Here's the simplest way I can put it:

Guild Wars 2 isn't a game about getting the reward to have fun, it's a game about having fun getting the reward.

Other MMOs are designed around getting a piece of loot as the part of its content that you look forward to most. Guild Wars 2 makes it so that getting your reward is just the cherry on top of a fun experience that leads up to it.

It's naive to think people will continue to play this game just because "it's fun."  LotRO, WAR, Rift, and SW:TOR were all "fun," but eventually players consumed the content and ran out of things to do.  Those players didn't stick around running the same content over and over again.  What was fun for awhile soon became boring.  I'm not sure GW2's dynamic events will be enough to make every experience completely unique.

If GW2 wants to be a game that can compete with WoW for a long-term playerbase, it has to have some sort of a hook.  That doesnt' mean the game "has" to have raid progression, but there has to be something that keeps GW2 players feeling compelled to log in aside from "just because it's fun."  Games like League of Legends, TF2, and Starcraft II have minimal character progression and little to no grind, but people keep coming back to those games because of their competitive nature. If in those games players did nothing but run BOT matches over and over, they wouldn't have lasted 1 month.  I suspect GW2's PvP will be fairly competitive, so that's going to attract a certain type of gamer, but I'll be interested to see how long it takes the average MMO gamer to burn through the PvE content and how quick the individual grows tired of the content.  PvE games need some sort of an artificial hook to keep people playing, and without one, I'm not sure the game will have longevity.

Originally posted by SuperXero89

It's naive to think people will continue to play this game just because "it's fun."  LotRO, WAR, Rift, and SW:TOR were all "fun," but eventually players consumed the content and ran out of things to do.  Those players didn't stick around running the same content over and over again.  What was fun for awhile soon became boring.  I'm not sure GW2's dynamic events will be enough to make every experience completely unique.

If GW2 wants to be a game that can compete with WoW for a long-term playerbase, it has to have some sort of a hook.  That doesnt' mean the game "has" to have raid progression, but there has to be something that keeps GW2 players feeling compelled to log in aside from "just because it's fun."  Games like League of Legends, TF2, and Starcraft II have minimal character progression and little to no grind, but people keep coming back to those games because of their competitive nature. If in those games players did nothing but run BOT matches over and over, they wouldn't have lasted 1 month.  I suspect GW2's PvP will be fairly competitive, so that's going to attract a certain type of gamer, but I'll be interested to see how long it takes the average MMO gamer to burn through the PvE content and how quick the individual grows tired of the content.  PvE games need some sort of an artificial hook to keep people playing, and without one, I'm not sure the game will have longevity.

All of those games have a sub fee.   Even if you had your 100 hours of fun and the content stops, you can always come back and buy the expansion pack for more 'content'.

A-net made it clear from day 1 that GW2 is not going to be a game about end game raiding for loot/stat progression.   If you want to play that kind of a game, pretty much every other MMO on the market offers that.   GW2 offers something that no other MMO on the market offers to people who want it.

Originally posted by Badgered86

The entire premise of the OP shows just how conditioned most people (especially MMO gamers) are.  The point of MMOs (and games in general) is not to grind something, it's to have fun.  Grinding is a tool used by subscription-based games to prolong the amount of time you will spend playing so as to generate more revenue from subscription fees.

Thats a big load of bs.

Grinding = progression and has been the heart of RPG since its inception, questing being its soul.

Only since WoW I've started to hear that word thrown left and right. You know why? Because the genre is now full of non rpg gamers that came to a genre not fit for their gaming need just because they saw a commercial on tv and heard it was the next big thing. MMORPG are dead because of all the whinning about time sink & grinding. You can't have an RPG world without inconvinience & thats why all the "MMORPG" coming out these days are borefest... they lost all identidy trying to cater to non fan of the genre.

So yeah, I can personnally identify with the OP... I never could get into GW because of the lack of progression. I tried, believe me, I did try. But, everytime I get to level cap, its not long before I loose the will to log in.

At least this time there's 80 lvl, its a real MMO and if I play, it'll be at release. Not being a fan of PvP didn't help either I guess.

My 2 coppers

Originally posted by EvilestTwin

Originally posted by SuperXero89

It's naive to think people will continue to play this game just because "it's fun."  LotRO, WAR, Rift, and SW:TOR were all "fun," but eventually players consumed the content and ran out of things to do.  Those players didn't stick around running the same content over and over again.  What was fun for awhile soon became boring.  I'm not sure GW2's dynamic events will be enough to make every experience completely unique.

If GW2 wants to be a game that can compete with WoW for a long-term playerbase, it has to have some sort of a hook.  That doesnt' mean the game "has" to have raid progression, but there has to be something that keeps GW2 players feeling compelled to log in aside from "just because it's fun."  Games like League of Legends, TF2, and Starcraft II have minimal character progression and little to no grind, but people keep coming back to those games because of their competitive nature. If in those games players did nothing but run BOT matches over and over, they wouldn't have lasted 1 month.  I suspect GW2's PvP will be fairly competitive, so that's going to attract a certain type of gamer, but I'll be interested to see how long it takes the average MMO gamer to burn through the PvE content and how quick the individual grows tired of the content.  PvE games need some sort of an artificial hook to keep people playing, and without one, I'm not sure the game will have longevity.

All of those games have a sub fee.   Even if you had your 100 hours of fun and the content stops, you can always come back and buy the expansion pack for more 'content'.

A-net made it clear from day 1 that GW2 is not going to be a game about end game raiding for loot/stat progression.   If you want to play that kind of a game, pretty much every other MMO on the market offers that.   GW2 offers something that no other MMO on the market offers to people who want it.

It doesn't have to be about endgame raiding for loot/stat progression, but it has to have some sort of a hook to keep the PvE players playing and thus buying items here and there from their cash shop.

Whether you realize it or not, what you are essentially saying is that Anet is not concerned with providing players with the same amount of content that they would find in a P2P MMORPG, and that because the game is free, we should treat it more like a single player game where you play for a couple months then let it collect dust until the newest DLC is released.

This game currently has an 8.74 rating on the hype meter.  Even if you think the hype meter is garbage, it's hard to deny that there's a crapload of people on these forums that are anticipating the release of this game. I, however, find it hard to believe that GW2 is going to be the game that the majority of this site really wants to play if what you say is true.  

Originally posted by SuperXero89

Originally posted by EvilestTwin

Originally posted by SuperXero89

It's naive to think people will continue to play this game just because "it's fun."  LotRO, WAR, Rift, and SW:TOR were all "fun," but eventually players consumed the content and ran out of things to do.  Those players didn't stick around running the same content over and over again.  What was fun for awhile soon became boring.  I'm not sure GW2's dynamic events will be enough to make every experience completely unique.

If GW2 wants to be a game that can compete with WoW for a long-term playerbase, it has to have some sort of a hook.  That doesnt' mean the game "has" to have raid progression, but there has to be something that keeps GW2 players feeling compelled to log in aside from "just because it's fun."  Games like League of Legends, TF2, and Starcraft II have minimal character progression and little to no grind, but people keep coming back to those games because of their competitive nature. If in those games players did nothing but run BOT matches over and over, they wouldn't have lasted 1 month.  I suspect GW2's PvP will be fairly competitive, so that's going to attract a certain type of gamer, but I'll be interested to see how long it takes the average MMO gamer to burn through the PvE content and how quick the individual grows tired of the content.  PvE games need some sort of an artificial hook to keep people playing, and without one, I'm not sure the game will have longevity.

All of those games have a sub fee.   Even if you had your 100 hours of fun and the content stops, you can always come back and buy the expansion pack for more 'content'.

A-net made it clear from day 1 that GW2 is not going to be a game about end game raiding for loot/stat progression.   If you want to play that kind of a game, pretty much every other MMO on the market offers that.   GW2 offers something that no other MMO on the market offers to people who want it.

It doesn't have to be about endgame raiding for loot/stat progression, but it has to have some sort of a hook to keep the PvE players playing and thus buying items here and there from their cash shop.

Whether you realize it or not, what you are essentially saying is that Anet is not concerned with providing players with the same amount of content that they would find in a P2P MMORPG, and that because the game is free, we should treat it more like a single player game where you play for a couple months then let it collect dust until the newest DLC is released.

This game currently has an 8.74 rating on the hype meter.  Even if you think the hype meter is garbage, it's hard to deny that there's a crapload of people on these forums that are anticipating the release of this game. I, however, find it hard to believe that GW2 is going to be the game that the majority of this site really wants to play if what you say is true.  

Pretty much this. Well said Xero.

Originally posted by SuperXero89

Originally posted by EvilestTwin

Originally posted by SuperXero89

It's naive to think people will continue to play this game just because "it's fun."  LotRO, WAR, Rift, and SW:TOR were all "fun," but eventually players consumed the content and ran out of things to do.  Those players didn't stick around running the same content over and over again.  What was fun for awhile soon became boring.  I'm not sure GW2's dynamic events will be enough to make every experience completely unique.

If GW2 wants to be a game that can compete with WoW for a long-term playerbase, it has to have some sort of a hook.  That doesnt' mean the game "has" to have raid progression, but there has to be something that keeps GW2 players feeling compelled to log in aside from "just because it's fun."  Games like League of Legends, TF2, and Starcraft II have minimal character progression and little to no grind, but people keep coming back to those games because of their competitive nature. If in those games players did nothing but run BOT matches over and over, they wouldn't have lasted 1 month.  I suspect GW2's PvP will be fairly competitive, so that's going to attract a certain type of gamer, but I'll be interested to see how long it takes the average MMO gamer to burn through the PvE content and how quick the individual grows tired of the content.  PvE games need some sort of an artificial hook to keep people playing, and without one, I'm not sure the game will have longevity.

All of those games have a sub fee.   Even if you had your 100 hours of fun and the content stops, you can always come back and buy the expansion pack for more 'content'.

A-net made it clear from day 1 that GW2 is not going to be a game about end game raiding for loot/stat progression.   If you want to play that kind of a game, pretty much every other MMO on the market offers that.   GW2 offers something that no other MMO on the market offers to people who want it.

It doesn't have to be about endgame raiding for loot/stat progression, but it has to have some sort of a hook to keep the PvE players playing and thus buying items here and there from their cash shop.

Whether you realize it or not, what you are essentially saying is that Anet is not concerned with providing players with the same amount of content that they would find in a P2P MMORPG, and that because the game is free, we should treat it more like a single player game where you play for a couple months then let it collect dust until the newest DLC is released.

This game currently has an 8.74 rating on the hype meter. Even if you think the hype meter is garbage, it's hard to deny that there's a crapload of people on these forums that are anticipating the release of this game. I, however, find it hard to believe that GW2 is going to be the game that the majority of this site really wants to play if what you say is true.

In GW1, you could hit max level, have the best equipment, and have all stats maxed in about 5 hours.   Yet a lot of people still play the PvE and the cash shop is quite profitable.   I still log on during big events and I'm surprised at how many people buy the various costumes and other cash shop items they've released.   

There's quite a bit of achievement grind for people who want to grind in GW1.   They offer no tangible benefits but they do display under your name.   They've already shown that they have a system in place for that in GW2, so people who like to trophy/achievement grind for their console games will probably enjoy doing that.   Not to mention there are daily achievements that give bonus gold/exp for completion.   

Then there's vanity items.   The rares ones will be rare enough that people who want that bit of prestige will want to grind their hours away trying to buy it/obtain it.  GW1 had the same item system where maxed stat'ed items were fairly easy to get, but rare skinned items could incredible amounts of gold.   

Regarding those other p2p MMOs.  How many of them involve running the same 3-4 raids over and over again at endgame to justify their subscription fee?  I personally don't consider that end-game content at all.   A lot of people ARE tired of that model of 'endgame raiding'.   The fact that GW1 was so successful and the hype meter for GW2 is so big proves that there is a big enough market of MMO players who are tired of that model.   Maybe they just want to go on occasionally to hang out with their friends or check out a new DE.    With a sub model, they might feel they're not getting their money's worth if that's all they do, but with no subs, there's no pressure of 'maximizing' their subscription value.   

Look at how many people have quite the recent flock of P2P MMO's because they felt there was no end game content.   So obviously just being P2P doesn't guarantee any kind of long term content.  

Originally posted by DeaconX

The fact that this question is even being asked shows how much damage has been done to the idea of MMORPG's.

My answer is fun as well.

It's not just MMORPGs - progression systems have been a part of RPGs since the earliest pen&paper games.  It's a defining characteristic of the genre, that the character gains skill (or wealth, or something), as opposed to the player, ala more action oriented games.  

In terms of MMOs, it's probably related to how the genre is moving away from being strictly RPG oriented, as we're seeing more MMO action games, where progression isn't as important, the same way it was never important in your typical deathmatch shooter.  Even then, I'm not sure how well that plays out, when players expect a persistent character and world, which was never an issue in lobby games.  

Even more so with GW2, as it appears to be very much a RPG, more than an action game.  So I'm not really sure how well it'll do in the long run, to bank on player skill, and the fun factor therein, instead of character progression.  That "carrot" is central to the fun of most RPGs.  For me at least, and I'm inclined to say for most RPG players, but of course, guess we'll see about that.

I"m going to have to agree "fun and enjoyment'.

Most of society seems to be set up with "rewards" as a reason to do something. However, there is a mode of thought that doing something for the inherent joy of doing it is the best reward.

Originally posted by Sketch420

 

Guild wars 2 is about buying gems with real life money and then exchanging them for unfair advantages and to look cooler than everyone who isnt rich.

 

Why were people  happy about eve having 80$ monocles? Rich people like to rub it in that they are rich to feel like they are better than those who cant afford to spend as much money gaming.

 

Guild wars 2 will cater to the extreamly rich who want to feel and look more important than people less wealthy than themselves.

And when i'm teabagging their corpse in WvW  i'll be lol'n

Like with any game. You game for the fun. People nowadays seems to treat the game as work "what do I get if I do this? Not enough, need a raise!". If you need a carrot to play, then you probably shouldnt play it.

Originally posted by Sketch420

 

Guild wars 2 is about buying gems with real life money and then exchanging them for unfair advantages and to look cooler than everyone who isnt rich.

 

Why were people  happy about eve having 80$ monocles? Rich people like to rub it in that they are rich to feel like they are better than those who cant afford to spend as much money gaming.

 

Guild wars 2 will cater to the extreamly rich who want to feel and look more important than people less wealthy than themselves.

You just made me laught so hard, go cry under a bridge plz.

I will spend my money on good looking stuff because I want to. No monthly fees for me = buying stuff I want

Originally posted by omegadethh7

Fun and enjoyment

Agree totatally =)

Does there have to be a carrot? Does a good book need a carrot? Does a good film need a carrot? Does a good game need a carrot? The answer to all of these is most obviously: No. I've never felt a need to have something enforce an artificial compulsion to make me see something through.

Here's a quotable for you: If your game needs a carrot to make it fun, your game is broken.

 Question: If guild wars 2 is not about the Items/Gear or the levels then what is the carrot

Awnser: Fun

like all good PvP games, the carrot is the satisfaction of grinding your enemies into the dust beneath your heels...  or something like that

Depends who you ask:

- Some ppl will treat and grind cosmetic outfits & titles as carrots

- Some will do same for e-sport thing. Server ranking or whatever there will be

- Some just for fun 

etc 

Actually not that diffrent from stat-gear based carrot. 

Just more e-sporty.

It is better or worse?

Neither. Just diffrent.

For some ppl better , for some worse and for some it does not matter / change much.

Originally posted by Dream_Chaser

Does there have to be a carrot? Does a good book need a carrot? Does a good film need a carrot? Does a good game need a carrot? The answer to all of these is most obviously: No. I've never felt a need to have something enforce an artificial compulsion to make me see something through.

Here's a quotable for you: If your game needs a carrot to make it fun, your game is broken.

Sadly, thats not how the MMO world works. Even if is cosmetic, or just a prestig thing, players want a reward at some point. And thats why GW2 have rewards too, and a ¨GRIND¨ like everysingle MMO before them. And the competitive pvp is also a ¨carrot¨ in gw, like LoL or any other Dota MMO. i cant wait for the beta, to see how good or bad is this game for myself but i have a strong feeling that it ill be more like a 2nd game for most of the MMO players.

Originally posted by Demogorgon

Originally posted by Badgered86

The entire premise of the OP shows just how conditioned most people (especially MMO gamers) are.  The point of MMOs (and games in general) is not to grind something, it's to have fun.  Grinding is a tool used by subscription-based games to prolong the amount of time you will spend playing so as to generate more revenue from subscription fees.

Thats a big load of bs.

Grinding = progression and has been the heart of RPG since its inception, questing being its soul.

Only since WoW I've started to hear that word thrown left and right. You know why? Because the genre is now full of non rpg gamers that came to a genre not fit for their gaming need just because they saw a commercial on tv and heard it was the next big thing. MMORPG are dead because of all the whinning about time sink & grinding. You can't have an RPG world without inconvinience & thats why all the "MMORPG" coming out these days are borefest... they lost all identidy trying to cater to non fan of the genre.

So yeah, I can personnally identify with the OP... I never could get into GW because of the lack of progression. I tried, believe me, I did try. But, everytime I get to level cap, its not long before I loose the will to log in.

At least this time there's 80 lvl, its a real MMO and if I play, it'll be at release. Not being a fan of PvP didn't help either I guess.

My 2 coppers

 

Grinding is a video game concept, not a RPG concept. I can guarantee that most people playing Dungeons and Dragons pen and paper did not go out and kill 1000 wolves just to 'ding' to the next experience level. It was about the journey and adventure, you got experience for doing all sorts of things, not just killing. GW2 makes the whole world its adventure. The 'carrot' is to go see all the world and help its citizens in dynamic events. Then you can help out your realm in the Mists.

Most RPG's have a 'cap' where your character no longer progresses in power. You can then either go explore the world at maximum power or you can make a new character.

GW1 had plenty of content for completionists and achievement chasers. But people who just wanted to see the story could finish the game in a month or two and then hibernate / pvp until the next expansion drops. I dont see why GW2 will be any different.

Not just PvP that will be a big thing ofc.

But well it is called Guild Wars for a reason so i guess GvG will be a big thing