours, or less, with out the buffs. Even if Mr. Moneybags gets to the cap less than half a day sooner than someone else following the same leveling strategy, who the hell cares?

The cash shop is Pay to Win because some idiot might have an edge in the first week power leveling race to be the first level 80 on the server? Really?

BTW, exactly what does a subscription based MMO give you for that fee that GW2 doesn't include just in the box price? Nothing.

Originally posted by Fozzik

Two months ago, I was singing the tune right along with all the other fans... monthly subs are no longer needed, they aren't giving you anything for that money, etc. etc.

What a difference two months makes. Now that we have a clearer picture of what it seems to require in terms of design compromises and changes, now that we see the complex weaseling and semantics required and the complete disparity in the rules for players, I've changed my tune.

Give me back the sub fee, please.

Exactly.

Thing is, you're looking at the big picture, from a very high-level point-of-view, and with a very critical eye. Most people don't do that. They spend all their time arguing over the individual details of "this" or "that" issue, without ever realizing that each of those individual issues are all part of the F2P/Cash Shop setup as a whole.

Over the course of innumerable debates and discussions I've read on the topic, I find that many people's attention to the issue never goes beyond "what are they selling in the cash shop" and "is it something that's important to me or not". If it doesn't impact them personally, then it's no big deal and it's perfectly okay and everyone else should be okay with it, too. They'll defend it to others on that basis alone, which is precisely what the developers want them to do.

Problem is, the whole Cash Shop/F2P thing is far bigger and far more complex than that. Your summary of it is spot on in that way, Fozzik.

The F2P/Cash Shop thing is a huge, complex, multi-layered and very interwoven system that that extends from within the game's design code, to the gameplay, to the cash shop and even outside the game itself to the PR and marketing.

The part that's most offensive to me is how human psychology and behavior are exploited to the developers' benefit. If only more people realized how they're being played. There'd be a lot of pissed off people, I wager.

Truth is, it's not difficult to see through it all. I'm not a genius by any stretch, nor do I think I'm anything special for seeing through the BS that is the F2P/Cash Shop deal. I just choose not to take what I read or hear or see at face value, especially when it's coming from the mouth of a company PR rep. All it takes is the willingness to take nothing at face value, don't accept anything as fact simply because a company mouthpiece says so, and look at things more critically. Hell, I recommend that in many areas of life in general, to one degree or another.

---

Originally posted by Creslin321

Here's something to think about...
I would be just as annoyed if a SINGLE PLAYER GAME implemented a cash shop like GW2.  Clearly, my distaste for it has nothing to do with the "e-peen" factor.  Because in a single player game...there aren't any other players.
I just don't like my hobby being corrupted by profiteering.  In the old days of 5 years ago, it used to be that you could buy a game in a store, and that was it.  You were done your spending, you owned the game.  The game was designed only to be desireable to purchase and that's it.
Nowadays though, your spending STARTS when you buy the game.  The game will be packed full of advertisements and incentives to get you into that cash shop and spending.  MMORPGs are perfect for this because other players can act as advertisements.  For example...
"Hey dude, where did you get that cool cloak!"
"Cash shop bro, only $2.00!"
I don't want this, and I don't know why it's so hard for people to understand why I don't want this.  I want to play an IMMERSIVE game.  I don't want to play a game with product placement and lockboxes that can only be open with keys from the cash shop.

---

This was never true with MMO's though. I started with FFXI and every triple A MMO since has charged a sub at some point.

I think the biggest dishonesty ANet has perpetrated is that the "subscription model" was unnecessary. Here's Colin in a 2011 Gamasutra article :

---

... "There's an incorrect belief out there that it's more expensive server-wise to run a giant open world game than it is to run an instanced game such as Guild Wars...The server bandwidth now is getting reasonably inexpensive enough that you don't need to charge a fee for online games," he explained. "We made plenty of profit off Guild Wars 1, and that's what we're going to do with Guild Wars 2."

---

While that may be technically true, many players took that to mean that a game could be funded through expansions and cosmetic items alone. Based on the breadth of the new shop, it is clear they intended more income from it. So while ANet made their competitors out to be greedy robber barons, they silently knew their model would bring in an equivalent income stream.

That said, I still prefer this model. I get the feeling I will be able to play my first character from 1-80 with little to no money out of pocket. That's quite a deal. Subsequent characters, I can choose whether to take advantage of the conveniences or not, and I won't ever have to worry I'm not getting my money's worth.

Originally posted by TangentPoint

Originally posted by Fozzik

Two months ago, I was singing the tune right along with all the other fans... monthly subs are no longer needed, they aren't giving you anything for that money, etc. etc.

What a difference two months makes. Now that we have a clearer picture of what it seems to require in terms of design compromises and changes, now that we see the complex weaseling and semantics required and the complete disparity in the rules for players, I've changed my tune.

Give me back the sub fee, please.

Exactly.

Thing is, you're looking at the big picture, from a very high-level point-of-view, and with a very critical eye. Most people don't do that. They spend all their time arguing over the individual details of "this" or "that" issue, without ever realizing that each of those individual issues are all part of the F2P/Cash Shop setup as a whole.

Over the course of innumerable debates and discussions I've read on the topic, I find that many people's attention to the issue never goes beyond "what are they selling in the cash shop" and "is it something that's important to me or not". If it doesn't impact them personally, then it's no big deal and it's perfectly okay and everyone else should be okay with it, too. They'll defend it to others on that basis alone, which is precisely what the developers want them to do.

Problem is, the whole Cash Shop/F2P thing is far bigger and far more complex than that. Your summary of it is spot on in that way, Fozzik.

The F2P/Cash Shop thing is a huge, complex, multi-layered and very interwoven system that that extends from within the game's design code, to the gameplay, to the cash shop and even outside the game itself to the PR and marketing.

The part that's most offensive to me is how human psychology and behavior are exploited to the developers' benefit. If only more people realized how they're being played. There'd be a lot of pissed off people, I wager.

Truth is, it's not difficult to see through it all. I'm not a genius by any stretch, nor do I think I'm anything special for seeing through the BS that is the F2P/Cash Shop deal. I just choose not to take what I read or hear or see at face value, especially when it's coming from the mouth of a company PR rep. All it takes is the willingness to take nothing at face value, don't accept anything as fact simply because a company mouthpiece says so, and look at things more critically. Hell, I recommend that in many areas of life in general, to one degree or another.

 

Glad to see others that feel like I do, because ANET is just as greedy as Blizz case closed, except Blizz for the meoment at least has delivered on whereas ANET/NCSoft has not!!!!!!!

There is no difference between Anet/NCSoft then EA/BIOWARE

Originally posted by Size-Twelve

 

---

Originally posted by gainesvilleg
For somebody who claims to be knowledgeable you are several weeks out of date.  News flash, they will be selling in game advantages now and these items are now very common knowledge.  The only debate now is how one defines pay2win.  Do you define it:
1) Very narrowly so that the only thing that makes it pay2win is a cash shop exclusive "uber sword of pwnage"
2) More loosely so that paying money to avoid grind is also pay2win (note:  this is how many of the Korean F2P MMOs are)
Personally, I think paying money to avoid grind is considered pay2win.  That would be consistent with how we have viewed the many F2P MMO's out there now that work this way.  Apparently, GW2 fans now think it is only pay2win if there is an "uber sword of pwnage."  If that is the case then there are very very few pay2win MMOs out there as very few have cash shop exclusive "uber swords of pwnage."
GW2 fans have now reinterpreted the Korean F2P MMOs, once universally considere pay2win, into PVP esports overnight.

---

 

Did you really compare the grind in GW2 with a Korean F2P?. GW2 is not built anything like a Korean grinder, so what grind are we talking about exactly? "The grind" as I've understood it in GW2 is what is simply known as playing the game.

I'm not 100% in love with the shop either, but to me it's better than the alternative. I just found that particular line of argument pretty unfair. GW2 is nothing like a Korean F2P.

The things is in most of these f2p grinders the problem most people have is added inconvenience put into the game only to sell something from the cash shop.

Look at the repair system they just recently announced which was a change from the previous death is its own penalty philosophy. They announce this system and sing us a song and dance about attrition mechanics and lack of having them, which all sounds good. To post some qoutes from the blog concerning all this.."it provides a warning that the content may be to difficult'..."it provides excitement by upping the ante". I actually agree with this blog as well. However this blog should have had an asterix along with the message. "All of this inconvenience can be by passed by purchasing our handy dandy repair kit"

There not kidding me, they added this repair system to sell repair kits. The repair kits themselves are not the problem to me though its that they were willing to add an inconvenience to sell a convenience item thats the problem. Because thats what the "f2p Korean Grinders" do.

If thats where this design philosophy starts and stops, I can live with it, however if as time goes by and we see more of these inconveniences that were added in. Like say without a 'perfect salvage kit' you can destroy your upgrades instead of removing them. Then thats design philosophy I don't agree with and will take my money elsewhere.

Originally posted by evicton

Like say without a 'perfect salvage kit' you can destroy your upgrades instead of removing them. Then thats design philosophy I don't agree with and will take my money elsewhere.

 

This is how it is in GW and probably will be in gw2 too. You dont remove upgrade you replace it if you dont have perfecr salvage kit. Or you could lose it.

But you forget tha this items will be craftable or/and sell with karma and as drops too.

I would pay a sub for GW2 but the cash shop doesn't bother me one bit, I find it extremly funny that people are so up in arms about it.

Originally posted by mazut

Originally posted by evicton

Like say without a 'perfect salvage kit' you can destroy your upgrades instead of removing them. Then thats design philosophy I don't agree with and will take my money elsewhere.

 

This is how it is in GE and probably will be in gw2 too. You dont remove upgrade you replace it if you dont have perfecr salvage kit. Or you could lose it.

But you forget tha this items will be craftable or/and sell with karma and as drops too.

Naw I didn't forget it, but my point is would they have this inconvenience in the game if they didn't also have a cash shop item for this inconvenience, there may be multiple ways to deal with the inconvenience, but its primary reason for being in the game is for the cash shop item.

hmmm...I wonder how many gamers here have spoken out against the whole cash shop p2w often found in many f2p games are trying to make up excuses as to why this type of cash shop is different from others found in many f2p games????

Guild Wars 2

Fantasy

ArenaNet

2012

free

8.74

 could some mod change that free status to item mall,thanks in advance.

Don't count on it.  GW1 still says free and it has an item mall, and a bunch of others are still inaccurate.

Originally posted by TangentPoint

Originally posted by Fozzik

Two months ago, I was singing the tune right along with all the other fans... monthly subs are no longer needed, they aren't giving you anything for that money, etc. etc.

What a difference two months makes. Now that we have a clearer picture of what it seems to require in terms of design compromises and changes, now that we see the complex weaseling and semantics required and the complete disparity in the rules for players, I've changed my tune.

Give me back the sub fee, please.

Exactly.

Thing is, you're looking at the big picture, from a very high-level point-of-view, and with a very critical eye. Most people don't do that. They spend all their time arguing over the individual details of "this" or "that" issue, without ever realizing that each of those individual issues are all part of the F2P/Cash Shop setup as a whole.

Over the course of innumerable debates and discussions I've read on the topic, I find that many people's attention to the issue never goes beyond "what are they selling in the cash shop" and "is it something that's important to me or not". If it doesn't impact them personally, then it's no big deal and it's perfectly okay and everyone else should be okay with it, too. They'll defend it to others on that basis alone, which is precisely what the developers want them to do.

Problem is, the whole Cash Shop/F2P thing is far bigger and far more complex than that. Your summary of it is spot on in that way, Fozzik.

The F2P/Cash Shop thing is a huge, complex, multi-layered and very interwoven system that that extends from within the game's design code, to the gameplay, to the cash shop and even outside the game itself to the PR and marketing.

The part that's most offensive to me is how human psychology and behavior are exploited to the developers' benefit. If only more people realized how they're being played. There'd be a lot of pissed off people, I wager.

Truth is, it's not difficult to see through it all. I'm not a genius by any stretch, nor do I think I'm anything special for seeing through the BS that is the F2P/Cash Shop deal. I just choose not to take what I read or hear or see at face value, especially when it's coming from the mouth of a company PR rep. All it takes is the willingness to take nothing at face value, don't accept anything as fact simply because a company mouthpiece says so, and look at things more critically. Hell, I recommend that in many areas of life in general, to one degree or another.

 

I still have a small hope that there exists others with clean thinking caps on. Bravo to you both for being daring enough to say it and standing up for what is right. I feel like every thread on this subject including those on the GW2guru site, are full of  unconscionable lemings. There is no other way to spin this and you have laid it out plain as day. The sad thing is that the moral majority will never wake up enough to see it until its too late.

Originally posted by moosecatlol

Originally posted by Unlight

Originally posted by Madimorga

Originally posted by Pangentor
Must suck to have so little self-control that paying $150 or more per year is better than optional services and goods.

It sucks when someone with no self control spends $150 a month and then has an advantage over someone who doesn't in terms of leveling speed, PvE, and especially PvP.

 

Now someone is going to say, Guild Wars 2 is different, no cash shop item, no leveling speed, no gear, no gold will give someone else and advantage.  To which I say, we'll see, but I'm not buying it.  I and several others have already pointed out ways that people with money to burn could have an advantage over other players. 

Levelling speed is an issue is it?  What benefit will you gain by reaching 80, a week before me?  You'll be more powerful than me in structured PvP?  No, we're exactly the same, regardless of our nominal level.  You're stronger than me in WvW?  Perhaps, but by a narrow margin.  And if we are on the same server, great.  It makes our server stronger ... sort of.  If we're on opposite servers, so what.  You're just another invader to me.  You may have a handful of extra skills to use, but so will so many others.  You'll be just another face among many to me.  Maybe it matters in PvE.  Hmm.  No, not really.  It's all cooperative so there's no negative for me.  We can only work together.  Perhaps it has something to do with you being able to collect higher level mats than I can because you can operate in higher level zones.  True, I'll give you that.  Unless of course I just have someone SK me up for the week it would take to level myself there anyway.  I find it hard to be concerned about that.  Or maybe you want to be able to get a world first.  OK, you win.  You're also welcome to it, if they even exist in this game.  However, that will be an incentive with a very short life span.

Levelling faster only means that you miss content on your way up, content that you can go back to do later.  I'll just be doing it earlier before you.  Oh hey, win for me!

XP boosts = much ado about nothing.  If you want them -- if anybody wants them -- please, go for it.  The net result is you've spent real money on something that doesn't adversely affect me in any way, but benefits me because that's more money that can be used for development.

Think about the game and it's mechanics.  Speeding to 80 gains you next to nothing.  But I'll happily encourage others to do it to serve my own self-interest.

Well actually the first 5 to 80 can farm AL for gear and sell that gear first, setting the price for all other to come after them. So yes you can damn well bet that all serious guilds will be funding their race to 80.

What does selling the gear get them? Why do they need that? Answer those questions and you'll understand what that whole argument is silly. If they already have their endgame gear what do they need all the money for.? Passed the normal sinks like repairing/teleporting there isn't a reason to amass a large fortune. Siege engines/weapons perhaps? But you are gated by supply anyway and it didn't appear that they were that expensive anyway.

If they want to race to 80, let them. They won't have any major economic advantage regardless of the amount of money they amass. Heck, they might even be at a disadvantage since they won't have as much money as someone who had to run more events to level.

Funny how people were in exstasy about gW2 design choices and after leaked IS they suddenly see all those design choices as flawed. B/c xp scroll in item shop suddently made the game grindy etc. Impressed at the lack of logic.

Originally posted by QSatu

Funny how people were in exstasy about gW2 design choices and after leaked IS they suddenly see all those design choices as flawed. B/c xp scroll in item shop suddently made the game grindy etc. Impressed at the lack of logic.

People have  to complain about something while we wait to actually play. Keeps us from getting bored ya know. 

Originally posted by TangentPoint

Originally posted by Fozzik

Two months ago, I was singing the tune right along with all the other fans... monthly subs are no longer needed, they aren't giving you anything for that money, etc. etc.

What a difference two months makes. Now that we have a clearer picture of what it seems to require in terms of design compromises and changes, now that we see the complex weaseling and semantics required and the complete disparity in the rules for players, I've changed my tune.

Give me back the sub fee, please.

Problem is, the whole Cash Shop/F2P thing is far bigger and far more complex than that. Your summary of it is spot on in that way, Fozzik.

The F2P/Cash Shop thing is a huge, complex, multi-layered and very interwoven system that that extends from within the game's design code, to the gameplay, to the cash shop and even outside the game itself to the PR and marketing.

The part that's most offensive to me is how human psychology and behavior are exploited to the developers' benefit. If only more people realized how they're being played. There'd be a lot of pissed off people, I wager.

 

 

But spreading BS that server maintenance cost so much they have to milk 15$ a month from each player is normal to you? Thing again mr. Critical to everything

The argument that P2P is better is just the biggest piece of BS I've ever seen..and it just shows how people are easily manipulated. Maybe there is one or two games that delivers constant content updated with no additional costs apart from 15$/month, but still the company would need to deliver an expansion like update every three month to justify the insane costs. And show me ONE, ONE P2P game that does that...

What we actually see are lousy updates with maximally two hours worth of content and expansion packs with ADDITIONAL content once per year (which is usually filled with much more powerful items) for ADDITIONAL full price.. Now look at the bigger picture mr. I understand the universe: Isn't THIS exactly the P2W CASH shop you're so against??Also an insanely expensive cash shop with monthly fees as a bonus??  Because I dont see any way you'll be able to play the expansion content without spending a cent... So next time you defend that BS P2P method.. Look at the bigger picture for real and gimme a break...

I'm an extremely casual gamer. I love MMOs, but I  just don't have the time to play. For me, I would play a good game with a fair cash shop. I played subbed on and off to a few games back in the day and hated it if I couldn't log on to play at all during my busier months.

I like cash shops since I can play when I want, load cash in when I have it and so forth.

Originally posted by Exilor

Originally posted by Dream_Chaser

Originally posted by mazut

I suggest Anet to put the option for voluntary Subscription. If people want to pay, why not :D Let them pay and be happy and at peace. Why takeing their security? It starting to feel like they are robed ;/

The moment you add a subscription, you have to add methods to your game to keep people playing. It means that you need the 'carrot' (which GW2 doesn't need and happily ignores right now) in order to entice people into spending months and months of their life grinding.

No subscription equals no carrot, no padding, no enforced grinding.

And the moment you add "convenience" items, you have to put inconveniences to keep people buying them. Like that new "attrition mechanic" that can be waived away with cash, the repairing of equipment.

 Well put! When you hear "convenience items", you can think of the inconvenience of not using them. Cash Shops will always be a dangerous slope.

Originally posted by gainesvilleg

2) More loosely so that paying money to avoid grind is also pay2win (note:  this is how many of the Korean F2P MMOs are)

Personally, I think paying money to avoid grind is considered pay2win.  That would be consistent with how we have viewed the many F2P MMO's out there now that work this way.  Apparently, GW2 fans now think it is only pay2win if there is an "uber sword of pwnage."  If that is the case then there are very very few pay2win MMOs out there as very few have cash shop exclusive "uber swords of pwnage."

GW2 fans have now reinterpreted the Korean F2P MMOs, once universally considere pay2win, into PVP esports overnight.

GW2 is not a Korean grinder though. One of the cornerstones of the 'paradigm shift' is playing is it's own reward. There is no 'vertical' gear progression, and while there are levels Anet play fast and loose with them (scaling characters and content up and down) and could easily have dispensed with them altogether (I imagine they thought that would be a step too far into unfamiliar territory). It is not a progression orientated game in the traditional sense (shhh or people will be bitching about that, the real shocker) there is 'progression' but just playing casually for a month (made up number but people are making up all sorts of shit about the cash shop) and you will get to max level and the 'best' gear. 

The other thing about the F2P grinders is not that they offer 'concienience items' but they offer 'remove inconvienience items', subtle difference. Again the inconvience usually involves some sort of built in crappy mechanic. So far Anet have amply demonstrated that everything about there core gameplay is designed to be convienient from the ground up without buying some 'token' from the CS.

game is not worthy of montly fees Vs game is not worthy of cash shop ?