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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » Mike O'Brien (ArenaNet founder) on microtransactions

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656 posts found
  Madimorga

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/26/10
Posts: 1997

3/20/12 8:07:37 PM#501
Originally posted by MwynForever
 

That's a thought, I wonder if silence can be bought with gems? At the very least they should be polite at all times!

I still haven't figured out whether I'm going to be one of the lackeys or the resident rich witches, but if I lackey it up, I am definitely charging extra for being polite! 

I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

~Albert Einstein

  BlahTeeb

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/01/09
Posts: 628

3/20/12 8:12:10 PM#502
Originally posted by Madimorga
Originally posted by silvermember
Originally posted by Madimorga
Originally posted by fiontar
...

Remember that Gems don't create new Gold in the economy. There is no vendor that pays you Gold for a Gem. If you sel a Gem, it's to other players via the Marketplace and that gold already exists in the economy.

True in theory.  In practice people who would otherwise not have spent extra time farming extra gold will do so in hopes of buying cash shop items with gold instead of with real money.  Thus creating a system with more gold in circulation than would otherwise have existed.

 

If the devs correct for this by making farming the gold more time consuming it will simply annoy people who had no intention of buying cash shop items for gold but were planning on spending their gold on in game items, since they, too, will have to farm longer to get the gold they need.  This of coruse assumes there is gold or items that can be sold for gold to farm for, but if there are not, then there is no use for diamonds, or for a player economy, for that matter.

ppl grind all the time to get what they want, unless you want them to turn off farming? How does your first paragraph make any logical sense to you?

all gems do is redistribute gold, it does not create gold, somebody had to have farm the gold. 

Well, I know that if this change goes through, I'll see it as a challenge to farm gold and let other players buy me everything rather than spend money in the cash shop, so I'll be contributing more gold to circulation than I otherwise would have.  I expect I'm not the only one with this attitude.  Meanwhile, gold buyers who might have done without rather than farm it themselves will continue to fund other players.  Because that's just how people are.  Net result:  More gold in circulation.

This goes both ways. There are a lot of people who would pay gems for an armor than farm for it. Lots of people are willing to fork over a few bucks for gear. This causes less farming overall, even if just a bit.

 

However, people who are willing to farm for gems are already farming for gold. Gems doesn't make someone farm more, it just gives them a different reason and option to farm. Gems will lower farming. If you are willing to farm for gold for gems for gear, then you are already wiling to farm for gold for gear. So in the end, gems should lower farming and gold circulation.

  User Deleted
3/20/12 8:17:10 PM#503
Originally posted by Madimorga
Originally posted by MwynForever
 

That's a thought, I wonder if silence can be bought with gems? At the very least they should be polite at all times!

I still haven't figured out whether I'm going to be one of the lackeys or the resident rich witches, but if I lackey it up, I am definitely charging extra for being polite! 

I won't be hiring you then :P

But seriously I've just been sitting here thinking about this. Anyone who has played GW1 knows the players themselves made an alternative currency. Ectos. Ectos have  a gold value of sorts, set by the player base itself. They aren't easy to get, much harder then gold and depending on how you like to spend your time in game, there are for some, more enjoyable ways to get something that someone with ecto's might want in exchange. I have seen items for sale in exchange for x amount of gold, or x amount of ectos. Sometimes people want to buy ectos for gold and not an item, and sometimes people want to sell ectos for gold and not an item. Depends. There are such huge variations and this while it may seem wildly complicated if you have no idea what I'm talking about, works. Especially as the amount of gold you are allowed to keep is limited. Ectos can be stored instead of gold, rather like gold bullion I suppose in a bank vault. I don't think gems will have the same effect as ectos as the prices will fluctuate far too much depending on supply. In the end, gems I can assure you are far less painful to get then ectos for example. So will players make another currency again as they did in GW1? I wouldn't doubt it. Gems may not be the be all end all that people expect them to be beyond the ability to buy vanity items. You may find yourself having to pay your lackeys with something other then gems OR gold

  Madimorga

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/26/10
Posts: 1997

3/20/12 8:18:47 PM#504
Originally posted by BlahTeeb
Originally posted by Madimorga
Originally posted by silvermember
Originally posted by Madimorga
Originally posted by fiontar
...

Remember that Gems don't create new Gold in the economy. There is no vendor that pays you Gold for a Gem. If you sel a Gem, it's to other players via the Marketplace and that gold already exists in the economy.

True in theory.  In practice people who would otherwise not have spent extra time farming extra gold will do so in hopes of buying cash shop items with gold instead of with real money.  Thus creating a system with more gold in circulation than would otherwise have existed.

 

If the devs correct for this by making farming the gold more time consuming it will simply annoy people who had no intention of buying cash shop items for gold but were planning on spending their gold on in game items, since they, too, will have to farm longer to get the gold they need.  This of coruse assumes there is gold or items that can be sold for gold to farm for, but if there are not, then there is no use for diamonds, or for a player economy, for that matter.

ppl grind all the time to get what they want, unless you want them to turn off farming? How does your first paragraph make any logical sense to you?

all gems do is redistribute gold, it does not create gold, somebody had to have farm the gold. 

Well, I know that if this change goes through, I'll see it as a challenge to farm gold and let other players buy me everything rather than spend money in the cash shop, so I'll be contributing more gold to circulation than I otherwise would have.  I expect I'm not the only one with this attitude.  Meanwhile, gold buyers who might have done without rather than farm it themselves will continue to fund other players.  Because that's just how people are.  Net result:  More gold in circulation.

This goes both ways. There are a lot of people who would pay gems for an armor than farm for it. Lots of people are willing to fork over a few bucks for gear. This causes less farming overall, even if just a bit.

 

However, people who are willing to farm for gems are already farming for gold. Gems doesn't make someone farm more, it just gives them a different reason and option to farm. Gems will lower farming. If you are willing to farm for gold for gems for gear, then you are already wiling to farm for gold for gear. So in the end, gems should lower farming and gold circulation.

Hm.  Not necessarily.  There is a psychological drive to get something for nothing involved now that isn't there when it comes to farming for gear.  Now if I farm enough, I'm a clever gamer pulling one over on the system by getting someone else to buy my DLC goodies for me with their real cash.

 

I'm not young, nor overly stupid.  I even know myself well enough to state the issue, yet it will still affect my farming patterns.  I have no reason to think I'm going to be the only one.

I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

~Albert Einstein

  Foncl

Novice Member

Joined: 11/14/11
Posts: 186

3/20/12 8:19:42 PM#505

Well that sucks, anything that costs gold can be bought for money then, same thing as Diablo 3 RMAH really except gems instead of Blizzard bucks. It's not a gamebreaker and I understand their motives for doing it but the game would be alot better if anything that affects a characters power in any way couldn't be bought with RL money.

 

I would be fine with vanity items for money but gear for money takes away the achievement of players who actually put in the effort to earn the items ingame themselves.  Only way I wouldn't mind this is if anyone who buys gems get a big $ sign hovering over their head at all times, so everyone knows he/she/it paid to win.

  whisperwynd

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/22/06
Posts: 1365

Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the priviledge to do so as well.

3/20/12 8:23:22 PM#506
Originally posted by Madimorga

Hm.  Not necessarily.  There is a psychological drive to get something for nothing involved now that isn't there when it comes to farming for gear.  Now if I farm enough, I'm a clever gamer pulling one over on the system by getting someone else to buy my DLC goodies for me with their real cash.

 

I'm not young, nor overly stupid.  I even know myself well enough to state the issue, yet it will still affect my farming patterns.  I have no reason to think I'm going to be the only one.

True, but the gem/ingame system isn't the reason you would do this. You already had it in mind to achieve wealth through shortcuts. Farming anything can be lucrative, like you said, just need to be smart about it.

I don't see this as being 'abused' in the way you presume to the detriment of gameplay since again, without the gear, what is purchasable that's extraordinary?

  Creslin321

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 5424

3/20/12 8:24:12 PM#507
Originally posted by Yizle
Originally posted by austriacus
Originally posted by Madimorga

You know why D3 doesn't bother me and this does?  Because the way D3 is going to work, I think a bunch of first world wannabe gold farmers are going to drive prices on individual items so ridiculously low that it will be nearly impossible for gold farmers to make a profit.

 

But GW2 isn't going to be about individual items put up by players for real money.  It's about taking real money and turning it into currency to buy GW2 items with.  Same as it's always been for the gold farmers, they'll mostly sell gold completely outside the system (except maybe for a little diamond speculation on the side), and no doubt they'll also dabble in jacking up AH prices and creating scarcity of goods so supply drives demand.

 

 

The difference is that D3 is a gear grind, GW2 is not. Why do you keep asuming the game is WoW?

Because most of these whiners are either 1) too stupid to understand the game and the system or 2) just annoying trolls trying to start probs.

I don't really understand why so many people don't get why this announcement can be considered a "bad" thing.

Prior to this announcement, the community was (at large) under the impression that RMT would be used for mainly cosmetic or convenience items, and you would NOT be able to buy power.

Now we find that RMT can be used to (indirectly) buy gold.  So this means either gold can't be used to buy power (which means the game will not have much of an economy), or RMT CAN be used to buy power.

Just putting a "layer" in-between real money and the auction house doesn't really change anything.  You can STILL buy anything on the auction house for real money.

Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  thoreau

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/04/05
Posts: 85

3/20/12 8:25:18 PM#508

OLD SYSTEM: Gold factories farmed gold and sold it for dollars.

NEW SYSTEM: Gold factores farm gold, trade it for gems, sell gems for dollars.

 

This is better?

  Madimorga

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/26/10
Posts: 1997

3/20/12 8:27:01 PM#509
Originally posted by MwynForever
Originally posted by Madimorga
Originally posted by MwynForever
 

That's a thought, I wonder if silence can be bought with gems? At the very least they should be polite at all times!

I still haven't figured out whether I'm going to be one of the lackeys or the resident rich witches, but if I lackey it up, I am definitely charging extra for being polite! 

I won't be hiring you then :P

But seriously I've just been sitting here thinking about this. Anyone who has played GW1 knows the players themselves made an alternative currency. Ectos. Ectos have  a gold value of sorts, set by the player base itself. They aren't easy to get, much harder then gold and depending on how you like to spend your time in game, there are for some, more enjoyable ways to get something that someone with ecto's might want in exchange. I have seen items for sale in exchange for x amount of gold, or x amount of ectos. Sometimes people want to buy ectos for gold and not an item, and sometimes people want to sell ectos for gold and not an item. Depends. There are such huge variations and this while it may seem wildly complicated if you have no idea what I'm talking about, works. Especially as the amount of gold you are allowed to keep is limited. Ectos can be stored instead of gold, rather like gold bullion I suppose in a bank vault. I don't think gems will have the same effect as ectos as the prices will fluctuate far too much depending on supply. In the end, gems I can assure you are far less painful to get then ectos for example. So will players make another currency again as they did in GW1? I wouldn't doubt it. Gems may not be the be all end all that people expect them to be beyond the ability to buy vanity items. You may find yourself having to pay your lackeys with something other then gems OR gold

I have no idea what Ectos are, I actually never said one word to anyone in Guild Wars.  It was more isolating than even I cared for. I had no clue how to go about being social, given that everything I did was in my own instance, not counting trips to town and I also had no desire to join a guild.

 

  But you make a good point.  There is no telling how players are going to react to this situation.  What if very few people are willing to purchase diamonds to exchange for gold or services?  What if they demand such a high price that it isn't worth it to cater to them even if they are willing to trade?

I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

~Albert Einstein

  Madimorga

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/26/10
Posts: 1997

3/20/12 8:29:26 PM#510
Originally posted by whisperwynd
Originally posted by Madimorga

Hm.  Not necessarily.  There is a psychological drive to get something for nothing involved now that isn't there when it comes to farming for gear.  Now if I farm enough, I'm a clever gamer pulling one over on the system by getting someone else to buy my DLC goodies for me with their real cash.

 

I'm not young, nor overly stupid.  I even know myself well enough to state the issue, yet it will still affect my farming patterns.  I have no reason to think I'm going to be the only one.

True, but the gem/ingame system isn't the reason you would do this. You already had it in mind to achieve wealth through shortcuts. Farming anything can be lucrative, like you said, just need to be smart about it.

I don't see this as being 'abused' in the way you presume to the detriment of gameplay since again, without the gear, what is purchasable that's extraordinary?

Services can be purchased if nothing else.  As long as the buyer is willing to pay enough to interest the seller, leveling services, help with pvp, help with item acquisition (assuming any items are worth acquiring) is just a few diamonds away.

I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

~Albert Einstein

  st4t1ck

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/24/10
Posts: 573

3/20/12 8:30:15 PM#511
Originally posted by elliottalb

Well this is just one mor reason for me to stick with SWTOR. Bioware is clearly a supperior game company and they make better games.

 

At least they don't pull any of this shady microtransaction stuff. You pay for the game and your sub and you get access to their games. No strings attached and no shady business. You just lost a potential customer Arenanet. I'll stick with Bioware- an honest company- thank you very much.

lmao.  Really thats what you come up with

  st4t1ck

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/24/10
Posts: 573

3/20/12 8:32:13 PM#512
Originally posted by thoreau

OLD SYSTEM: Gold factories farmed gold and sold it for dollars.

NEW SYSTEM: Gold factores farm gold, trade it for gems, sell gems for dollars.

 

This is better?

how do you sell gems for dollars.. you cant sell them back to anet, and if your gonna buy gems why not just buy from anet, why trust a gold seller

  Khole

Novice Member

Joined: 9/20/10
Posts: 138

3/20/12 8:33:35 PM#513
Originally posted by st4t1ck
Originally posted by thoreau

OLD SYSTEM: Gold factories farmed gold and sold it for dollars.

NEW SYSTEM: Gold factores farm gold, trade it for gems, sell gems for dollars.

 

This is better?

how do you sell gems for dollars.. you cant sell them back to anet, and if your gonna buy gems why not just buy from anet, why trust a gold seller

Gold sellers farm gold--> use gold to buy gems from players --> Sell gems on website for cash = PROFIT!!!

  thoreau

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/04/05
Posts: 85

3/20/12 8:34:50 PM#514
Originally posted by st4t1ck
Originally posted by thoreau

OLD SYSTEM: Gold factories farmed gold and sold it for dollars.

NEW SYSTEM: Gold factores farm gold, trade it for gems, sell gems for dollars.

 

This is better?

how do you sell gems for dollars.. you cant sell them back to anet, and if your gonna buy gems why not just buy from anet, why trust a gold seller

Because they will be cheaper.

Never underestimate what people will do to save a dollar.

Third party sellers will pop up selling gems just like third party sellers exist now selling gold.

  st4t1ck

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/24/10
Posts: 573

3/20/12 8:35:59 PM#515
Originally posted by Creslin321
Originally posted by Yizle
Originally posted by austriacus
Originally posted by Madimorga

You know why D3 doesn't bother me and this does?  Because the way D3 is going to work, I think a bunch of first world wannabe gold farmers are going to drive prices on individual items so ridiculously low that it will be nearly impossible for gold farmers to make a profit.

 

But GW2 isn't going to be about individual items put up by players for real money.  It's about taking real money and turning it into currency to buy GW2 items with.  Same as it's always been for the gold farmers, they'll mostly sell gold completely outside the system (except maybe for a little diamond speculation on the side), and no doubt they'll also dabble in jacking up AH prices and creating scarcity of goods so supply drives demand.

 

 

The difference is that D3 is a gear grind, GW2 is not. Why do you keep asuming the game is WoW?

Because most of these whiners are either 1) too stupid to understand the game and the system or 2) just annoying trolls trying to start probs.

I don't really understand why so many people don't get why this announcement can be considered a "bad" thing.

Prior to this announcement, the community was (at large) under the impression that RMT would be used for mainly cosmetic or convenience items, and you would NOT be able to buy power.

Now we find that RMT can be used to (indirectly) buy gold.  So this means either gold can't be used to buy power (which means the game will not have much of an economy), or RMT CAN be used to buy power.

Just putting a "layer" in-between real money and the auction house doesn't really change anything.  You can STILL buy anything on the auction house for real money.

yes you can buy anything thats not more powerfull then anything i can get.  In guild wars 1 they pretty much handed you every upgrade of armor you could get stat wise via the craft system.  so everytime there was something with better stats you could easily get it at the level it was available.

  st4t1ck

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/24/10
Posts: 573

3/20/12 8:37:33 PM#516
Originally posted by thoreau
Originally posted by st4t1ck
Originally posted by thoreau

OLD SYSTEM: Gold factories farmed gold and sold it for dollars.

NEW SYSTEM: Gold factores farm gold, trade it for gems, sell gems for dollars.

 

This is better?

how do you sell gems for dollars.. you cant sell them back to anet, and if your gonna buy gems why not just buy from anet, why trust a gold seller

Because they will be cheaper.

Never underestimate what people will do to save a dollar.

Third party sellers will pop up selling gems just like third party sellers exist now selling gold.

why use a third party though.  Third party sellers only pop up now because you cant buy gold legitimatly

  User Deleted
3/20/12 8:41:47 PM#517
Originally posted by Madimorga
Originally posted by whisperwynd
Originally posted by Madimorga

Hm.  Not necessarily.  There is a psychological drive to get something for nothing involved now that isn't there when it comes to farming for gear.  Now if I farm enough, I'm a clever gamer pulling one over on the system by getting someone else to buy my DLC goodies for me with their real cash.

 

I'm not young, nor overly stupid.  I even know myself well enough to state the issue, yet it will still affect my farming patterns.  I have no reason to think I'm going to be the only one.

True, but the gem/ingame system isn't the reason you would do this. You already had it in mind to achieve wealth through shortcuts. Farming anything can be lucrative, like you said, just need to be smart about it.

I don't see this as being 'abused' in the way you presume to the detriment of gameplay since again, without the gear, what is purchasable that's extraordinary?

Services can be purchased if nothing else.  As long as the buyer is willing to pay enough to interest the seller, leveling services, help with pvp, help with item acquisition (assuming any items are worth acquiring) is just a few diamonds away.

Really they will be wasting their time. They would have to pay someone to play their character forever. Remember, gear doesn't matter. Everyone top level will have the same basic armor stat as you at least in whatever proffession you happen to be in. Wherever you go in the game, you will be scaled down. So you won't be able to go around easily and kill things in the beginner areas with the ease you would be able to in other games. (this will make farming gold for gold farmers harder too :P ) SO now you have payed someone to level your character to 80 and you are stuck with a character you don't know how to play at ALL. You can't go anywhere without dying because you don't know what to do with your skills, you feel pretty lame. Same again for pvp. Don't forget you can join pvp at the very beginning of the game and be scaled up. I can promise you now that SOMEONE with a very low level toon who knows how to play will at some point join in pvp, get scaled up and beat the crap out of your payed for leveling service toon all the time HE is wearing crappy low level gear because just such a senario is possible in GW2. Now you will feel like a complete tool for paying a gold/leveling farmer right?

P.S. When I say YOU I don't mean you. I have come to think you are a pretty cool dude Madimorga so don't take it personal :D

  evicton

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/21/11
Posts: 399

3/20/12 8:43:25 PM#518
Originally posted by st4t1ck
Originally posted by thoreau
Originally posted by st4t1ck
Originally posted by thoreau

OLD SYSTEM: Gold factories farmed gold and sold it for dollars.

NEW SYSTEM: Gold factores farm gold, trade it for gems, sell gems for dollars.

 

This is better?

how do you sell gems for dollars.. you cant sell them back to anet, and if your gonna buy gems why not just buy from anet, why trust a gold seller

Because they will be cheaper.

Never underestimate what people will do to save a dollar.

Third party sellers will pop up selling gems just like third party sellers exist now selling gold.

why use a third party though.  Third party sellers only pop up now because you cant buy gold legitimatly

Because it will be cheaper, just like there are still companies that sell isk even though you can buy it via flex. 

  Madimorga

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/26/10
Posts: 1997

3/20/12 8:48:04 PM#519
Originally posted by MwynForever
 

Really they will be wasting their time. They would have to pay someone to play their character forever. Remember, gear doesn't matter. Everyone top level will have the same basic armor stat as you at least in whatever proffession you happen to be in. Wherever you go in the game, you will be scaled down. So you won't be able to go around easily and kill things in the beginner areas with the ease you would be able to in other games. (this will make farming gold for gold farmers harder too :P ) SO now you have payed someone to level your character to 80 and you are stuck with a character you don't know how to play at ALL. You can't go anywhere without dying because you don't know what to do with your skills, you feel pretty lame. Same again for pvp. Don't forget you can join pvp at the very beginning of the game and be scaled up. I can promise you now that SOMEONE with a very low level toon who knows how to play will at some point join in pvp, get scaled up and beat the crap out of your payed for leveling service toon all the time HE is wearing crappy low level gear because just such a senario is possible in GW2. Now you will feel like a complete tool for paying a gold/leveling farmer right?

P.S. When I say YOU I don't mean you. I have come to think you are a pretty cool dude Madimorga so don't take it personal :D

Actually, I figure letting someone play your character will still be frowned on.  I was thinking about dungeon parties, pvp team fills, and maybe WvWvW mercs (for real, I could see this happening from time to time during off hours), plus any items that are worth having while leveling but that do not drop frequently (if such will exist). 

 

I don't take it personally, though, I knew you were speaking in general.  Even though you have made an incorrect assumption about my gender!

I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

~Albert Einstein

  st4t1ck

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/24/10
Posts: 573

3/20/12 8:52:22 PM#520
Originally posted by evicton
Originally posted by st4t1ck
Originally posted by thoreau
Originally posted by st4t1ck
Originally posted by thoreau

OLD SYSTEM: Gold factories farmed gold and sold it for dollars.

NEW SYSTEM: Gold factores farm gold, trade it for gems, sell gems for dollars.

 

This is better?

how do you sell gems for dollars.. you cant sell them back to anet, and if your gonna buy gems why not just buy from anet, why trust a gold seller

Because they will be cheaper.

Never underestimate what people will do to save a dollar.

Third party sellers will pop up selling gems just like third party sellers exist now selling gold.

why use a third party though.  Third party sellers only pop up now because you cant buy gold legitimatly

Because it will be cheaper, just like there are still companies that sell isk even though you can buy it via flex. 

if thats the case then gold sellers are gonna be there no matter what, and you wont know who bought gold. and everything that everyone is complaing about being p2w will just happen anyway because those people will pay real money for gold from gold farmers.

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