Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

Originally posted by Damon

I think there are varying degrees of the spending money on gaming.  Some people spend money here and there for companion pets, others spend it on ingame currency, still others spend it on items that enhance/improve their gameplay, and I even read an article about a man who mortgaged his home to pay the developer to create ingame real estate for him (which he then sold for real money).  I think he made a profit, but that's the extreme end of the scale to me.  If I'm not mistaken, the game was Second Life.  Anyway, the P2W mentality seems to be largely embraced by the casual gamers who have money to spend, and that's how they enjoy spending it.

 

I don't think the amount of money has anything to do with it.

It's all about what GAMES are all about. There is an old saying that the only time when a begger can be greater than the king is while thay're playing chess... and this is equally sweet for both the beggar and the king. The moment RL circumstance begins to influence the outcome of the game, the spell is broken and the game stops being a game.

The very point of games, the reason why we play them is that they divorce us from the mores of our everyday life and status. Games which are dependent on your social circumstance are pointless and useless as games, pretty much by definition. They might be called "entertainment" of sorts but they are not really games because they do not fulfill one of the  basic psycho-social functions of the phenomena we call "games."

I'd never play a game that has a "P2W" component, not because I'm cheap but because I can see no point or entertainment value whatsoever in that. I'll pay a 100 $ a month sub for a game that really entertains me, but if i see that someone, including me can get 1% edge over the others for just one measly cent, I'm gone. It's not a game anymore, it's an ego whorehouse and I'm out.

Fantastic post! You nailed it dude.

Got to agree Plinkplonk nailed it.

But anyway, I've wondered about this myself, I play a couple of facebook games that do have to play2win aspect. A while ago I was talking to a friend about it and although I play some of these games I have never paid any money to buy stuff in game, as the way I see it is that I don't want to spend however much they are charging to buy something that does not exsist. I can happily play the game without paying a penny.

Well a game developed to be F2P must create a need to spend money.  Despite their claim that all F2P games are "totally free to play" they couldnt dream of making a game where you didnt NEED to spend money, it has to make money.

Furthermore, the game must maximize on those who will spend money, to make up for those who wont.

Typically games design fustrations.  My favorite is the too small inventory and warehouse. They exacerbate this by mailing you a few cash shop items that youll want to save for much later in game, clogging up the limited space. 

Other designed fustrations include a leveling wall, you hit XX level and progression is reduced exponentially, making you want to just fork over money for increased XP gains. Crafting with a high fail rate without items.  Extremely slow travel with purchasable mounts or teleport rights sold. Consumables that give you an edge in pvp.

The problem arises when they decide to use the rent over purchase option, meaning your paying above and beyond what a P2P would cost just to make the game not as fustrating to enjoy.

The pay to win is another money maker, especially in games where you want to compete. Consumables that give buffs, crafting related gear that needs to be made using cash shop protection from breaking or items rarely found in game to create competative items.  These are often the route of a pay to win.

The worst is when they add a premium "buff" rented as a monthly fee that competes with a p2p. So now you have a p2p sub and all the other fustrations as well. Typically these premium buffs remove the xp wall issue slightly and add a few other nominal bonuses.

The end result for someone who wants to compete in a f2p or enjoy a fustration free game is that you have to pay a huge premium on what you would already get in a p2p for $15 a month plus a box.

My guess is that someone who can afford a p2p and will spend in a f2p would either choose to do so when they typically play games for a short period of time (possibly not spending any if they play for a short time) or people who want an edge in a game so bad they will out spend people to get it.

Ive never played a p2p game that i didnt enjoy for at least a month or two, and the longer you play the better value it becomes. Even with occasional expansions with a box price. I never had to plan on what i wanted what i could live without and what was bothering me the most as to how to spend money in a p2p.

Worst case scenario is a p2p will offer deco pets/costumes/triket in game items in a cash shop. They have no effect in the game.  I actually like when they do this. Added revenue to the game i play for those who buy these things.

Bottom line for me is that the f2p model cheapes the game experience, it does give it that casino feel. Its quite easy to get really involved with the game for a few years then look back at all the money you spent and get pissed.  With a p2p i feel the money im spending is "in the now" and the price im paying to currently enjoy the game.  With F2P i feel like i better f-ing enjoy the game a long time since i just spent XX amount of dollars.

I use the f2p model and spend on games that people consider to be p2w and here's why. Example I'll use for this is Allods Online, cause it's my priority mmo at the moment.

Well first I'll say that there are lots of free to play games that you can play at end game and never ever pay a cent. Does that mean that you can be the absolute strongest in the game? Nope it doesn't, if that's your aim than the free to play model isn't for you, as every single f2p game will have some form of boost from the cash shop (I see Guild Wars 2 following suit though, which I think is hilarious given that game's fanboys).

Anyway why do I use the cash shop? Well because I'm not in my 30s, have a full time job and a girlfriend who hates gaming. That doesn't leave me anywhere near the time necessary to get competitive at end game without the cash shop. Literally without those boosts that I can buy I couldn't exist in a game that I love. I wouldn't get chosen for raids, dungeons or even any decent guild. I'd be weak as hell and would have to quit.

Now does that make the game p2w? It does and it doesn't. Obviously if I can buy boosts from the cash shop it makes it pay 2 win by definition right? Well I would say no, so long as the game involved allows those with the time the chance to get these items in-game. Take runes in Allods Online. People hear about them and think 'omg this is massively p2w' because they give a boost to your stats. What they don't know is that many players have forged better runes than mine through grinding ingame gold and crystal chips. In takes weeks and months, but it is available. The option I took allowed me to skip that, because I spent that time working in my job instead of grinding.

I honestly don't think some players realise that the p2w/f2p model is set up to attract more casual users. WoW brought a lot of new faces to the mmorpg table, ones that really like the experience but don't have the time or desire to spend that long on one game. This is a method of keeping those guys within our genre so that we can push forward with advanced titles like GW2. That's all it is, not the coming of the Antichrist that some of you make it out to be.

I know few of my friends buy stuff, if available, because they simply do not have time to farm it (family, work etc.) or it is cheaper for them to buy it . In the latter case, tthey simply make so much money in real-life that it would be stupid for them to do menial tasks in game. Most of those friends are older gamers who at somepoint in their life probably had the time and willingness to do those menial tasks, but not anymore.

OP I agree completely with your reasons for starting this thread. That is why I am sure you and others with a similar mindset will work with me in forcing game companies to scan player computers and block players that have more then the minimum spec hardware. Its just unfair how some players pay more then others and have better video cards and computers!

Originally posted by Rhianni32

OP I agree completely with your reasons for starting this thread. That is why I am sure you and others with a similar mindset will work with me in forcing game companies to scan player computers and block players that have more then the minimum spec hardware. Its just unfair how some players pay more then others and have better video cards and computers!

Classic.  :D

Originally posted by Rhianni32

OP I agree completely with your reasons for starting this thread. That is why I am sure you and others with a similar mindset will work with me in forcing game companies to scan player computers and block players that have more then the minimum spec hardware. Its just unfair how some players pay more then others and have better video cards and computers!

Damn, then I guess I'm up ^&$#creek since I just upgraded mine.

OH why is life so unfair!!!!

Originally posted by Herodes

Paying 60$ for a game and hoping the fun lasts more than one week is any better? ;)

Yes, because no one ever played any single-player game for more than a week, so clearly an MMO at the same price won't be fun as long either.

Wait...

Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

Originally posted by Damon

I think there are varying degrees of the spending money on gaming.  Some people spend money here and there for companion pets, others spend it on ingame currency, still others spend it on items that enhance/improve their gameplay, and I even read an article about a man who mortgaged his home to pay the developer to create ingame real estate for him (which he then sold for real money).  I think he made a profit, but that's the extreme end of the scale to me.  If I'm not mistaken, the game was Second Life.  Anyway, the P2W mentality seems to be largely embraced by the casual gamers who have money to spend, and that's how they enjoy spending it.

 

I don't think the amount of money has anything to do with it.

It's all about what GAMES are all about. There is an old saying that the only time when a begger can be greater than the king is while thay're playing chess... and this is equally sweet for both the beggar and the king. The moment RL circumstance begins to influence the outcome of the game, the spell is broken and the game stops being a game.

The very point of games, the reason why we play them is that they divorce us from the mores of our everyday life and status. Games which are dependent on your social circumstance are pointless and useless as games, pretty much by definition. They might be called "entertainment" of sorts but they are not really games because they do not fulfill one of the  basic psycho-social functions of the phenomena we call "games."

I'd never play a game that has a "P2W" component, not because I'm cheap but because I can see no point or entertainment value whatsoever in that. I'll pay a 100 $ a month sub for a game that really entertains me, but if i see that someone, including me can get 1% edge over the others for just one measly cent, I'm gone. It's not a game anymore, it's an ego whorehouse and I'm out.

This includes all MMORPGs ... if you are in college and you can play 10x  the amount that a guy works can.... then guess what?  your real life circumstances impacted the game. 

Time = money.

Originally posted by bishbosh

the fact these games exist suggests there is large number of people that pay2win.

 

1.do they just impulse buy and not realise how badly they are being ripped off. Some people aparentyl spend $100s or even $1000s of dollars on these games. they could have been playing sub games.

2.do they play these games with the intent of purchasing advantage so they can be the best.

 

 

yes on number 2.

additionally most of the are working adults who can afford it.

I do not approve of pay2win for pvp based games I think its fine for pve focused games and or where pvp is really meaningless which I might add I just described most MMOs

Originally posted by bishbosh

the fact these games exist suggests there is large number of people that pay2win.

 

1.do they just impulse buy and not realise how badly they are being ripped off. Some people aparentyl spend $100s or even $1000s of dollars on these games. they could have been playing sub games.

2.do they play these games with the intent of purchasing advantage so they can be the best.

 

 

People who work long hours and loaded with clash.

Nothing wrong with it, as long as I am not forced to play with them.

Originally posted by bishbosh

the fact these games exist suggests there is large number of people that pay2win.

 

1.do they just impulse buy and not realise how badly they are being ripped off. Some people aparentyl spend $100s or even $1000s of dollars on these games. they could have been playing sub games.

2.do they play these games with the intent of purchasing advantage so they can be the best.

Or 3. They just play casually, having fun and not pay a dime until they reach the point where they can't progress any further without paying, and then they just create a new char or move on to a different game, which IIRC from an article I read, would be about 90% of the people that play them (I remember it said something like only 10% of the people that play F2P titles actually pay anything).

Originally posted by L0C0Man

Originally posted by bishbosh

the fact these games exist suggests there is large number of people that pay2win.

 

1.do they just impulse buy and not realise how badly they are being ripped off. Some people aparentyl spend $100s or even $1000s of dollars on these games. they could have been playing sub games.

2.do they play these games with the intent of purchasing advantage so they can be the best.

Or 3. They just play casually, having fun and not pay a dime until they reach the point where they can't progress any further without paying, and then they just create a new char or move on to a different game, which IIRC from an article I read, would be about 90% of the people that play them (I remember it said something like only 10% of the people that play F2P titles actually pay anything).

intresting 90%.

I will say that is exactly how I plan to work it if F2P hits the games I play which at the moment they dont because I am busy playing skryim :)

Originally posted by bishbosh

the fact these games exist suggests there is large number of people that pay2win.

 

1.do they just impulse buy and not realise how badly they are being ripped off. Some people aparentyl spend $100s or even $1000s of dollars on these games. they could have been playing sub games.

2.do they play these games with the intent of purchasing advantage so they can be the best.

 

 

I would say the people that pay to win are really no different from the hardcore raiders who raid 40+ hours a week and spend even more time preparing for the raid. In all reality there is no difference. As the saying goes time is money. Think of how much money the elite players in a game like WoW could have made if they crawled out of their parents basement and got a job. Some people just prefer to work and make real money rather than work and make fake gold or get make believe magic gear.  Spending real money in order to "pwn a nubz" doesn't seem worth it to me but neither does spending more than half of my life in front of the computer to accomplish the same goal. To each their own I guess but I really dont see why people bash the hell out of the pay to win folks when they really are not very different from the hardcore $15 a month sub people at all.

Originally posted by Angier2758

Originally posted by Pilnkplonk

Originally posted by Damon

I think there are varying degrees of the spending money on gaming.  Some people spend money here and there for companion pets, others spend it on ingame currency, still others spend it on items that enhance/improve their gameplay, and I even read an article about a man who mortgaged his home to pay the developer to create ingame real estate for him (which he then sold for real money).  I think he made a profit, but that's the extreme end of the scale to me.  If I'm not mistaken, the game was Second Life.  Anyway, the P2W mentality seems to be largely embraced by the casual gamers who have money to spend, and that's how they enjoy spending it.

 

I don't think the amount of money has anything to do with it.

It's all about what GAMES are all about. There is an old saying that the only time when a begger can be greater than the king is while thay're playing chess... and this is equally sweet for both the beggar and the king. The moment RL circumstance begins to influence the outcome of the game, the spell is broken and the game stops being a game.

The very point of games, the reason why we play them is that they divorce us from the mores of our everyday life and status. Games which are dependent on your social circumstance are pointless and useless as games, pretty much by definition. They might be called "entertainment" of sorts but they are not really games because they do not fulfill one of the  basic psycho-social functions of the phenomena we call "games."

I'd never play a game that has a "P2W" component, not because I'm cheap but because I can see no point or entertainment value whatsoever in that. I'll pay a 100 $ a month sub for a game that really entertains me, but if i see that someone, including me can get 1% edge over the others for just one measly cent, I'm gone. It's not a game anymore, it's an ego whorehouse and I'm out.

This includes all MMORPGs ... if you are in college and you can play 10x  the amount that a guy works can.... then guess what?  your real life circumstances impacted the game. 

 

Time = money.

I did in one game that I loved to play. OMG! Once I hit $750/mo to play I had to quit.

the same people who love gear grinders. *coughinferioritycomplexescough*

Originally posted by RefMinor
If some guy trains 10 hrs a day at tennis compared to my 2hrs for whatever reason he deserves to win, if he trains 2 hrs and buys a bionic arm then fuck it, I am not playing the game.

I've used this argument many times as well in the past. For some reason, it doesn't seem to hold too well.

In the manner that Professional Bodybuilding (juiced) will never be acknowledged by the Olympic commitee, P2W games will never be truly respected by gamers.

Originally posted by atticusbc

the same people who love gear grinders. *coughinferioritycomplexescough*

But not the kind who love freeform sandboxes. *cougheliteistdbagscough*

Hmm, I think you might be contagious.