Originally posted by MwynForever

Originally posted by Madimorga

Originally posted by MwynForever

 

I'm not worried about PvP at all. I'm a long time GW1 player. Yes it's a different game, but I grew accustomed long since that having the right skill, top gear and top level does NOT mean you have a clue what you should do with it. As I think someone posted a link, my one worry about PvP was the seige engines. The ONLY part of that which can be bought with gold is the plans themselves. The rest of it must be built with supplies that are gathered throughout the world. So yea not worried honestly! I don't know how all of this talk of gold sellers and people buying gold from gold sellers makes NCSoft or Arena Net bad guys? Surely the people to blame are people who buy/sell the gold illegally and this happens in games everywhere sadly. And I disagree with a post above forget which, that says this will make it worse because it makes the whole gold seller thing legal. Not true.

It's true that the most concrete issue is things like the siege engine blueprints costing gold.  There may be other advantages obtainable in pvp with gold that should be looked at too, who knows?  Hopefully the devs will take another look at their setup in light of their diamond idea. 

 

It certainly makes things more complicated and uncertain.

I think you misunderstood my meaning. Seige engine plans will cost a SMALL amount of gold. Honestly if someone is SO lazy that they have to spend real life money to buy gold to buy a set of plans that they could easily have gotten in 10 or 20 minutes of play time, they have LITTLE HOPE of actually doing anything with the plans. Plans themselves do not a seige engine make.

Well, I might have misunderstood the first post I read on it, which led me to believe that it required gold each time to create a siege engine.  Are you saying the blue prints are reusable by the player who purchases them?  Or do they have a limited number of uses?  Because that would affect how serious this issue is.  Small costs during long fights could add up, but obviously not if it's a buy it once for a small cost and have it forever.

Originally posted by Madimorga

Well, I might have misunderstood the first post I read on it, which led me to believe that it required gold each time to create a siege engine.  Are you saying the blue prints are reusable by the player who purchases them?  Or do they have a limited number of uses?  Because that would affect how serious this issue is.  Small costs during long fights could add up, but obviously not if it's a buy it once for a small cost and have it forever.

Even if they were used up they still need resources which are only found in that PvP instance so having spent X amount of dollars for those 100 blueprints will get you nowhere fast if your server doesn't have the resources to build them.

Originally posted by whisperwynd

Originally posted by Madimorga

Well, I might have misunderstood the first post I read on it, which led me to believe that it required gold each time to create a siege engine.  Are you saying the blue prints are reusable by the player who purchases them?  Or do they have a limited number of uses?  Because that would affect how serious this issue is.  Small costs during long fights could add up, but obviously not if it's a buy it once for a small cost and have it forever.

Even if they were used up they still need resources which are only found in that PvP instance so having spent X amount of dollars for those 100 blueprints will get you nowhere fast if your server doesn't have the resources to build them.

Well yes, but let's say, to keep it simple, your guild has 10 players.  Either all 10 can gather resources while you use your diamond-bought gold to buy blueprints, or 9 can gather and 1 can go out and farm money for the blueprints, leaving you down one player.  Minor example, but it could make a difference.  Depending again, on cost of blueprints and how many siege engines you can make in a short amount of time with those gathered materials.

Originally posted by Madimorga

Originally posted by whisperwynd

Originally posted by Madimorga

Well, I might have misunderstood the first post I read on it, which led me to believe that it required gold each time to create a siege engine.  Are you saying the blue prints are reusable by the player who purchases them?  Or do they have a limited number of uses?  Because that would affect how serious this issue is.  Small costs during long fights could add up, but obviously not if it's a buy it once for a small cost and have it forever.

Even if they were used up they still need resources which are only found in that PvP instance so having spent X amount of dollars for those 100 blueprints will get you nowhere fast if your server doesn't have the resources to build them.

Well yes, but let's say, to keep it simple, your guild has 10 players.  Either all 10 can gather resources while you use your diamond-bought gold to buy blueprints, or 9 can gather and 1 can go out and farm money for the blueprints, leaving you down one player.  Minor example, but it could make a difference.  Depending again, on cost of blueprints and how many siege engines you can make in a short amount of time with those gathered materials.

As the blueprints are a small amount of gold surely you will have that gold already before you arrive? No need to farm it. I plan to be prepared at any rate I don't know about anyone else :P. Also don't forget, these seige engines get reset every 2 weeks minimum, I imagine you'd really be sad if you spent real life money for plans and the other side destroyed your seige engine in the first couple of minutes.

Originally posted by Madimorga

Well, I might have misunderstood the first post I read on it, which led me to believe that it required gold each time to create a siege engine.  Are you saying the blue prints are reusable by the player who purchases them?  Or do they have a limited number of uses?  Because that would affect how serious this issue is.  Small costs during long fights could add up, but obviously not if it's a buy it once for a small cost and have it forever.

Keep in mind there's a bottleneck to this. Lert's just say, hypothetically, that BPs are one-shot. You have to keep buying them to make engines. and let's just say you get yourself a p2w player that buys a ton of gems, sells them for gold, and uses the gold to buy plans.

He can only build engines as fast as his guild can farm resources. And also keep in mind battles will, if they go as currently planned, last weeks.

So 

1) His hundreds of BPs stored up are just gonna collect dust since I'm sure resources will be finite.

2) meanwhile, given the length of time needed to farm resources, a non p2w guild can also be farming gold in game and buy as many BPs as they needed.

All of this depends very heavily on the number of uses a bp gets, its cost in gold, the amount of gold a gem becomes worth based on other players' supply and demand on the market, how easy it is to earn gold in-game, and how how it takes to farm engine resources. But it seems to me it would take a very specific set of circumstances for a p2w type to dominate seiges via gold buying. And LOADS of potential circumstances in which he'd have little or no gain over a non-p2w player.

Fairly encouraging, but as we both said there's a lot of factors that will need to be considered.

Originally posted by Madimorga

Originally posted by whisperwynd

Originally posted by Madimorga

Well, I might have misunderstood the first post I read on it, which led me to believe that it required gold each time to create a siege engine.  Are you saying the blue prints are reusable by the player who purchases them?  Or do they have a limited number of uses?  Because that would affect how serious this issue is.  Small costs during long fights could add up, but obviously not if it's a buy it once for a small cost and have it forever.

Even if they were used up they still need resources which are only found in that PvP instance so having spent X amount of dollars for those 100 blueprints will get you nowhere fast if your server doesn't have the resources to build them.

Well yes, but let's say, to keep it simple, your guild has 10 players.  Either all 10 can gather resources while you use your diamond-bought gold to buy blueprints, or 9 can gather and 1 can go out and farm money for the blueprints, leaving you down one player.  Minor example, but it could make a difference.  Depending again, on cost of blueprints and how many siege engines you can make in a short amount of time with those gathered materials.

Can it make a difference? Absolutely. But this thing is huge, and a 10 man guild is really pitance compared for what is required to achieve much. In beta golems were used but still died relatively quickly trying to beat down a keep door, without having much effect on the door. lol

If a 100 man guild did this then maybe it'd be an advantage, but again, it depends on how easily the prints sold for, and you'd need alot of planning on the guild's part...which is ultimately the purpose of WvW in the end. So kind of a plus if you ask me. ;)

Originally posted by Madimorga

It's true that the most concrete issue is things like the siege engine blueprints costing gold.  There may be other advantages obtainable in pvp with gold that should be looked at too, who knows? 

Yes, there's also an item for influence gain (various WvW & PvE advantages) and rumors of a karma boost item (used for various rewards, no details known)

Originally posted by terrant

Originally posted by Madimorga

Well, I might have misunderstood the first post I read on it, which led me to believe that it required gold each time to create a siege engine.  Are you saying the blue prints are reusable by the player who purchases them?  Or do they have a limited number of uses?  Because that would affect how serious this issue is.  Small costs during long fights could add up, but obviously not if it's a buy it once for a small cost and have it forever.

Keep in mind there's a bottleneck to this. Lert's just say, hypothetically, that BPs are one-shot. You have to keep buying them to make engines. and let's just say you get yourself a p2w player that buys a ton of gems, sells them for gold, and uses the gold to buy plans.

 

He can only build engines as fast as his guild can farm resources. And also keep in mind battles will, if they go as currently planned, last weeks.

 

So 

1) His hundreds of BPs stored up are just gonna collect dust since I'm sure resources will be finite.

2) meanwhile, given the length of time needed to farm resources, a non p2w guild can also be farming gold in game and buy as many BPs as they needed.

 

All of this depends very heavily on the number of uses a bp gets, its cost in gold, the amount of gold a gem becomes worth based on other players' supply and demand on the market, how easy it is to earn gold in-game, and how how it takes to farm engine resources. But it seems to me it would take a very specific set of circumstances for a p2w type to dominate seiges via gold buying. And LOADS of potential circumstances in which he'd have little or no gain over a non-p2w player.

 

Fairly encouraging, but as we both said there's a lot of factors that will need to be considered.

Well if it works that way, it won't be a problem.  It would only be an issue if it was easy to buy and build siege engines at a pace that a reasonable guild can't keep up with as far as gold costs go.  Which for all I knew that was a possibility.

figure I'll go ahead and link this here take from it what you will.

My thougths ont he potential ramifications of gems in Guild Wars 2:

http://www.eternalalchemy.com/2012/03/20/economic-ramifications-of-gems/

Originally posted by VowOfSilence

Originally posted by Madimorga

It's true that the most concrete issue is things like the siege engine blueprints costing gold.  There may be other advantages obtainable in pvp with gold that should be looked at too, who knows? 

Yes, there's also an item for influence gain (various WvW & PvE advantages) and rumors of a karma boost item (used for various rewards, no details known)

Well, then they should take a long hard look at these things before they go live with this setup.  Wallets do not belong in pvp.

Originally posted by VowOfSilence

Originally posted by Madimorga

It's true that the most concrete issue is things like the siege engine blueprints costing gold.  There may be other advantages obtainable in pvp with gold that should be looked at too, who knows? 

Yes, there's also an item for influence gain (various WvW & PvE advantages) and rumors of a karma boost item (used for various rewards, no details known)

With respect, care to show me the exact post where Arenanet mentions these items, or a link to the (as yet non-existent) cash shop to see them? I don't doubt the possibility of such items exists, but until we see them and see how difficult (if at all possible) they are to earn without RMT, then all this is would be complete conjecture. And it will just cause unreasoning panic among people that will claim Anet is all about p2w, which they've repeatedly said the opposite of.

Also, we don't have a clear idea of what can be bought with influence or karma yet, or how "important" it will be to have these items.

Originally posted by Madimorga

 

Again, google pilot carry teams wow rateds before you assume there is no rmt in pvp.

 

And at least people who allow others to play their characters to carry them to better ratings or who pay real cash to join carry teams risk their accounts if Blizzard ever actually gives a damn.  The way this is being set up, buying someone's services for gold you paid for with diamonds that you bought with cash will be perfectly legal, and what those people do with that gold later is no problem of yours.  So what if they sell it to another player for real currency, right?  You can't get in trouble for it.

That's more of service selling than gold selling and cash shop (or lack of it) has very little to do with it.  It's a mentality and mechanics problems more than "cash shop ruining the game" issue. Plus, again WoW has gear treadmil setup, which forces grind on players if they want to stay on same base level (as in skill aside) with others, even before they added BGs in vanilla. GoldDKP runs are pretty much standard thing in WoW end-game guilds once you have a raid instance on safe farm status. 

Why would You do that in GW2 when You have nothing to gain gear wise from PvP? Even if we take that idea somone will buy their way into decent team to get a win in tournament for a vanity title (which in itself is pretty absurd), they would pay with real cash outside of game rather than with gems that have no value in real life. And if GW2 will have pro-scene i doubt any serious team capable of winning big, cash prized tournaments, would give up a valuable player spot just to carry a scrub. 

Originally posted by Madimorga

Originally posted by terrant

Originally posted by Madimorga

Well, I might have misunderstood the first post I read on it, which led me to believe that it required gold each time to create a siege engine.  Are you saying the blue prints are reusable by the player who purchases them?  Or do they have a limited number of uses?  Because that would affect how serious this issue is.  Small costs during long fights could add up, but obviously not if it's a buy it once for a small cost and have it forever.

Keep in mind there's a bottleneck to this. Lert's just say, hypothetically, that BPs are one-shot. You have to keep buying them to make engines. and let's just say you get yourself a p2w player that buys a ton of gems, sells them for gold, and uses the gold to buy plans.

 

He can only build engines as fast as his guild can farm resources. And also keep in mind battles will, if they go as currently planned, last weeks.

 

So 

1) His hundreds of BPs stored up are just gonna collect dust since I'm sure resources will be finite.

2) meanwhile, given the length of time needed to farm resources, a non p2w guild can also be farming gold in game and buy as many BPs as they needed.

 

All of this depends very heavily on the number of uses a bp gets, its cost in gold, the amount of gold a gem becomes worth based on other players' supply and demand on the market, how easy it is to earn gold in-game, and how how it takes to farm engine resources. But it seems to me it would take a very specific set of circumstances for a p2w type to dominate seiges via gold buying. And LOADS of potential circumstances in which he'd have little or no gain over a non-p2w player.

 

Fairly encouraging, but as we both said there's a lot of factors that will need to be considered.

Well if it works that way, it won't be a problem.  It would only be an issue if it was easy to buy and build siege engines at a pace that a reasonable guild can't keep up with as far as gold costs go.  Which for all I knew that was a possibility.

 

There is a finite amount of resources, you cant "farm" them. They generate overtime and ONLY if you control resource points  it doesnt matter how many blue prints you buy. Doesnt even matter if you have  the most organzied guild in the world, there is a limit.

Originally posted by terrant

Originally posted by VowOfSilence

Originally posted by Madimorga

It's true that the most concrete issue is things like the siege engine blueprints costing gold.  There may be other advantages obtainable in pvp with gold that should be looked at too, who knows? 

Yes, there's also an item for influence gain (various WvW & PvE advantages) and rumors of a karma boost item (used for various rewards, no details known)

With respect, care to show me the exact post where Arenanet mentions these items, or a link to the (as yet non-existent) cash shop to see them? I don't doubt the possibility of such items exists, but until we see them and see how difficult (if at all possible) they are to earn without RMT, then all this is would be complete conjecture. And it will just cause unreasoning panic among people that will claim Anet is all about p2w, which they've repeatedly said the opposite of.

Also, we don't have a clear idea of what can be bought with influence or karma yet, or how "important" it will be to have these items.

 

I believe the reference is to the one time use items available with pre purchase. NO WHERE has it been stated that those particular items will be available in any other way and I seriously doubt they will.

Originally posted by VowOfSilence

Originally posted by Madimorga

It's true that the most concrete issue is things like the siege engine blueprints costing gold.  There may be other advantages obtainable in pvp with gold that should be looked at too, who knows? 

Yes, there's also an item for influence gain (various WvW & PvE advantages) and rumors of a karma boost item (used for various rewards, no details known)

And this is the problem with people in general. "Hey I hear you can buy xxx item." and then everyone runs rampant with the rumor instead of waiting to see what actually happens.

Personally I dont like the idea and I'm going to be at a point in life when that comes out that I wont have alot of disposable income. So you would think I would be all for being able to buy cash shop items with ingame gold but no, I really dont like that idea at all. HOWEVER I fully plan on waiting to see how it all works out.

To thoes of you that are saying "oooh this ruins the game I wont play now blah blah blah blah" thats fine. Might I suggest though that if you where interested in the game before this to at least pay attention to what people are saying about it after launch. You may be 100% correct and this may turn out to be p2w. Or it may turn out they really did find a good way to do it.

Originally posted by Ezhae

Originally posted by Madimorga

 

Again, google pilot carry teams wow rateds before you assume there is no rmt in pvp.

 

And at least people who allow others to play their characters to carry them to better ratings or who pay real cash to join carry teams risk their accounts if Blizzard ever actually gives a damn.  The way this is being set up, buying someone's services for gold you paid for with diamonds that you bought with cash will be perfectly legal, and what those people do with that gold later is no problem of yours.  So what if they sell it to another player for real currency, right?  You can't get in trouble for it.

That's more of service selling than gold selling and cash shop (or lack of it) has very little to do with it.  It's a mentality and mechanics problems more than "cash shop ruining the game" issue. Plus, again WoW has gear treadmil setup, which forces grind on players if they want to stay on same base level (as in skill aside) with others, even before they added BGs in vanilla. GoldDKP runs are pretty much standard thing in WoW end-game guilds once you have a raid instance on safe farm status. 

Why would You do that in GW2 when You have nothing to gain gear wise from PvP? Even if we take that idea somone will buy their way into decent team to get a win in tournament for a vanity title (which in itself is pretty absurd), they would pay with real cash outside of game rather than with gems that have no value in real life. And if GW2 will have pro-scene i doubt any serious team capable of winning big, cash prized tournaments, would give up a valuable player spot just to carry a scrub. 

My point in referencing WoW pilot and carry teams was only that it can be profitable to RMT pvp.  If you think about it, all the gearing up people pay real money to other people to do for them still only boils down to prestige.  In the end regular players gain nothing in real life from having the best rank, title, gear, or whatever.  Since they're still willing to pay (and even risk their accounts), why wouldn't a guild who wants to be the best WvWvW guild on the server be willing to pay, too?

Originally posted by austriacus

There is a finite amount of resources, you cant "farm" them. They generate overtime and ONLY if you control resource points  it doesnt matter how many blue prints you buy. Doesnt even matter if you have  the most organzied guild in the world, there is a limit.

True, but I'd love to be in that guild ;)

It's what will hopefully make the WvW here shine, but time will tell if the tools are in place for it.

Originally posted by MwynForever

Originally posted by terrant

Originally posted by VowOfSilence

Originally posted by Madimorga

It's true that the most concrete issue is things like the siege engine blueprints costing gold.  There may be other advantages obtainable in pvp with gold that should be looked at too, who knows? 

Yes, there's also an item for influence gain (various WvW & PvE advantages) and rumors of a karma boost item (used for various rewards, no details known)

With respect, care to show me the exact post where Arenanet mentions these items, or a link to the (as yet non-existent) cash shop to see them? I don't doubt the possibility of such items exists, but until we see them and see how difficult (if at all possible) they are to earn without RMT, then all this is would be complete conjecture. And it will just cause unreasoning panic among people that will claim Anet is all about p2w, which they've repeatedly said the opposite of.

Also, we don't have a clear idea of what can be bought with influence or karma yet, or how "important" it will be to have these items.

 

I believe the reference is to the one time use items available with pre purchase. NO WHERE has it been stated that those particular items will be available in any other way and I seriously doubt they will.

The prepurchase chalice gives You Glory points, which are nothing but "expierience" points for doing structured PvP matches that let You unlock cosmetic variations of PvP gear. Hardly game breaking. You might get different looking boots 4 days sooner than a guy who didn't use it. IMBA! :P

Originally posted by Ezhae

Originally posted by MwynForever

Originally posted by terrant

Originally posted by VowOfSilence

Originally posted by Madimorga

It's true that the most concrete issue is things like the siege engine blueprints costing gold.  There may be other advantages obtainable in pvp with gold that should be looked at too, who knows? 

Yes, there's also an item for influence gain (various WvW & PvE advantages) and rumors of a karma boost item (used for various rewards, no details known)

With respect, care to show me the exact post where Arenanet mentions these items, or a link to the (as yet non-existent) cash shop to see them? I don't doubt the possibility of such items exists, but until we see them and see how difficult (if at all possible) they are to earn without RMT, then all this is would be complete conjecture. And it will just cause unreasoning panic among people that will claim Anet is all about p2w, which they've repeatedly said the opposite of.

Also, we don't have a clear idea of what can be bought with influence or karma yet, or how "important" it will be to have these items.

 

I believe the reference is to the one time use items available with pre purchase. NO WHERE has it been stated that those particular items will be available in any other way and I seriously doubt they will.

The prepurchase chalice gives You Glory points, which are nothing but "expierience" points for doing structured PvP matches that let You unlock cosmetic variations of PvP gear. Hardly game breaking. You might get different looking boots 4 days sooner than a guy who didn't use it. IMBA! :P

Indeed, not even close to an I WIN.

Originally posted by DJJazzy

Originally posted by someforumguy

Originally posted by DJJazzy

Originally posted by Cassiopeian

Originally posted by fiontar

Originally posted by Cassiopeian

Originally posted by RizelStar

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1237209&postcount=1013

Some more common sense.

Damn, ran out of popcorn I need some pizza.

That's not common sense, because you can create inflation by playing the AH via gems.

 

For instance, if I bought a lot of gems, traded them for gold with another player, and then bought up a ton of mats in the AH to resell at a profit, it would work the same way as if I'd bought gold in WoW. It is not inflation neutral, because it doesn't take into account the fact that the supply of gold might be limited, but the supply of mats, being limited, is very susceptible to price inflation. You also have to take into account the supply-demand characteristics of mats ingame, otherwise someone willing to spend RL money for ingame gems can make a killing speculating on the AH, with more of an advantage than someone who only has the gold they earned speculating to trade with. 

 

 

However, the more gems flooding the market, the less valuable those gems become. If everone bought $15 worth of gems each month and placed them on the market, they would be worth next to nothing in gold. Speculators have room to profit from speculation, but I wouldn't assume that they will be right even most of the time. Every other AAA MMO I can think of has server only, (and usually faction only) Auction Houses, which makes price manipulation viable for speculators. In GW2, the Marketplace is cross server. All players everywhere share the same Marketplace. How do you manipulate mat prices as one person on one server out of a hunderd or more? There could be millions of players for this game in the early months, how does one person ever hope to manipulate a market of millions? (With enough money, maybe, but I tend to doubt anyone will drop $millions into GW2 gems)!

That is interesting. I didn't know the AH was cross-server. But why wouldn't it ultimately cause mat inflation anyway, if you can buy the gems to trade for gold to buy mats? Servers surely won't be that unique in their behaviours. My point is that it is not 'neutral,' even if the supply of gold is fixed, as mats will not be.

 

But your response does make me wonder - can you buy stuff in the AH with gems as opposed to in-game gold? Is there some sort of conversion option there? Thanks for your considered reply, by the way. 

Gems are currency for cash shop only. The only thing you can do in game with them is trade them to other players. There is no NPC that will trade gems for gold for example.

Lol that makes no sense. Why would anyone buy gems in the cash shop if all you can do with them is trade them to other players? There has to be more use for them. Are you really sure that they are not used as currency for npcs? :p

Absolutely positive. Gems is the currency for the cash shop only. 

Gems are currency for cash shop items, but players can also sell them for Gold on the in game Marketplace. The cross server nature of the Marketplace is important because it makes it impossible for someone to buy up all the cheap offerings of a resource and then jacking up the price when they resell them. How do you corner the market on a resource whenthere are millions of players sharing the same market?

So, at best a crafter could buy Gems for cash and sell them on the Market for Gold, in order to fund their crafting progression, but they are still just one crafter out of many thousands all offering their wares for sale in competition with each other.

It's also harder for a few big spenders to boost overall inflation. If the game had server specific marketplaces, many servers may have too little Gem to Gold trading to matter, but you could get some servers that just happen to have a few individuals willing to plop down a lot of Cash for Gems for Gold. On those servers, those players could have a negative impact on the economy, mostly by cornering the market on resources and desirable crafted items and selling at artificially inflated prices. That just can't happen here. There would have to be thousands of people spending insane amounts of cash on the Cash to Gem to Gold trade to have an impact and if this were ever to happen, the flood of Gems on the Market would drive down the Gold selling price of Gems, decreasing the possible impact on inflation.

Remember that Gems don't create new Gold in the economy. There is no vendor that pays you Gold for a Gem. If you sel a Gem, it's to other players via the Marketplace and that gold already exists in the economy.