great post and what not.

I do see 1 flaw and the majority of ppl who think it isnt true should reconsider pleaying GAMES in general.

When u said that being better then the other(for whtever reason- gear/skill/investment) is what ppl are used to then ur forgeting what GAMING is made for...

I dont play games to socialize with ppl who are sitting god knows where behind another pc, i dont play to just play, i play it for competition... THATS WHAT A GAME IS get used to it just sayin...

Tell me 1 game, ANY game where there isnt a winner and a loser. If u do that i will agree witht his post and support it. but u cant. so GG but gaming is for 1 player to show he is better then the other in whatever way it is.

While I am very interested in GW2,  I think it is still too early to call it a shift in the genre.  Anet deserves some credit for at least trying to break the mold in my opinion, but it remains to be seen whether everything comes together and works. I have no doubt GW2 will enjoy some sucess, but I am not yet certain that sucess will elicit the shift that the OP is calling. 

I definitely do not want to see GW2 hyped into the savior of MMOs.  In truth, I think that many of the people hyped for this game read what GW2 does on paper without fully understanding what it will be like in game. I think it will appeal to a certain audience instantly, while others not so much.  Furthermore, in the last few years I have seen games like AoC, TOR, and War all declared shifts in MMOs by posters.

While GW2 may change the expectations of some gamers, I do not think we can call it a true shift, yet.  To use an example, some stated that the story elements and designs of TOR would also change gamer's perceptions about MMOs and what to expect.  Not to egg on TOR fans, but I do not think that has happened neccesarily. 

Originally posted by bloodbone

*snipage*

Your comments made me long in and post.  I think your way off the mark in terms of "What People Want".  You are describing a FPS for a XBOX 360.  Log on mindlessly shoot afew people then log out, no growth, no change and no thinking.  People want something for their investment.  People like me with proffesional jobs and little time dont mind falling behind the 8 ball because we have something to work towards.  In short I believe people want 6000 hours to count in an MMO; just like they would in any pursuit.  What people really want is a new and better carrot n a stick, like battles for territory control, building things in a persistent world (not like GW2 instanced junk).  People want some real risk with some real reward.  GW2 is the softcore version of WoW (Im about to get flamed) but it is what it is. 

Just my opinion thou. 

That's pretty much my own sentiment. Even though I imagine GW2 could still be a great game for more risk averse and/or casual gamers. And if they have plenty of compelling gameplay alternatives and when WvWvW turns out to be great, they might entertain many people for a long time, which is fine.

Personally I'm really, really tired with games forcing you to focus on completely ready made content in the correct, designated areas, banning out all unintended player behavior and especially tired with non-consequential deaths in pvp.

Of all online games I've played I found that the severity of dying and the advantage of killing others is directly proportional to the excitement I have in pvp. (EVE still reigns supreme in my excitement chart).

After the Swtor debacle I simply lost all hope in games without at least reasonably tough consequences to dying, (not necesarily full loot though), and with mainly preconstructed rides in predetermined areas.

Originally posted by robgyorgy

great post and what not.

I do see 1 flaw and the majority of ppl who think it isnt true should reconsider pleaying GAMES in general.

When u said that being better then the other(for whtever reason- gear/skill/investment) is what ppl are used to then ur forgeting what GAMING is made for...

I dont play games to socialize with ppl who are sitting god knows where behind another pc, i dont play to just play, i play it for competition... THATS WHAT A GAME IS get used to it just sayin...

Tell me 1 game, ANY game where there isnt a winner and a loser. If u do that i will agree witht his post and support it. but u cant. so GG but gaming is for 1 player to show he is better then the other in whatever way it is.

Wait what?

But it isn't about fun,right, most esports don't do the whole gear grind thing, they do give upgrades and what not but if you game to be better mainly in PVP wouldn't you want to say my skills are great rather than I grinded this gear that you can't get because you don't have enough time to get it so I'm better than you because it is protecting me from the actual ass whoopin I would most likely get if I was equal to you.

Upgrades can help precision, look cosmectically, and stuff that doesn't save you from an ass whooping, you should just learn to get better by your own skill and that's how you can be better than someone.

Gaming is about having fun, fun competing, and fun playing. People shouldn't have to grind for that shit, it defeats the purpose of gaming and fun.

Now grind in terms of Halo Reach and etc is fine, and games that have extra damage usually have decrease in other areas of the weapon or gear like most games that are made for gaming/playing

Because their actual game functions in a way where that makes sense.

It's why due to the collision base fighting where the weapon/bullet actually has to hit someone that simple thing right there promotes more skill it self.

Gamers who love gaming should have skill an be able to show it, but skill in grinding...da hell? 

Originally posted by DarkPony

Originally posted by bloodbone

*snipage*

Your comments made me long in and post.  I think your way off the mark in terms of "What People Want".  You are describing a FPS for a XBOX 360.  Log on mindlessly shoot afew people then log out, no growth, no change and no thinking.  People want something for their investment.  People like me with proffesional jobs and little time dont mind falling behind the 8 ball because we have something to work towards.  In short I believe people want 6000 hours to count in an MMO; just like they would in any pursuit.  What people really want is a new and better carrot n a stick, like battles for territory control, building things in a persistent world (not like GW2 instanced junk).  People want some real risk with some real reward.  GW2 is the softcore version of WoW (Im about to get flamed) but it is what it is. 

Just my opinion thou. 

That's pretty much my own sentiment. Even though I imagine GW2 could still be a great game for more risk averse and/or casual gamers. And if they have plenty of compelling gameplay alternatives and when WvWvW turns out to be great, they might entertain many people for a long time, which is fine.

Personally I'm really, really tired with games forcing you to focus on completely ready made content in the correct, designated areas, banning out all unintended player behavior and especially tired with non-consequential deaths in pvp.

Of all online games I've played I found that the severity of dying and the advantage of killing others is directly proportional to the excitement I have in pvp. (EVE still reigns supreme in my excitement chart).

After the Swtor debacle I simply lost all hope in games without at least reasonably tough consequences to dying, (not necesarily full loot though), and with mainly preconstructed rides in predetermined areas.

Games that represent persistant loss/gain are few and far between. Far more games are played for fun, rather than perceived gain. In fact, sand box MMOs have been among the least successful and almost impossible to design, due to the unrealistic demands and expectations of most players that populate the sand box game niche. (I won't debate this here, but suffice it to say that the reason a truly great sand box MMO is so hard to design is that the a large protion of the existing niche would never embrace the design decisions needed to make such a game work).

A cooperative game is not a casual game by default. GW2 game design is interesting in that it can meaningfully provide appeal to a very broad range of players with out trampling on anyone. There will be extremely challenging content in GW2, for those who want it. That there are more casual ways of having fun and reaching a maxed out character are irrelavent.

Great post Dream Chaser.

It's no surprise that some gamers are dead set about how a mmo is suppose to be structured.  If you take away their grinding, raids, and gear progression (the trinity of end game), they'll be left scared and confused.  What else is there to do they'll cry?

That's where GW2 hopes to answer: instead of the same-old, same-old,  they want you to have fun instead.  How about going through content not for grinding but to experience them?  How about having a good time playing with people again?  Get together with random strangers and play through events or dungeons without loot or class role worries.  Return to missed content at maxed level and still enjoy it without being overpowered.

At the end of the day, I want to experience some content and teamplay.  I can accept reasonable time investments for rewards.  However, I don't accept the vicious cycle of : kill a thousand rats (in new skin), hope for lottery chance for one piece of gear->repeat for full set, then and only then do you get access to VERY limited content->repeat.

 *Cough*  Ah, did I mention that you better have that particular class in group with you or it's a no go for the content... and hope he has proper gear too?  Just shoot me in the head already, where the hell is the fun in that?  They try to justify it by calling it hardcore.  Oh it's hardcore alright, for masochists. 

Best of all, you'll play when you want to, not because you feel pressured by a subscription.  Sure there's a cash shop (we'll see how that turns out), but it's optional.

I do hope GW2 turns out great and give some life back into the mmo's.  It might not be for everyone, so if you're having a blast with wow and clones, that's great.  However, myself and many others have been waiting for a new mmo with a change.  Now that change is coming soon.  I might be wrong, but Arenanet seems to be the best bet in town at the moment.

I think on top of this the industry is also taking a second look at themselves. More and more articles pop up about new content for games which I feel have been either directly or indirectly influenced by the DE system. The 5-6 man instanced content in WoW that doesn't require the trinity, new champions online content with an event system and Tera is also doing something along these lines as well.

Originally posted by Digitalsalad

Great post Dream Chaser.

It's no surprise that some gamers are dead set about how a mmo is suppose to be structured.  If you take away their grinding, raids, and gear progression (the trinity of end game), they'll be left scared and confused.  What else is there to do they'll cry?

That's where GW2 hopes to answer: instead of the same-old, same-old,  they want you to have fun instead.  How about going through content not for grinding but to experience them?  How about having a good time playing with people again?  Get together with random strangers and play through events or dungeons without loot or class role worries.  Return to missed content at maxed level and still enjoy it without being overpowered.

One of the best video games I remember playing was FF7 when I got my PS1. I had so much fun I played it again. ONCE! No more!

So, it's just like you said "Instead of the Same-Old Same-Old". GW2 will become that faster than any other MMO if there is no reason to do the dungeon for any reason other than for doing it.

At the end of the day, I want to experience some content and teamplay.  I can accept reasonable time investments for rewards.  However, I don't accept the vicious cycle of : kill a thousand rats (in new skin), hope for lottery chance for one piece of gear->repeat for full set, then and only then do you get access to VERY limited content->repeat.

Everything in an MMO becomes a viscious cycle. Even GW2

 *Cough*  Ah, did I mention that you better have that particular class in group with you or it's a no go for the content... and hope he has proper gear too?  Just shoot me in the head already, where the hell is the fun in that?  They try to justify it by calling it hardcore.  Oh it's hardcore alright, for masochists.

If it's all about skill and only about skill, then this is just some MMO/Twich hybrid Not a true MMORPG.

Best of all, you'll play when you want to, not because you feel pressured by a subscription.  Sure there's a cash shop (we'll see how that turns out), but it's optional.uly going to cost to play if you want to experience all of it.

It remains to be seen just how much this game is truly going to cost in order to experience all it has to offer.

I do hope GW2 turns out great and give some life back into the mmo's.  It might not be for everyone, so if you're having a blast with wow and clones, that's great.  However, myself and many others have been waiting for a new mmo with a change.  Now that change is coming soon.  I might be wrong, but Arenanet seems to be the best bet in town at the moment

I actually hope you are correct. I'm not trying to rip it apart as much as I am trying t o"keep it real" and at least making an attempt to see this from multiple perspectives.

 At least this way, I'm not devistatesd if I am right...and if I am wrong...then I still win.

---

Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh
One of the best video games I remember playing was FF7 when I got my PS1. I had so much fun I played it again. ONCE! No more!
So, it's just like you said "Instead of the Same-Old Same-Old". GW2 will become that faster than any other MMO if there is no reason to do the dungeon for any reason other than for doing it.

---

It should still be fun after thousands of plays, like Bejeweled on my iPod.

I'm not saying running a GW2 dungeon thousands of times will be fun. But if it's not fun more than once or twice, then it's not genuinely fun gameplay at all: it's either satisfying to see the unique art assets in that dungeon; or it's satisfying for Achiever-mindset related reasons. Not satisfyingly fun gameplay.

Originally posted by Dream_Chaser

 

Imagine that.

 

The problem is is that not everyone is able to make these ridiculous time investments. You have people with children, a family, a job, social obligations, and so on. The sort of people who're considered 'casuals.' Now, the usual MMORPG talks about these people in derogatory ways, often considering them not 'leet' or not 'hardcore' enough. Because having a job and a child isn't 'hardcore.' So they sneer at such people and demand that the game be made more for them, creating more time investments.

 

But where did this begin?

 

It all started off with subscriptions. In order to justify a subscription, you have to pad out content. This means that instead of a ten minute mission in Mass Effect 3, you're doing a five hour questing slog. Really, it shouldn't be that long, but it is. So you get to the quest vendor and they offer you these 'carrots,' these rewards. The idea here is that more weak-willed people get hooked on the idea of somehow, somehow being better than other people. In some small way... better.

 

It takes advantage of them.

 

So via conditioning and peer pressure, the average MMORPG gamer then continues to spend their life playing the game, without even realising the harm it might be doing to them. What they get out of this is the feeling of controlling the economy, of being able to separate themselves into haves and have-nots, in order to sneer down at those who don't have the same level of access to the game that they do. That's what it's all about. That shiny mount, that exclusive raid, that high-end armour? It's all to be better than someone else. One-upmanship, plain and simple. It's not a difficult concept.

 

However, things are changing now. And that has those people terrified, because they can't handle change. What this means is that there's no grind, there's no gruelling slog. This in turn means that there's no carrot. That means that they have no way to be better than other people. This is something I've discussed before - Guild Wars 2 enforces player equality. It's an egalitarian game. Everyone gets the same chance at the game, through different methods of content.

 

At the power plateau, it won't matter if you've put eight hours into the game or eight thousand, you're all equal.

 

This is a terrifying concept to those who've ruled with time investments. Because for the longest time MMORPGs have been whispering delicately into their ears that their way is the only way. Subscribe to our game, we'll let you be better than other people. But the market is changing. More and more developers are realising that these people who want time investments to rule the economy are a vast minority (vocal, but still a vast minority).

 

There are casual players out there just waiting for the MMORPGs that are designed for them to play. And those are on the way. One of the first is Guild Wars 2.

 

And like I said, it's working.

 

What Guild Wars 2 is doing is shaking things up, it's altering perceptions. It's saying that what was set in stone was an illusion, and that things can be completely different. Those who helped set those rules in stone are going to rail against that. Of course they are. No more exclusive content for them. Yes, that's going to suck for them. Because the reason they play an MMORPG, even in PvE, is just to be better than someone.

 

But there are games out there for them. Games which encourage competitive PvE, games which encourage people being arseholes to each other, and games which encourage player inequality. And they'll always have those games. But they're worried that one day... they're going to run out of games and they'll have to play our games, the games of casual players. And yeah, that scares them.

 

I mean, look at WoW.

 

WoW, from the ground up, conditions you to want to be better than someone. It puts in various ways to force you to compete. You can easily accidentally flag yourself as PvP, resource nodes are instanced globally rather than per player, which makes people fight over them, and the whole thing is one massive sociopathic circlejerk. It's just people being horribly indecent to each other. But again, the old MMORPG player, the time investor, they're comfortable with that.

 

In Guild Wars 2 they'll actually have to socialise with people, they'll have to be nice, they won't be in complete control, they'll be equal. This turns everything they know on its head. And that's why we've had so many threads about this. It's old MMORPG players damn near having a brain aneurysm at all of the rules they thought they knew being turned upon their heads.

 

No longer lords and ladies. Just peons. Like the rest of us.

 

They have to come back down to the real world.

 

But what we're getting instead now is that they're seeing the other side of the equation. Just because there's equality, they're blowing it out of proportion and saying that money ivnestors will be on top. That's obviously not the case, but that's the fear that they have, because they're having these crazy slippery slope theories. You know? Oh no, we've lost our regal status, soon our slaves will be our masters, and we'll be the slaves!

 

That's not going to happen, but they're seeing things from the side of the have-nots and the results?

 

The results are frankly hilarious.

 

If I were a vindictive person, I'd pester ArenaNet to actually include an $80 monocle in the game, just so that I could buy it, wear it, and flaunt it at the time investors. But I'm not a vindictive person. Like I've said before, my approach to the game will be to find the most sensible, utilitarian armour I can and stick with that. I don't really give a shit about being the prettiest pony on the block.

 

But if you understand the paradigm shift, here, if you understand how the patterns are changing, then you understand why every one of these new threads exists. It's forcing people to question all that was supposedly set in stone about GW2. And like I said, that says to me... GW2 works. I am pleased.

First concerns over using microtransactions to win the day are completely understandable. It's a game, outside sources should not dictate your ability to win or achieve in a game, it cheapens the very core of the game.

Second this isn't the first paradigm shift this industry has seen, there was another in 2004. That's where this current trend of segregated communities began, it didn't start with a subscription fee as you eluded to. Titles like UO had a completely different gaming atmosphere, a completely different focus, they were community driven. The core of the game used a phlisophy of bringing players together in making a cooperative experience. Much like GW2 is trying to do now.

Raiding and it's gated tiered entry are what lead to this separation between have's and have nots. As I tried to say in a post yesterday that was buried in all the hoopla. it read:

"What I don't like about raiding is the entire nature of it, gated content, itemized progression and of course the culture it breeds.

"Gated content is just bad design IMO, tiered entry based on gear based stats is the mother of all **** ups in this genre, it is a large part of why overall MMO design has become as shallow as it has. Materialistic reward and virtual world do not mix well.

Because.. Materialistic incentives act as an enabler to segregated communties, it becomes a case of the haves and have nots. Which destroys any sense of an overreaching community in it to support a healthy gaming atmosphere.

Might not be an argument against raiding in GW2, frankly I don't care, I'm just glad GW2 won't have it."

This IMO is where all of these current problems with gaming communities began, the raid mentality has always been one of despisement toward fellow players, who are not equipped as a raider should be. The mechanics themselves drive this mentality and have fostered it.

MMO's do not need to be made this way, there are plenty of other options that drive long-term retention without driving a wedge into the core of the playerbase. Some features promote the complete opposite actually, just look at games like SWG or UO.

You're right in that many who are used to being on top will decry changes that put them and everyone else on a leveled playing field. That should be expected, we all know change is hard to accept, especially if it means loss of dominance.

Your biggest mistake though is the idea that many of us oldschoolers didn't see this years ago (as if GW2 is the eye opener). It really isn't, this is old news to many including myself.

Originally posted by robgyorgy

great post and what not.

I do see 1 flaw and the majority of ppl who think it isnt true should reconsider pleaying GAMES in general.

When u said that being better then the other(for whtever reason- gear/skill/investment) is what ppl are used to then ur forgeting what GAMING is made for...

I dont play games to socialize with ppl who are sitting god knows where behind another pc, i dont play to just play, i play it for competition... THATS WHAT A GAME IS get used to it just sayin...

Tell me 1 game, ANY game where there isnt a winner and a loser. If u do that i will agree witht his post and support it. but u cant. so GG but gaming is for 1 player to show he is better then the other in whatever way it is.

The problem is that in most games you win because you are best and that includes GW.

In most MMOs you win because you put more time into grinding up the gear, be it PvE or PvP.

There will be winners and losers still, but here the losers can't spend loads of time to get gear that make them actual winners.

THATS WHAT A GAME IS.

Originally posted by Distopia

Your biggest mistake though is the idea that many of us old schoolers didn't see this years ago (as if GW2 is the eye opener). It really isn't, this is old news too many including myself.

Agreed, some of us have been playing GW since 2005 and it works exactly the same there, and many people were actually talking about this even earlier. It was in fact EQs grind that started the discussion even if that grind was somewhat different compared to wows grind.

Originally posted by Banquetto

 

---

Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh
One of the best video games I remember playing was FF7 when I got my PS1. I had so much fun I played it again. ONCE! No more!
So, it's just like you said "Instead of the Same-Old Same-Old". GW2 will become that faster than any other MMO if there is no reason to do the dungeon for any reason other than for doing it.

---

Fun gameplay shouldn't be fun twice, like your FF7 example.

 

It should still be fun after thousands of plays, like Bejeweled on my iPod.

I'm not saying running a GW2 dungeon thousands of times will be fun. But if it's not fun more than once or twice, then it's not genuinely fun gameplay at all: it's either satisfying to see the unique art assets in that dungeon; or it's satisfying for Achiever-mindset related reasons. Not satisfyingly fun gameplay.

And the reason your Bejeweld game is fun so many times over is because no 2 times ever the same.

Originally posted by Digitalsalad

Great post Dream Chaser.

It's no surprise that some gamers are dead set about how a mmo is suppose to be structured.  If you take away their grinding, raids, and gear progression (the trinity of end game), they'll be left scared and confused.  What else is there to do they'll cry?

That's where GW2 hopes to answer: instead of the same-old, same-old,  they want you to have fun instead.  How about going through content not for grinding but to experience them?  How about having a good time playing with people again?  Get together with random strangers and play through events or dungeons without loot or class role worries.  Return to missed content at maxed level and still enjoy it without being overpowered.

This does not make any sense. You can play any current mmorpg in the "fun mode" where you just complete everything in the easymode (dungeons, raids) without having to worry too much about your gear and so on. You dont have to do any of the HC content unless you so wish.

Also, you cant possibly think that everyone who plays other mmorpgs are not having fun? They play other mmorpgs because they are forced to? GW2 is voluntary fun, but other mmorpgs are obviously forced and not fun?

When you have done every dungeon in GW2, and seen every map and battleground, with nothing to gain other than "fun" anymore, what keeps the masses playing who wants to advance, gain rewards, become more powerful etc? They'll just keep repeating same old same old content while getting no rewards out of it while chanting "this is fun" ? It never occured to you that getting loot, power, improving your char and so on is considered fun?

It's starting to look like my biggest concern about this game is not having anything to do past max level unless you're a HC GW2 fan haging around just for the fun of it.

The OP seriously would suit a lot better some sandbox title, where endgame is less important where you can shape the world your self etc sandbox features, but GW2 is a themepark, it needs more than "just fun" to stay on radar, otherwise the game will experience a "mass exodus" after people have experienced "the fun" with nothing else to gain.

Originally posted by drakaena
I am now one of those casual players you speak of due to real life responsibilities.

But you are wrong in thinking there won't be elitism in gw2. It will just come in other forms besides gear stats. It will be displayed in character aesthetics and titles.

To require these will require a time sink. Practice makes perfect. To become one of the best at anything among a group of peers all trying to reach the same goals is going to involve devotion on behalf of the player. You're fooling yourself if you think otherwise.

Furthermore, what's wrong with competition in MMO's? Isn't that why most of us play them... to compete against real people online.

I do agree that MMO's have lost a good deal of the social aspect of online gaming. But I don't see gw2 as the game to bring this back. It's going to be very instanced. People will rush to max level and then stand around queuing. Likely only conversing with guildies. It's going to be an instances lobby game.

Hell, I already experienced a lot of elitism in GW1. In fact, by far, the most intense MMO players I've ever met in all my years of MMO playing, across all the MMOs I've played, were in GW1.

I was kicked out of a guild for saying "Hi everyone, what's up?" my second day in the guild. I was kicked from Vent moments later, the reason given "You're too chatty'. I'd logged on and said 4 words. I PM'd the guy who kicked me and said "All I said was hello and what's up?" His response was "we don't have time to be chatty. Time you're talking is time you should be working on the classes we instructed you to work on. Also you said you log on at around 6PM. It's almost 9 and you're only now logging on. You lost 3 hours of leveling time. We need more commitment than that in this guild. Come back and try again when you're more serious". 

I'm not kidding. This happened. 

Now, I already wasn't sure I'd be sticking around when, upon being recruited, I was promptly given my itinerary of what I was going to do, what classes I was going to level and at what rate and in what order in order to fulfill the guild's lofty requirements.  I just wasn't prepared to be kicked from a guild who clearly took itself and the game farrr too seriously, for simply being friendly/polite.

By my understanding, from friends who've played the game a lot more than I, they were not the only ones who were like that.

Now I don't know if GW2 will attract that same kind of player, but it's surely going to create a certain class of "elitism" if it does. It'll really be no different, in tone, than the elitism you see in PvE MMOs in end-game raiding guilds.

There are people whom , for whatever reason, invest far too much of themselves, and identify themselves far too much with their achievements in these games. They have to find something to separate themselves as "elite players" from the "n00bs". Their egos depend on it. 

Best post I've read on this site thus far, OP.  See you in game.  ^5

Originally posted by TangentPoint

Hell, I already experienced a lot of elitism in GW1. In fact, by far, the most intense MMO players I've ever met in all my years of MMO playing, across all the MMOs I've played, were in GW1.

[...]

Also you said you log on at around 6PM. It's almost 9 and you're only now logging on. You lost 3 hours of leveling time. 

 

If you would like to correct yourself and retain some credibility, now is your chance to do so.

(btw, I'm not claiming there isn't elitism in GW1)

No offense to the OP but I'm ADD as fuck tonight so I couldn't do much but skim the opening post.

There's some good logical points but People in general are NOT good and logical.  No matter what; ...the guys with the most free time will get the most "power Trading" done.  And the real assholes out there will be on the Auction houses "flipping" everything  they can get their hands on to subsidize their powertrading. They're going to be the ones deciding the "value" of things while causing mass inflation b/c they also decided the value & inflation of things in GW1.  Nothing's changed.  ...On top of that, it's going to lightly impact all of us who want to run Guilds & Alliances in WvWvW.    For this specific reason, myself and a couple other guys I consider the "braintrust" for our guild/alliance have decided it's best if we DON'T tell the rest of the guild membership how deep this rabbit hole goes.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing.  We can actually use it to our advantage in some cases and there's LOTS of ways for the casual players to shield themselves from its effects.  A lot more ways than in other MMO's.  But it's also still too overwhelming and oppressive to a new player from a different genre to face down all at once.  They must learn their limitations first and then gradually overcome them to combat this reality.  ...either that or dump some real $cratch in through the NcStore to leverage it directly.

IOW:  If you're like the OP ---  TEMPER YOUR EXPECTATIONS NOW, or this game's community will rip your heart out later...

i wanted to write a extremely lengthy reply about what i thought about your comments on pvp but i would just like to point out how extremely similiar the pvp is to another game that gets alot of talk about and thats "DAOC" if you think that because a entire server is working towards one common goal that you will not be rejected from alot of the elitest groups then your wrong. Yes there will be casual groups out there you can zerg serf all day im sure but if and when u face a real collection of epeen, try hard, pvp junkie eliest, cause there will be some you will quickly realize that the game is not going to revolutionalize much of anything. Now i dont want to come off as not loving this game cause i think everything its bringing to the table is amazing but its been done pvp wise and there is a shining example read those forums brace your self! it will also happen in PvE. So if you really really want to see a crazy new thing i suggest YOU suggest to then a Casual gamers server with rpg rule sets of being nice friendly team work high fives rainbows and butterflys.

and as far as equality is concerned there is no such things because in the end the game is pushing a crazy concept called "skill" and skill will never be balanced. I have been gaming for many years and i find that the more experiance u have aka game time and understanding of your hero which usually comes from game play and facing class's knowing there abilities and so forth can only be gained from play time.

@DeathAngell

You misunderstand the term 'equality.'

The game does have 'equality of chance,' which means that every person has a chance to get the same things, and through many different methods. This evens out the playing field.

And this thread continues to be proof positive that Guild Wars 2 is working.

If it wasn't...

What are the angry people here afraid of?

@BilboDoggins

You're coming across as really defensive. If the thread is so wrong, why the kneejerk, aggressive reaction? It reeks of fear.