I need an answer: is there any good reason for me to spend my real money to get gold unless I want hundreds different outfits quickly?

Originally posted by grindery

I''ve never seen such a great op turn into poor written name calling so fast. I disagree with most of the points, however, the original post was incredibly constructed. The reason I'm responding though is because the op and his quip about self entitlement.

It's extremely funny that he calls out those with more time spent in a game, and calls them entitled. When to me it's just the other way around. Casual gamers (which I am) seem to want to be able to log into their chosen game and have their mailbox filled with items on par with raiding items. To me the only ones exhuding entitlement are casual players.

Eventually, the whine and casual passive-aggressive complaints are going to change mmo's the want they want them to be. I can see it now, upon character creation you will choose whether you're a hardcore player or a casual player.

Upon choosing hardcore players will log on and play the game how they want to. Then casual players will receive the same amount of xp as the hardcore player does while sitting in the starting city. On top of that, any piece of shiny new gear that the hardcore player finds is immediately duplicated and mailed to all casual players.

Seems like a glorious game to me, finally the time vs rewards arguement will be solved.

+1

I remember back in Vanilla WoW when only the very best players had epic items,  I can log into WoW now and within an hour have enough Justice or Honor points to get an epic item.

Instant gratification and an even playing field for all players does not make an MMO better.  In fact, it has proven to ruin most communities (look at WoW)

Originally posted by korent1991

Originally posted by RefMinor
In the old days you had F2P titles with P2W cash shops, then in a glorious stroke of innovation Anet sold us B2P titles with P2W cash shops and a subset of the MMO population cried out in thanks.

[mod edit]

ANet with GW1 didn't even had the cash shop when it was launched... It was implemented after and offers character outfits, extra char slots, name change, gender change, bonus mission pack for EOTN, pvp items and spells for pvp char only, and that's about it I think...

So where's the P2W in that GW cash shop?

If what you just said is correct then the PvP spells and items you said were in GW1 would be the standard definition of pay to win

Originally posted by Mythios11

Originally posted by grindery

I''ve never seen such a great op turn into poor written name calling so fast. I disagree with most of the points, however, the original post was incredibly constructed. The reason I'm responding though is because the op and his quip about self entitlement.

It's extremely funny that he calls out those with more time spent in a game, and calls them entitled. When to me it's just the other way around. Casual gamers (which I am) seem to want to be able to log into their chosen game and have their mailbox filled with items on par with raiding items. To me the only ones exhuding entitlement are casual players.

Eventually, the whine and casual passive-aggressive complaints are going to change mmo's the want they want them to be. I can see it now, upon character creation you will choose whether you're a hardcore player or a casual player.

Upon choosing hardcore players will log on and play the game how they want to. Then casual players will receive the same amount of xp as the hardcore player does while sitting in the starting city. On top of that, any piece of shiny new gear that the hardcore player finds is immediately duplicated and mailed to all casual players.

Seems like a glorious game to me, finally the time vs rewards arguement will be solved.

+1

I remember back in Vanilla WoW when only the very best players had epic items,  I can log into WoW now and within an hour have enough Justice or Honor points to get an epic item.

Instant gratification and an even playing field for all players does not make an MMO better.  In fact, it has proven to ruin most communities (look at WoW)

 

 

I definitly agree with you on this. I never considered myself a hardcore player, just very goal oriented. I can sit back and remember ny days in SWG unlocking my jedi. It took me 7 months total from unlock to full template and 33 million xp when i was finally done. So much time invested just to have other's complain about what and how long it took for SOE to give them insta jedi in the NGE.

What and how GW2 does to even things out on such things will be interesting.

Right, back to the intellectual side of things.

Where has WoW brought in instant gratification, and how has it 'ruined the community' compared to before?

Originally posted by Creslin321

1.  I can literally spend a few minutes in the MMORPG world and be the richest person in the game without talking to anyone, by simply paying cash.

2.  I don't really see how it's better that now only people who pay can "cheat."  I grant that the cheats aren't nearly as severe as they are in SP games...but the point stands.

Snipped for brevity... first point, no, you can't. You can buy all the gems you want, but they don't make you rich... they only give you access to items in the shop. You can trade the gems for gold, yes, but only gold players are willing to trade to you gor the gems to get access to the shop. You can, literally, have 10K gems and not enough gold to buy anything. Gems don't make you rich, they serve to redistribute gold from people with lots of gold that desire gems for the shop to people without lots of gold that desire the gold for ingame purchases.

Second point... what cheats? There's nothing in the shop that's a cheat. Even if there are experience scrolls, for example, that's standard GW1 type stuff and, with the flat levelling curve and power plateau in GW2 hardly worth purchasing.

Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by korent1991

Originally posted by RefMinor
In the old days you had F2P titles with P2W cash shops, then in a glorious stroke of innovation Anet sold us B2P titles with P2W cash shops and a subset of the MMO population cried out in thanks.

[mod edit]

ANet with GW1 didn't even had the cash shop when it was launched... It was implemented after and offers character outfits, extra char slots, name change, gender change, bonus mission pack for EOTN, pvp items and spells for pvp char only, and that's about it I think...

So where's the P2W in that GW cash shop?

 

If what you just said is correct then the PvP spells and items you said were in GW1 would be the standard definition of pay to win

Your post clearly shows you know nothing. You only unlocked spells that everyone could get by playing some days. It was a shorcut. You could have all the spells and i could have only 8 and it would make no difference You could only use 8 at a time. The only thing they did was create versatility for the player. You could get all the skills and it wouldnt matter. If you suck at the game or if im better than you at the game i can own you completely with my 8 skills that work together better than yours.

The argument that 'reasonable amount of effort and skill' equates to 'no effort or skill' is a fallacious one.

I used singleplayer games as an example. You can burn through a singleplayer game in eight hours, but that doesn't mean that it didn't require skill to do it (and a hell of a lot more skill than the vast majority of MMOs in many singleplayer games, too, as we all should know). My argument was for reasonable content length akin to singleplayer games, rather than the padded stuff that takes hours to complete.

Wasting 10 hours of your life in WoW or sit in a city and get everything for free was never the argument. That's intellectually dishonest and it shows an insidious, nasty, calculating mind at work to pervert it into being that. And those responsible for perpetrating this faux argument know it. Do you know what that's called? It's a straw-man. You may want to look it up, but it's where you take an argument of your own creation, and substitute the original argument with it.

But my argument was in the OP.

How does my original argument equate to wanting to sit around cities whilst being given everything for free? It doesn't. It's nowhere to be found. That's why it's a straw-man. I want MMORPGs to play like singleplayer games, where you can sit down and complete a mission in a reasonable amount of time. A piece of content in Mass Effect 3 or Skyrim takes... what, 20 minutes? That sounds reasonable. It means that you can have an hour with a game, because your time is limited, complete a few missions, and feel like you've actually done something.

The subscription method is that in that hour, you've gained maybe 2% of an experience bar, and you're sitting there, looking at the screen and the rest of the experience bar as it pours off into infinity. And you get this soul-crushing feeling as you wonder just how much more you'll have to grind before you hit your goal.

Furthermore, my argument has never been against goal-oriented gameplay.

Again, that's just a straw-man picked upon by the unobservant. That wasn't my argument. (I never equated goal-oriented play with being 'hardcore,' rather determined straw-man builders did that.) Once again I direct you to the OP to have a read, because we've got some fairly insidious people here who're trying to subvert this debate to their own ends by filtering in arguments that didn't exist. I dislike that. Come out of the shadows and debate with the rest of us, stop being a coward and creating faux points that existed prior nowhere else other than your own mind.

Finally. My point regarding gems is that let's say there's some gear you want but you don't have the time to get it. You're playing the game like everyone else, you're at level 73, and you've done all the stuff, but you can't afford the time to sit down and play through a dungeon. So you buy some gems and trade them in for that armour set you want. That's instant gratification, yes, but I don't see how that ruins the game. The stats are exactly the same, and the only thing that changes is the cosmetic appearance.

Remember that there isn't just one power plateau in GW2, there are many. You'll get sets which will last for the next amount of content before you need the next set, right up until you get the final set. So if you're on a level 70 set, then anyone else on a level 70 set, via dynamic events, or crafting, or PvP, or dungeons, or whatever is going to have the same stats as you.

So the only thing you're doing is rewarding yourself with a nice new look for your armour after a hard day's work. So you can feel a little better about your character when you head into a dynamic event, next.

I don't see what's so evil about that.

Now then, let's deal with true arguments. Not straw-men.

The OP and many here don't seem to understand the concept of how the more "hardcore" oriented gamers are entertained, and what really is the carrot on current MMOs. You seem to ridicule the raider mentality, but you don't seem to fully understand why it exists. You see, it's the sense of progression what entertains people. And that sense of progression cannot be "felt" if you do not invest work in it. It's the same idea behind why, say, a poor child who really wants a soccer ball spends many weekends working on lawns to save up and buy it, and when it gets it he feels way better about it than a spoiled rich kid who gets a new gameboy for Christmas alongside many other gifts. The latter will use it for a while, but once the novelty passes that gameboy will be left gathering dust. 

How human psycology works is that if you work for something, even if the work itself isn't "fun", and you achieve it you will feel good about it. And that something, for raiders, is progression itself. It's not a new sword, it's not bigger numbers, but the sense of "progressing" through, the sense of "advancement" is what entertains them. 

This is a concept as old as RPGs themselves, ever since leveling was implemented. If you don't give players a sense of progressing they won't feel any "depth" in the game, and thus loose interest sooner. 

@MwynForever

Damn fine post.

Just because you can buy something, that doesn't mean you can also automatically buy all the experience with which to use it.

Logical. Well thought out. Accurate.

Originally posted by Volkon

Originally posted by Creslin321

1.  I can literally spend a few minutes in the MMORPG world and be the richest person in the game without talking to anyone, by simply paying cash.

2.  I don't really see how it's better that now only people who pay can "cheat."  I grant that the cheats aren't nearly as severe as they are in SP games...but the point stands.

Snipped for brevity... first point, no, you can't. You can buy all the gems you want, but they don't make you rich... they only give you access to items in the shop. You can trade the gems for gold, yes, but only gold players are willing to trade to you gor the gems to get access to the shop. You can, literally, have 10K gems and not enough gold to buy anything. Gems don't make you rich, they serve to redistribute gold from people with lots of gold that desire gems for the shop to people without lots of gold that desire the gold for ingame purchases.

You're making a lot of assumptions about the exchange between gold and gems.  Personally, I think that once the economy stabliziles in a few months after release, gems are going to be much more valuable than gold...and I think there will always be an over supply of gold and a strong demand for gems.  I've made my arguments pertaining to this in a lot of other posts so I'm not going to repost them all here...just check my history if you are interested.

Second point... what cheats? There's nothing in the shop that's a cheat. Even if there are experience scrolls, for example, that's standard GW1 type stuff and, with the flat levelling curve and power plateau in GW2 hardly worth purchasing.

It's really a matter of perception.  In older games, a common cheat was to get more powerful items.  You can use the gold you get from selling gems (real money) to get more powerful items...so it's really not that far removed from the whole idea of cheating when you look at it like that.

And you bring up experience scrolls and crap like that yourself...you say they "don't matter" because of the flat leveling curve or what not, but well...if they sell, the DO matter.  Because if they didn't matter...no one would buy them.

@Neverdyne

You're equating an RL activity (saving for a soccer ball) to a game. A game is not RL. A game is not work. This is where the argument falls apart for me. In my opinion, if you want to work then why not get a job? A game is something you play to enjoy some leisure time. And the progression comes from the story and your personal enjoyment of the game.

Originally posted by Dream_Chaser

The argument that 'reasonable amount of effort and skill' equates to 'no effort or skill' is a fallacious one.

I used singleplayer games as an example. You can burn through a singleplayer game in eight hours, but that doesn't mean that it didn't require skill to do it (and a hell of a lot more skill than the vast majority of MMOs in many singleplayer games, too, as we all should know). My argument was for reasonable content length akin to singleplayer games, rather than the padded stuff that takes hours to complete.

Wasting 10 hours of your life in WoW or sit in a city and get everything for free was never the argument. That's intellectually dishonest and it shows an insidious, nasty, calculating mind at work to pervert it into being that. And those responsible for perpetrating this faux argument know it. Do you know what that's called? It's a straw-man. You may want to look it up, but it's where you take an argument of your own creation, and substitute the original argument with it.

But my argument was in the OP.

How does my original argument equate to wanting to sit around cities whilst being given everything for free? It doesn't. It's nowhere to be found. That's why it's a straw-man. I want MMORPGs to play like singleplayer games, where you can sit down and complete a mission in a reasonable amount of time. A piece of content in Mass Effect 3 or Skyrim takes... what, 20 minutes? That sounds reasonable. It means that you can have an hour with a game, because your time is limited, complete a few missions, and feel like you've actually done something.

The subscription method is that in that hour, you've gained maybe 2% of an experience bar, and you're sitting there, looking at the screen and the rest of the experience bar as it pours off into infinity. And you get this soul-crushing feeling as you wonder just how much more you'll have to grind before you hit your goal.

Furthermore, my argument has never been against goal-oriented gameplay.

Again, that's just a straw-man picked upon by the unobservant. That wasn't my argument. (I never equated goal-oriented play with being 'hardcore,' rather determined straw-man builders did that.) Once again I direct you to the OP to have a read, because we've got some fairly insidious people here who're trying to subvert this debate to their own ends by filtering in arguments that didn't exist. I dislike that. Come out of the shadows and debate with the rest of us, stop being a coward and creating faux points that existed prior nowhere else other than your own mind.

Finally. My point regarding gems is that let's say there's some gear you want but you don't have the time to get it. You're playing the game like everyone else, you're at level 73, and you've done all the stuff, but you can't afford the time to sit down and play through a dungeon. So you buy some gems and trade them in for that armour set you want. That's instant gratification, yes, but I don't see how that ruins the game. The stats are exactly the same, and the only thing that changes is the cosmetic appearance.

Remember that there isn't just one power plateau in GW2, there are many. You'll get sets which will last for the next amount of content before you need the next set, right up until you get the final set. So if you're on a level 70 set, then anyone else on a level 70 set, via dynamic events, or crafting, or PvP, or dungeons, or whatever is going to have the same stats as you.

So the only thing you're doing is rewarding yourself with a nice new look for your armour after a hard day's work. So you can feel a little better about your character when you head into a dynamic event, next.

I don't see what's so evil about that.

Now then, let's deal with true arguments. Not straw-men.

I haven't been following MMOs of late, so I won't address GW2 or any specifics of the game. I merely want to touch on the part of your post I highlighted. MMORPG Stans for "Massively MULTIPLAYER Online Role Playing Game". It is not supposed to be anything like a single player game. Not at all. You seem to want a MSORPG.

@PaybackXero

Playing semantics. Irrelevant.

Argument I made applies to singleplayer, co-op, and MMORPGs. There is content in Champions Online and Guild Wars that can be completed fast. The amount of players involved is not mutually inclusive of the amount of grind involved. These two elements have nothing to do with each other.

Great post, and I agree 100%.  Even though I am usually very vocal about games on this site, I've been quiet about GW2.  The reason is that most of the discussions taking place have to do with the simple fact that people are trying to understand GW2 in context with prior games.  They don't get that this is a completely new animal here.

The other thing I am noticing is that this may be the first themepark game that builds community similar to a full-on sandbox.  Not exactly the same, but in the sense of what you said in your post.  There is no rush to the end.  There is no reason to feel like you need to level up faster than the other guy.  Not even for PvP really, since you can jump right in from your first day.  This game could turn out to be a return to much more social MMO games, especially if ANet invests some effort into social features,  lite-RP, and later on an interesting an innovative player housing system.

I'll tell you this.  I love PvP in concept.  I came from and still play competetive FPS games, so it's a natural fit for me.  The thing is that in most themepark MMO games, PvP sucked for me.  One of my favorite FPS modes is Capture the Flag.  This is a game where your team absolutely works together, and uses strategy to win.  Your gear doesn't matter, it's how you planned and executed.  THAT was fun, and the only excuse you had for losing was that you weren't good enough.  It wasn't because your gear sucked because you don't play the game 80 hours per week.  It's because you failed in your planning and/or execution.

THIS is why I am excited for PvP in GW2.  I know the gear won't be completely even, but if I'm understanding it correctly, your gameplay skill and teamwork is much more important than your gear, and that hasn't been the case for casual player in any other modern MMO.  I never cared about end-game because I saw the treadmill it was, and because I didn't have the time to invest in it.

People need to get their minds around this.  Guild Wars 2 is something new.  It will be familiar enough, and it won't take long to adjust, but if you are trying to understand it in terms of other modern MMO models, you're wrong.

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Volkon

Originally posted by Creslin321

1.  I can literally spend a few minutes in the MMORPG world and be the richest person in the game without talking to anyone, by simply paying cash.

2.  I don't really see how it's better that now only people who pay can "cheat."  I grant that the cheats aren't nearly as severe as they are in SP games...but the point stands.

Snipped for brevity... first point, no, you can't. You can buy all the gems you want, but they don't make you rich... they only give you access to items in the shop. You can trade the gems for gold, yes, but only gold players are willing to trade to you gor the gems to get access to the shop. You can, literally, have 10K gems and not enough gold to buy anything. Gems don't make you rich, they serve to redistribute gold from people with lots of gold that desire gems for the shop to people without lots of gold that desire the gold for ingame purchases.

You're making a lot of assumptions about the exchange between gold and gems.  Personally, I think that once the economy stabliziles in a few months after release, gems are going to be much more valuable than gold...and I think there will always be an over supply of gold and a strong demand for gems.  I've made my arguments pertaining to this in a lot of other posts so I'm not going to repost them all here...just check my history if you are interested.

If gems are that much in demand, people will buy more gems bringing the value down, similar to Plex in Eve. When Plex prices are high, I'd buy a few and stock up on ISK (before settling into wormholes).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Second point... what cheats? There's nothing in the shop that's a cheat. Even if there are experience scrolls, for example, that's standard GW1 type stuff and, with the flat levelling curve and power plateau in GW2 hardly worth purchasing.

It's really a matter of perception.  In older games, a common cheat was to get more powerful items.  You can use the gold you get from selling gems (real money) to get more powerful items...so it's really not that far removed from the whole idea of cheating when you look at it like that.

And you bring up experience scrolls and crap like that yourself...you say they "don't matter" because of the flat leveling curve or what not, but well...if they sell, the DO matter.  Because if they didn't matter...no one would buy them.

 If they sell, they sell... but with the design of the game the're not giving you any real power. Perhaps you beat me to 80... well, grats. There's no power shift in you doing so and to be honest I'm wondering what you missed in your hurry to get there. More powerful items... I assume you mean on the path to 80 since once you hit 80 items plateau... you know, if someone wants to purchase a better weapon or armor while they're levelling up only to have it become obsolete because they raced through with experience scrolls... well, ANet thanks them for their gem purchase, but they seem rather silly, do they not? Besides, in a game where you can craft the best items for your level... well, I have to admit I don't see that as a real problem.

Originally posted by MwynForever

Originally posted by RefMinor

Originally posted by korent1991

Originally posted by RefMinor
In the old days you had F2P titles with P2W cash shops, then in a glorious stroke of innovation Anet sold us B2P titles with P2W cash shops and a subset of the MMO population cried out in thanks.

Trolling again :D

ANet with GW1 didn't even had the cash shop when it was launched... It was implemented after and offers character outfits, extra char slots, name change, gender change, bonus mission pack for EOTN, pvp items and spells for pvp char only, and that's about it I think...

So where's the P2W in that GW cash shop?

 

If what you just said is correct then the PvP spells and items you said were in GW1 would be the standard definition of pay to win

Really that's pretty funny because just the other day someone was asking for help in GW1 in the pvp area I was in while waiting to play. So I message him and tell him maybe he should join a few games until he has enough points to get an elite that he would like to try out. I have all the elites he says. I have all the skills. Ah right, well go check out PvX or something and find yourself a build you'd like to try out. What's a build he says? Will he get it eventually? Probably. But clearly he didn't buy an I WIN button and I am pretty sure the people he groups with will have a harder time winning too until he gets it.

 The gem system undermines the players who actually play the game and invest time in the game. As opposed to players who play the game considerbly less.  I'm not saying that casual players should be restricted on what they receieve.

Your arguement with single player games is really the straw man arguement here, as it has nothing to do with MMO's. Single player games are designed with a shelf life. They have an end and you can only accomplish so much. Short play time is specifically indoctrined into the single player mentality. An MMO is designed to be a constant, ever evolving game WORLD. Emphasis on the world part; it is entirely ill logical to think that a gamer who plays one hour a day progresses at the same speed as someone who plays four hours a day.

The gem system undermines this basic design philosophy. I whole heartedly believe that whoever spends more time in a game than I do should have more things that I do. They should advance through content faster than I do, they should get acess to better gear before I do.

The casual generation believes that the raider mentality is that of someone wtih no life. As a casual player, the last raid I did required a playtime of 40 mins. With your examples, that is the same play time as one of the longer, more in depth dungeons in skyrim. Your views on raids and raider mentality is entirely wrong and unjustified.

A raider should have access to specific tiers of gear or power than a casual player who doesn't partake in those activities, you're saying that they should. Why should those who play a game considerably less receieve the same amount of power in the game?

Originally posted by Volkon

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Volkon

Originally posted by Creslin321

..).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Second point... what cheats? There's nothing in the shop that's a cheat. Even if there are experience scrolls, for example, that's standard GW1 type stuff and, with the flat levelling curve and power plateau in GW2 hardly worth purchasing.

It's really a matter of perception.  In older games, a common cheat was to get more powerful items.  You can use the gold you get from selling gems (real money) to get more powerful items...so it's really not that far removed from the whole idea of cheating when you look at it like that.

And you bring up experience scrolls and crap like that yourself...you say they "don't matter" because of the flat leveling curve or what not, but well...if they sell, the DO matter.  Because if they didn't matter...no one would buy them.

 If they sell, they sell... but with the design of the game the're not giving you any real power. Perhaps you beat me to 80... well, grats. There's no power shift in you doing so and to be honest I'm wondering what you missed in your hurry to get there. More powerful items... I assume you mean on the path to 80 since once you hit 80 items plateau... you know, if someone wants to purchase a better weapon or armor while they're levelling up only to have it become obsolete because they raced through with experience scrolls... well, ANet thanks them for their gem purchase, but they seem rather silly, do they not? Besides, in a game where you can craft the best items for your level... well, I have to admit I don't see that as a real problem.

 

It doesn't really bother me that some dude gets to level 80 faster...that never really bothers me.  What bothers me is the general principle of monetizing cheats.  It's...I don't know, unsportsmanlike?  It just rubs me the wrong way.  I feel like it compromises the integrity of the game.

Also...if you can always craft the best items for your level, then that means you can always buy the best items for your level, because if they are crafted, they will be on the AH ;).

Heck, I may wind up being wrong about this.  Maybe the whole RMT thing will increase the demand for crafted items and make crafting more fun.  We'll see.  I'm just concerned for now.  Buying virtual goods for real money has never been something I've been a fan of.

Originally posted by RefMinor

 

But he would beat another complete tool who had not bought all the kit assuming equal skill, money buys advantage.

Considering the rarity you're ever in a 1v1 situation in GW that's an odd thing to base anything off of, but even that's not true. You can buy the skill pack, yes. You can only use skills from your primary and secondary professions. You can create builds that effectively gimp yourself, a negative synergy if you will. If two "tools" are having at it 1v1... well, no matter how much one spent, (I was going to say no one wins... but) they both ultimately win as they gain experience and skill needed to be successful in GW1.

The guy who didn't buy will be using his Balthazaar faction he's earning to learn more skills, most likely targetting ones that he feels will be useful in fixing his build. In a sense, he'll ultimately wind up winning due to not paying.