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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » This is great. Guild Wars 2 is clearly working.

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273 posts found
  Volkon

Novice Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 3813

Facts do not require fiction for balance.

3/21/12 4:09:29 PM#101
Originally posted by Creslin321
It doesn't really bother me that some dude gets to level 80 faster...that never really bothers me.  What bothers me is the general principle of monetizing cheats.  It's...I don't know, unsportsmanlike?  It just rubs me the wrong way.  I feel like it compromises the integrity of the game.

 

Also...if you can always craft the best items for your level, then that means you can always buy the best items for your level, because if they are crafted, they will be on the AH ;).

Heck, I may wind up being wrong about this.  Maybe the whole RMT thing will increase the demand for crafted items and make crafting more fun.  We'll see.  I'm just concerned for now.  Buying virtual goods for real money has never been something I've been a fan of.

 

Bah, concerns any time a cash shop is mentioned are fully warranted... look at some other games and you'll see why. But, I honestly feel that with the system as a whole, the whole paradigm shift, this will ultimately prove to be an enhancing feature as opposed to a denigrating one. I know for one I'll be too busy just deciding whether or not to PvE or WvW to care what's in the store for a long time... dang, I'm not even sure how long it'll be before I bother with a first alt, let alone need a character slot.

 

I still don't see any cheats, personally, being used to the convenience items in GW1.

Oderint, dum metuant.

  Adalwulff

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/18/10
Posts: 1191

"I am not the light, or the darkness, but the twilight in between"

3/21/12 4:13:30 PM#102
Originally posted by grindery

 The gem system undermines the players who actually play the game and invest time in the game. As opposed to players who play the game considerbly less.  I'm not saying that casual players should be restricted on what they receieve.

Your arguement with single player games is really the straw man arguement here, as it has nothing to do with MMO's. Single player games are designed with a shelf life. They have an end and you can only accomplish so much. Short play time is specifically indoctrined into the single player mentality. An MMO is designed to be a constant, ever evolving game WORLD. Emphasis on the world part; it is entirely ill logical to think that a gamer who plays one hour a day progresses at the same speed as someone who plays four hours a day.

The gem system undermines this basic design philosophy. I whole heartedly believe that whoever spends more time in a game than I do should have more things that I do. They should advance through content faster than I do, they should get acess to better gear before I do.

The casual generation believes that the raider mentality is that of someone wtih no life. As a casual player, the last raid I did required a playtime of 40 mins. With your examples, that is the same play time as one of the longer, more in depth dungeons in skyrim. Your views on raids and raider mentality is entirely wrong and unjustified.

A raider should have access to specific tiers of gear or power than a casual player who doesn't partake in those activities, you're saying that they should. Why should those who play a game considerably less receieve the same amount of power in the game?

 

 

This system creates a void, the "haves" and the "have nots". That kills games fast, esepcailly pvp games.

Many players are here to have fun, and you cannot have fun with have the population because they wipe you in 2 hits. That a huge imbalance, there is no need for it.

  User Deleted
3/21/12 4:14:40 PM#103

Paradigm shift?

For that to work in an MMO, the majority of the player base will have to make that transition.

GW2 is leaving out the things in an MMO that I like. I want to build something. I am not talking about crafting, I am talking about my cahracter.

OP, you say it will be about skill. But that just sounds like glorified twitch to me. 

I don't think it's a paradigm shift for this:

I played Rift. Rift is a WoW clone. It's not like GW2, BUT..... I remember my 1st zone invasion in Rift. AWESOME!!!! This is what an MMO should be like. 1, 2, 3, 4 Times, yeah exciting. 6, 10, 20 times, no, not soe much.

Point is....All this stuff in GW2 that is so new and exciting is only the next step in an evolution. Most of it we have seen before in a different form. Rift invasions, You know who pioneered that? Not WarHammer. Anarchy Online Had them.....City of Heoes did next. Same concept, but evolved. Yeah it's fun...for a little while. DEs will be no different. Yeah, greet 1st few times, but  they'll get old.

The way I see it (My Paradigm) GW2 will appeal to players who enjoy earning titles and working towards social gear. That's not my game, so for me, once or twice through new content will be enough. 

 

I see GW2 as a nich game that will ultimately end up with a smaller player base than what people are thinking now.

 

That said....It's my paradigm and if OP is correct. This will be subject to change. 

I am all for that! Why? Because if I am wrong, then it means I have a game that I can enjoy for a long time to come.

So.....GW2, Please change my point of reference. While I remain skeptical, I am open....no desperate for a game to prove me wrong.

 

 

  Neverdyne

Novice Member

Joined: 4/21/08
Posts: 168

3/21/12 4:15:34 PM#104
Originally posted by Dream_Chaser

@Neverdyne

You're equating an RL activity (saving for a soccer ball) to a game. A game is not RL. A game is not work. This is where the argument falls apart for me. In my opinion, if you want to work then why not get a job? A game is something you play to enjoy some leisure time. And the progression comes from the story and your personal enjoyment of the game.

 For some people, possibly you included, the hassle of "working" in a game is not fun, but for many others, like me, if we get everything free and easy it becomes meaningless. My enjoyment of a game comes from accomplishing things, hard things, and feeling how my character is progressing. If I accomplish something that was never hard or didn't require "work", like buying a vanity item from the store for 5 bucks, I really don't feel attached to it. I don't find value in it. 

  Adalwulff

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/18/10
Posts: 1191

"I am not the light, or the darkness, but the twilight in between"

3/21/12 4:16:39 PM#105
Originally posted by RefMinor
Originally posted by MwynForever
Originally posted by RefMinor
Originally posted by korent1991
Originally posted by RefMinor
In the old days you had F2P titles with P2W cash shops, then in a glorious stroke of innovation Anet sold us B2P titles with P2W cash shops and a subset of the MMO population cried out in thanks.

Trolling again :D

ANet with GW1 didn't even had the cash shop when it was launched... It was implemented after and offers character outfits, extra char slots, name change, gender change, bonus mission pack for EOTN, pvp items and spells for pvp char only, and that's about it I think...

So where's the P2W in that GW cash shop?

 

If what you just said is correct then the PvP spells and items you said were in GW1 would be the standard definition of pay to win

Really that's pretty funny because just the other day someone was asking for help in GW1 in the pvp area I was in while waiting to play. So I message him and tell him maybe he should join a few games until he has enough points to get an elite that he would like to try out. I have all the elites he says. I have all the skills. Ah right, well go check out PvX or something and find yourself a build you'd like to try out. What's a build he says? Will he get it eventually? Probably. But clearly he didn't buy an I WIN button and I am pretty sure the people he groups with will have a harder time winning too until he gets it.

 

But he would beat another complete tool who had not bought all the kit assuming equal skill, money buys advantage.

 

Actually money only buys time, and time is not an advantage because you get bumped up in WvW. And structured PvP is compelty equal.

  grindery

Novice Member

Joined: 8/14/05
Posts: 35

3/21/12 4:17:58 PM#106

The void it creates is entirely reward based. This is why many games include brackets for pvp, or pvp gear. Once again it comes down to casual player entitlement.

It is unfair to you because they have better gear than you even though they quadrupled your play time. [Mod Edit]

  RefMinor

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/11
Posts: 3545

Hipster

3/21/12 4:18:29 PM#107
Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by RefMinor

 

But he would beat another complete tool who had not bought all the kit assuming equal skill, money buys advantage.

Considering the rarity you're ever in a 1v1 situation in GW that's an odd thing to base anything off of, but even that's not true. You can buy the skill pack, yes. You can only use skills from your primary and secondary professions. You can create builds that effectively gimp yourself, a negative synergy if you will. If two "tools" are having at it 1v1... well, no matter how much one spent, (I was going to say no one wins... but) they both ultimately win as they gain experience and skill needed to be successful in GW1.

 

The guy who didn't buy will be using his Balthazaar faction he's earning to learn more skills, most likely targetting ones that he feels will be useful in fixing his build. In a sense, he'll ultimately wind up winning due to not paying.

 

Wow, Anet must be really dumb if they have designed a cash shop that gimps its customers.
  Mythios11

Novice Member

Joined: 11/18/11
Posts: 131

Confucious say: "Man who go to bed with itchy butt, wake up with smelly finger"

3/21/12 4:18:43 PM#108
Originally posted by Adalwulff
Originally posted by grindery

 The gem system undermines the players who actually play the game and invest time in the game. As opposed to players who play the game considerbly less.  I'm not saying that casual players should be restricted on what they receieve.

Your arguement with single player games is really the straw man arguement here, as it has nothing to do with MMO's. Single player games are designed with a shelf life. They have an end and you can only accomplish so much. Short play time is specifically indoctrined into the single player mentality. An MMO is designed to be a constant, ever evolving game WORLD. Emphasis on the world part; it is entirely ill logical to think that a gamer who plays one hour a day progresses at the same speed as someone who plays four hours a day.

The gem system undermines this basic design philosophy. I whole heartedly believe that whoever spends more time in a game than I do should have more things that I do. They should advance through content faster than I do, they should get acess to better gear before I do.

The casual generation believes that the raider mentality is that of someone wtih no life. As a casual player, the last raid I did required a playtime of 40 mins. With your examples, that is the same play time as one of the longer, more in depth dungeons in skyrim. Your views on raids and raider mentality is entirely wrong and unjustified.

A raider should have access to specific tiers of gear or power than a casual player who doesn't partake in those activities, you're saying that they should. Why should those who play a game considerably less receieve the same amount of power in the game?

 

 

This system creates a void, the "haves" and the "have nots". That kills games fast, esepcailly pvp games.

Many players are here to have fun, and you cannot have fun with have the population because they wipe you in 2 hits. That a huge imbalance, there is no need for it.

What kills games fast is alienating your hardcore players in order to appease the casuals who will most likely move on to another game in a month or two anyway.

 

  InFaVilla

Novice Member

Joined: 7/27/10
Posts: 603

3/21/12 4:19:05 PM#109
Originally posted by Neverdyne
Originally posted by Dream_Chaser

@Neverdyne

You're equating an RL activity (saving for a soccer ball) to a game. A game is not RL. A game is not work. This is where the argument falls apart for me. In my opinion, if you want to work then why not get a job? A game is something you play to enjoy some leisure time. And the progression comes from the story and your personal enjoyment of the game.

 For some people, possibly you included, the hassle of "working" in a game is not fun, but for many others, like me, if we get everything free and easy it becomes meaningless. My enjoyment of a game comes from accomplishing things, hard things, and feeling how my character is progressing. If I accomplish something that was never hard or didn't require "work", like buying a vanity item from the store for 5 bucks, I really don't feel attached to it. I don't find value in it. 

Precisely, money is not the problem, the principle is. I want to "earn" my progression, no matter if it is exploration-wise, title-wise, gear-wise, vanity-wise. 

 

If something is too grindy and boring, then the developers should change the game and not  just do the lazy thing of selling the "band-aid" through an item mall. 

  Adalwulff

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/18/10
Posts: 1191

"I am not the light, or the darkness, but the twilight in between"

3/21/12 4:21:21 PM#110
Originally posted by Neverdyne
Originally posted by Dream_Chaser

@Neverdyne

You're equating an RL activity (saving for a soccer ball) to a game. A game is not RL. A game is not work. This is where the argument falls apart for me. In my opinion, if you want to work then why not get a job? A game is something you play to enjoy some leisure time. And the progression comes from the story and your personal enjoyment of the game.

 For some people, possibly you included, the hassle of "working" in a game is not fun, but for many others, like me, if we get everything free and easy it becomes meaningless. My enjoyment of a game comes from accomplishing things, hard things, and feeling how my character is progressing. If I accomplish something that was never hard or didn't require "work", like buying a vanity item from the store for 5 bucks, I really don't feel attached to it. I don't find value in it. 

 

You could definitly do that, one way is find the lowest level mob, probably near town, and grind on them until you hit max level. I am sure that would very hard to do, if you make it, that would be something to feel proud of.

  Adalwulff

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/18/10
Posts: 1191

"I am not the light, or the darkness, but the twilight in between"

3/21/12 4:23:55 PM#111
Originally posted by Mythios11
Originally posted by Adalwulff
Originally posted by grindery

 The gem system undermines the players who actually play the game and invest time in the game. As opposed to players who play the game considerbly less.  I'm not saying that casual players should be restricted on what they receieve.

Your arguement with single player games is really the straw man arguement here, as it has nothing to do with MMO's. Single player games are designed with a shelf life. They have an end and you can only accomplish so much. Short play time is specifically indoctrined into the single player mentality. An MMO is designed to be a constant, ever evolving game WORLD. Emphasis on the world part; it is entirely ill logical to think that a gamer who plays one hour a day progresses at the same speed as someone who plays four hours a day.

The gem system undermines this basic design philosophy. I whole heartedly believe that whoever spends more time in a game than I do should have more things that I do. They should advance through content faster than I do, they should get acess to better gear before I do.

The casual generation believes that the raider mentality is that of someone wtih no life. As a casual player, the last raid I did required a playtime of 40 mins. With your examples, that is the same play time as one of the longer, more in depth dungeons in skyrim. Your views on raids and raider mentality is entirely wrong and unjustified.

A raider should have access to specific tiers of gear or power than a casual player who doesn't partake in those activities, you're saying that they should. Why should those who play a game considerably less receieve the same amount of power in the game?

 

 

This system creates a void, the "haves" and the "have nots". That kills games fast, esepcailly pvp games.

Many players are here to have fun, and you cannot have fun with have the population because they wipe you in 2 hits. That a huge imbalance, there is no need for it.

What kills games fast is alienating your hardcore players in order to appease the casuals who will most likely move on to another game in a month or two anyway.

 

Actaully Ive noticed its the hardcores that move around a lot.

Besides there is nothing casual about the WvW, it only lasts 2 weeks, so you have to be in there a lot if you really want to make a difference. During that time, you earn gold and gear for your hard work.

  Bunks

Novice Member

Joined: 1/08/12
Posts: 987

3/21/12 4:24:36 PM#112
Originally posted by Mythios11

What kills games fast is alienating your hardcore players in order to appease the casuals.  

 

What if, a game is designed to not appeal to hardcore gamers and yet they still sell 2 million boxes?

In case you haven't figured out Anet design philosophy, it's to drive away certain types of players, just to appeal to a group who has been left stranded looking for  a game that hasn't been made for them since the late 90's. The wild west is over, there is a new sheriff in town.

  Caiden

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/27/08
Posts: 30

3/21/12 4:25:49 PM#113

Good reading in this thread. A lot of nice points.

A tipped hat to the OP.

  Vorthanion

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1966

3/21/12 4:27:04 PM#114
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by Dream_Chaser

@drakaena

People tried elitism through those in GW1.

Didn't work.

Same for Champions Online, really.

I'm not quite following this post.  It's a little too abbreviated.  Are you trying to say there's not elitism in GW1?  I sure as hell hope not because it is rampant in randoms, GvG, high end instance farming, and guild alliances.  Hey you want in our group?  What's your emote?

Hell, ANet balances classes and skills based on the feedback of a few elitist guilds.  Having a few guilds so heavily influence the meta has been one of their biggest weaknesses in my opinion.

There will be elitism in GW2.  It will happen for dungeon runs, high end pve and pvp, and other areas that will surface.  You can't stop an inherent human trait from manifesting itself.

I'd much rather the elitism be based on player behavior than on game mechanics that foster it and then some.

  Mythios11

Novice Member

Joined: 11/18/11
Posts: 131

Confucious say: "Man who go to bed with itchy butt, wake up with smelly finger"

3/21/12 4:28:07 PM#115
Originally posted by Bunks
Originally posted by Mythios11

What kills games fast is alienating your hardcore players in order to appease the casuals.  

 

What if, a game is designed to not appeal to hardcore gamers and yet they still sell 2 million boxes?

In case you haven't figured out Anet design philosophy, it's to drive away certain types of players, just to appeal to a group who has been left stranded looking for  a game that hasn't been made for them since the late 90's. The wild west is over, there is a new sheriff in town.

Just out of curiosity, which group of stranded gamers are you referring to??

 

  Vorthanion

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1966

3/21/12 4:29:16 PM#116
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by Dream_Chaser
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by DarkPony

Oh dear ... someone just made instant gratification, lack of long term gameplay incentives and Anet's player conflict avoidance philosophy sound good ... and got away with it!?

BM' ing this for future reference.

I disagree on almost all parts but I do recognize your speach writing capacities. You could probably sell people bricks for gold bars.

Sometimes I love your wit and insight.  This is one of those times.  I'm just a little bit disappointed Soylent Green wasn't in the OP list, but I'll get over it.

T[mod edit]

  Adalwulff

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/18/10
Posts: 1191

"I am not the light, or the darkness, but the twilight in between"

3/21/12 4:34:09 PM#117
Originally posted by Mythios11
Originally posted by Bunks
Originally posted by Mythios11

What kills games fast is alienating your hardcore players in order to appease the casuals.  

 

What if, a game is designed to not appeal to hardcore gamers and yet they still sell 2 million boxes?

In case you haven't figured out Anet design philosophy, it's to drive away certain types of players, just to appeal to a group who has been left stranded looking for  a game that hasn't been made for them since the late 90's. The wild west is over, there is a new sheriff in town.

Just out of curiosity, which group of stranded gamers are you referring to??

 

 

Probably the group that doesnt want to grind for days so they can enjoy the game, the last handfull of MMO's released have catered to the grinding crowd, with lots of pixel candy for thier efforts.

Now we get something different, sounds fair to me!

  Bunks

Novice Member

Joined: 1/08/12
Posts: 987

3/21/12 4:39:08 PM#118
Originally posted by Mythios11
Originally posted by Bunks
Originally posted by Mythios11

What kills games fast is alienating your hardcore players in order to appease the casuals.  

 

What if, a game is designed to not appeal to hardcore gamers and yet they still sell 2 million boxes?

In case you haven't figured out Anet design philosophy, it's to drive away certain types of players, just to appeal to a group who has been left stranded looking for  a game that hasn't been made for them since the late 90's. The wild west is over, there is a new sheriff in town.

Just out of curiosity, which group of stranded gamers are you referring to??

 

people like myself. Exploreres, group players, community wonks, ect.

Who this doesn't include- antisocials, greifers, hard core raiders, gankers, kill stealers, wallet warriors(gold farm purchasers) , people who spend half their day trying out how to ruin somone else's gameplay ect....ect. In shorter terms, mature human beings.

Want to know how, Anet designed the game with many safegaurd intrisic in its design to minimize this behavior, they also spent many hours figuring out how to get people to actually want to PLAY together. First thing was to kill the trinity system, kill raiding guilds, kill gear whores, and make the game more balanced for differning play styles.

You want hardcore- come to PvP. I will gladly show you harcore since all things will be eqaul.

  Volkon

Novice Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 3813

Facts do not require fiction for balance.

3/21/12 4:40:59 PM#119
Originally posted by Adalwulff 

 

This system creates a void, the "haves" and the "have nots". That kills games fast, esepcailly pvp games.

Many players are here to have fun, and you cannot have fun with have the population because they wipe you in 2 hits. That a huge imbalance, there is no need for it.

This is completely false. You seem to have missed the part where... gear at max level is all equivalent, where everyone in WvW has levle 80 stats at the minimum, etc. You cannot two shot someone.

Oderint, dum metuant.

  Four0Six

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/18/11
Posts: 1161

3/21/12 4:42:41 PM#120

I mostly agree with the OP, except there is a danger of these "casual" games to turn out like SW:ToR. By that I mean too easy.

Here's to hoping GW2 is able to bridge the gap.

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