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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why can't we get a good PvP centered MMOG? [Poll]

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159 posts found
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19738

3/14/12 4:23:56 PM#141
Originally posted by Yamota

Fault of the developers??? Are you serious?

Open world pvp is the OLD idea (back to UO for god sake) and it is really not working that well. E-sport comes later, and was NEWER in MMO .. thus that *is* the innovation.

Plus, e-sport is popular. Players have fun with it. Personally I prefer a BG 100x more than open world pvp. Are you gonig to tell me what i should enjoy? Get real.

I dont much care what you enjoy or what is popular. E-sport does not make much sense in an MMORPG environment where usually factions are at war. How often do you see nations at war playing sports against each other? Taliban vs US in soccer? riiiight...

 

 

I don't much care about what you think make sense or not.

Games are for entertainment, not a reflection of real world. E-sport is good entertainment to many. It is popular. It is here to stay.

I mean, you are a wizard thorwing fireballs at living trees ... riiiight ....

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

3/14/12 4:26:53 PM#142
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Yamota

Fault of the developers??? Are you serious?

Open world pvp is the OLD idea (back to UO for god sake) and it is really not working that well. E-sport comes later, and was NEWER in MMO .. thus that *is* the innovation.

Plus, e-sport is popular. Players have fun with it. Personally I prefer a BG 100x more than open world pvp. Are you gonig to tell me what i should enjoy? Get real.

I dont much care what you enjoy or what is popular. E-sport does not make much sense in an MMORPG environment where usually factions are at war. How often do you see nations at war playing sports against each other? Taliban vs US in soccer? riiiight...

 

 

I don't much care about what you think make sense or not.

Games are for entertainment, not a reflection of real world. E-sport is good entertainment to many. It is popular. It is here to stay.

I mean, you are a wizard thorwing fireballs at living trees ... riiiight ....


I can throw fireballs and I have a stick that shoots lightning. Well actually it shoots electricity along a wire with really high voltage so that the wire overheats and disintegrates and I can't actually hunt wolves with it or even take it outside for fear of being arrested.

  Gravarg

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 8/24/06
Posts: 3136

3/14/12 4:28:16 PM#143

DAoC is still up and running :)

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

3/14/12 10:07:27 PM#144
Originally posted by Yamota

This is the fault of the developers/producers really. Instead of innovating and being visionaries they just look at what is currently the big thing and then they try to ape it so to make as much profit as possible. Right now League of Legends type of games are in a big rise so MMORPG developers are trying to squeze that sort of thing into the game even if it does not at all fit with the lore, world etc. That is how that Hutt Ball abomination found itself into SW:TOR.

We should carry that idea to its logical conclusion "the fault of the developers, which is the fault of the market demand."  Games where PVP is fundamentally not about skillful competition are in extremely low demand in the grand scheme of things.

LOL-style games aren't just "on the rise".

They've been the norm.  Forever.

Remember Soccer?  Chess?  Go?

Skill is the focus of the overwhelming majority of competitive games.  You don't start with an extra Queen after 100 games of Chess because Chess is about skill, not time investment.  You also don't get to bring 2 friends (with their own sets of pieces) into a Chess match because it's about skill, not outnumbering your opponent.

For every game like EVE or UO (PVP where population and progress are strong influences) there are literally thousands of other competitive games that remain focused on skill.

And why is that?  Well it brings the post full-circle: because the market demands it.

  Robsolf

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/21/06
Posts: 4013

Let go of my ears, I know what I'm doing!

3/14/12 10:13:15 PM#145
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by Robsolf

You miss the most basic point they were trying to make.  This poster isn't ASKING for the grand "I win" button.  The SWG player is.

"I played for a ridiculously stupid amount of time in a way that would make ANY human being on the planet want to vomit.  Therefore I want to be able to /faceroll my way to victory."

It didn't go well because it was the stupidest idea that gaming could have come up with, except for swordquest: fireworld.  it was still damn close.

An I Win button? Yes you are. He wants to be able to beat anyone who hasn't spent as much time in game as him. You want to beat anyone with inferior genes or less time to build muscle memory, etc.

You still refuse to explain the difference to me.

You refuse to listen.  I've explained it ad nauseum.  I've explained it several times in my previous post.  And I'm just not gonna explain again to someone who doesn't want to see it.

 

 

  Kiljaedenas

Novice Member

Joined: 7/29/11
Posts: 466

To err is human, but to really f*ck things up you need a computer.

3/14/12 10:19:10 PM#146
Originally posted by Angier2758

I think it's a multifaceted issue.. 2 big parts are

 

  • PVP players are a little more: competitive, immature, deluded.  They also have no clue what they *really* want: ie they say they are a "PVP guild" yet they play SWTOR..... yeah that really doesn't make sense.
  • The gaming companies realize my first point and market it so that it attracts all the pvp players that don't know they are getting suckered into a PVE game that looks like it might at some point have a slight chance of possibly containting a hint of an inkling that's a glimmer of hope of being a decent pvp game....

Nice blanket insult bud. Thanks a bunch. I'm a PvP player and I definitely do know what I *really* want. And I have never once played SWTOR, could tell it was a PvE snooze-fest WoW clone from looking at the company website for it.

Where's the any key?

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

3/14/12 10:20:58 PM#147
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Yamota

This is the fault of the developers/producers really. Instead of innovating and being visionaries they just look at what is currently the big thing and then they try to ape it so to make as much profit as possible. Right now League of Legends type of games are in a big rise so MMORPG developers are trying to squeze that sort of thing into the game even if it does not at all fit with the lore, world etc. That is how that Hutt Ball abomination found itself into SW:TOR.

We should carry that idea to its logical conclusion "the fault of the developers, which is the fault of the market demand."  Games where PVP is fundamentally not about skillful competition are in extremely low demand in the grand scheme of things.

LOL-style games aren't just "on the rise".

They've been the norm.  Forever.

Remember Soccer?  Chess?  Go?

Skill is the focus of the overwhelming majority of competitive games.  You don't start with an extra Queen after 100 games of Chess because Chess is about skill, not time investment.  You also don't get to bring 2 friends (with their own sets of pieces) into a Chess match because it's about skill, not outnumbering your opponent.

For every game like EVE or UO (PVP where population and progress are strong influences) there are literally thousands of other competitive games that remain focused on skill.

And why is that?  Well it brings the post full-circle: because the market demands it.


Get passed this.

If I start a new MMO I do not get an extra 20 levels because I completed the entire hardmode of raids in WoW.

That is the proper comparison to chess.

  Robsolf

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/21/06
Posts: 4013

Let go of my ears, I know what I'm doing!

3/14/12 10:23:51 PM#148
Originally posted by kaiser3282

The difference is, by being rewarded for long play time, youre essentially given the "I win" button because pressing that button is more effective than someone else pressing the same button at the same time and place, simply because you played more.

In twitch, if 2 people press the same button at the same time and aim at the same place on their target, both of them end up dead. But if someone presses the button faster, and with better aim, thats what wins. Pressing the button does the same exact thing for everyone, but the person who is faster and aims better is going to win.

And not even regarding twitch... a person who knows the game can beat a good twitch player, WITHOUT artificial (poof: you're 20% better) mechanics.  You don't need good twitch skills to play chess, but you DO need to know the game.  And the person that knows the game best wins.  That's what makes the game relevent in our computer screen world.

What I'm asking out of an MMO is that all those things mean something.  NOT, "I've played the game the most, so I have some advantage ASIDE from the simple fact that I played the most."  YOU ARE NOT CLEVER due to being higher level.  You've just been doing it longer, and with that being the case, the experience itself should matter; not some artificial "you're 20% better" nonsense.  

  Robsolf

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/21/06
Posts: 4013

Let go of my ears, I know what I'm doing!

3/14/12 10:30:34 PM#149
Originally posted by Cuathon
 


Get passed this.

If I start a new MMO I do not get an extra 20 levels because I completed the entire hardmode of raids in WoW.

That is the proper comparison to chess.

Noooooo.

that's going from Chess to Monopoly.

Chess is Chess.  Your experience matters as much as you're capable of using it, but it doesn't give you extra pieces.

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

3/14/12 10:32:59 PM#150
Originally posted by Robsolf
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by Robsolf

You miss the most basic point they were trying to make.  This poster isn't ASKING for the grand "I win" button.  The SWG player is.

"I played for a ridiculously stupid amount of time in a way that would make ANY human being on the planet want to vomit.  Therefore I want to be able to /faceroll my way to victory."

It didn't go well because it was the stupidest idea that gaming could have come up with, except for swordquest: fireworld.  it was still damn close.

An I Win button? Yes you are. He wants to be able to beat anyone who hasn't spent as much time in game as him. You want to beat anyone with inferior genes or less time to build muscle memory, etc.

You still refuse to explain the difference to me.

You refuse to listen.  I've explained it ad nauseum.  I've explained it several times in my previous post.  And I'm just not gonna explain again to someone who doesn't want to see it.

 

 

You refuse to listen.  I've explained it ad nauseum.  I've explained it several times in my previous post.  And I'm just not gonna explain again to someone who doesn't want to see it.

See I can write the same t hing because the argument looks identical to me from my side. I explained it and you refuse to accept it.

You have not explained why the fight is not decided from the start because you are 20% better at twitch, or intelligence, or latency in connection.

The other person has just as little chance to win as the person fighting against someone with 20% larger health pool.

We have 2 people, both totally equal and never having played the game before. One of them has a 20% faster reaction time. They are always going to win.

Now we have 2 other identical people. One of them has played longer and is 1 level higher and has 20% higher stats.

They are always going to win.

 

It doesn't matter what the scale is. In both cases the fight was decided before it ever happened.

Now unless you have a reason why its different in one case then the other, I think we are at the end of our rope. Peace.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

3/14/12 10:49:05 PM#151
Originally posted by Cuathon


Get passed this.

If I start a new MMO I do not get an extra 20 levels because I completed the entire hardmode of raids in WoW.

That is the proper comparison to chess.

Telling the majority of players who want good PVP to "get past" their dislike for bad PVP isn't going to work.

Your second game of Chess isn't Soccer, so your analogy makes no sense.  Your second game of Chess is still Chess, but things are reset so that your decisions can be important and meaningful again.  Much like arena PVP.  Very unlike world PVP.  Hence: people dislike bad PVP.

  User Deleted
3/14/12 11:19:21 PM#152

There has to be a real reason to fight. PVP as the draw for it's own sake will fail. We have all seen it. In non-PVP games where they make a PVP server. LOL, Show me a themepark PVP server, and I'll show you a server with no PVP. Just a place that 's frustrating to level. That's all. 

 

  Hluill

Novice Member

Joined: 4/30/09
Posts: 102

3/15/12 9:04:32 AM#153

 

Hluill, a barbarian rogue, and his Warrior-daughter, Leyek
Playing: GW2, TSW, LotRO, EQ2, and V:SoH
Played: EQ, UO, DAoC, WAR, DDO, AoC, MO

  Robsolf

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/21/06
Posts: 4013

Let go of my ears, I know what I'm doing!

3/15/12 11:23:28 AM#154
Originally posted by Cuathon
Originally posted by Robsolf

You refuse to listen.  I've explained it ad nauseum.  I've explained it several times in my previous post.  And I'm just not gonna explain again to someone who doesn't want to see it.

 

 

You refuse to listen.  I've explained it ad nauseum.  I've explained it several times in my previous post.  And I'm just not gonna explain again to someone who doesn't want to see it.

See I can write the same t hing because the argument looks identical to me from my side. I explained it and you refuse to accept it.

You have not explained why the fight is not decided from the start because you are 20% better at twitch, or intelligence, or latency in connection.

-I've explained, though I don't understand why I have to, that despite these things, a repeated competition has different outcomes EVERY TIME.  This is why the same team doesn't win the Superbowl, every year.  And why the "best team" sometimes doesn't even MAKE IT to the Superbowl every year.  This is why I can race the same people in NFS, end up in 1st place the first time, and end up dead last the next.

The other person has just as little chance to win as the person fighting against someone with 20% larger health pool.

The difference being that the person in your game didn't get 20% more health by being a better player.  They just played for longer.  Having more experience playing the game is enough advantage on its own.

We have 2 people, both totally equal and never having played the game before. One of them has a 20% faster reaction time. They are always going to win.

That is just flat out false.  Again, there would be no point in rematches in sports, chess, or any kind of competitive activity if that were true.  PEOPLE ARE NOT ROBOTS, and even the simplest game is dynamic enough to yield different outcomes.

Now we have 2 other identical people. One of them has played longer and is 1 level higher and has 20% higher stats.

They are always going to win.

Again, NOT TRUE.  But they will have an artificial advantage akin to cranking up the handicap for one of the players in a Tekken match.  And in a standard progression based MMO design, level progression is basically a handicap system that gives an advantage to the player who's played the longest, which makes absolutely no sense; and is why RPG PvP sucks.

It doesn't matter what the scale is. In both cases the fight was decided before it ever happened.

You'd have to live in a bubble to believe this to be true.  It just simply is not.   

 

 

  PukeBucket

Novice Member

Joined: 9/10/11
Posts: 888

3/15/12 12:02:35 PM#155


Originally posted by GeeTeeEffOh
There has to be a real reason to fight. PVP as the draw for it's own sake will fail. We have all seen it. In non-PVP games where they make a PVP server. LOL, Show me a themepark PVP server, and I'll show you a server with no PVP. Just a place that 's frustrating to level. That's all. 
 

There doesn't have to be a real reason.

Ever played PONG?

Everyone throws chess around. Ever had a reason to play chess? Yeah to have fun.

PvP can be built around that idea.

I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19738

3/15/12 12:16:16 PM#156
Originally posted by Cuathon

We have 2 people, both totally equal and never having played the game before. One of them has a 20% faster reaction time. They are always going to win.

Now we have 2 other identical people. One of them has played longer and is 1 level higher and has 20% higher stats.

They are always going to win.

 

It doesn't matter what the scale is. In both cases the fight was decided before it ever happened.

 

 

You forget about RNG. The slower guy crit twice in a row, and he wins.

Surely, ON AVERAGE, the guy with higher stats will win more, and he has a higher CHANCE of winning. But the outcome is NOT deterministic because the mechanics have RNG (and pretty BIG RNG in some cases) built in.

In fact, there are also RNG in the player too. You slept better last night and your reaction time is 20% faster. You play at a less conjested time and you have less lag.

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

3/15/12 12:38:00 PM#157
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Cuathon

We have 2 people, both totally equal and never having played the game before. One of them has a 20% faster reaction time. They are always going to win.

Now we have 2 other identical people. One of them has played longer and is 1 level higher and has 20% higher stats.

They are always going to win.

 

It doesn't matter what the scale is. In both cases the fight was decided before it ever happened.

 

 

You forget about RNG. The slower guy crit twice in a row, and he wins.

Surely, ON AVERAGE, the guy with higher stats will win more, and he has a higher CHANCE of winning. But the outcome is NOT deterministic because the mechanics have RNG (and pretty BIG RNG in some cases) built in.

In fact, there are also RNG in the player too. You slept better last night and your reaction time is 20% faster. You play at a less conjested time and you have less lag.


Actually I made a post about just that topic a while ago.

You are right. That in fact supports the point I was making. The same function only in a much more black box way is what causes the football teams in the other poster's example to switch around so much.

The illusion that he is under is produced because you cannot figure out why you won or lost as easily in pure PvP. The player BELIEVES they are in control of their fate when the reason they lost isn't out in the open. That is why people refer to an artificial advantage.

Now obviously in some games this can get pretty ridiculous. Like being 5 levels higher and being able to kill 4 people 5 levels lower at once. But that is more incredibly shitty design than a fault of stat based progression.

 

  Tuchaka

Novice Member

Joined: 4/14/10
Posts: 458

3/15/12 12:43:13 PM#158

....because too many games treat pvp as a niche bolted on feature that you add on to a pve centered game, you want great pvp you must design a game with pvp in mind from the ground up, doesn't mean you have to neglect pve in favor of pvp , but pvp must be your focus from a design standpoint in all phases of a game ......that is why .....

  Gardavsshade

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/27/11
Posts: 621

3/15/12 12:50:37 PM#159

voted Yes.

I am for the record a 100% PvE Player now.... I voted Yes because for years I have seen several PvP MMOs get released, but none of them hold a candle to DAoC's RvR PvP for DAoC pre-TOA. I used to PvP back then so I know a little about it at least.

As to why can't we get a good PvP centric MMO made?

Simple. The decision makers are not PvPers.

The people in the MMO Industry that make the design decisions on how MMOs are made are NOT PvP Players. Not anymore anyways. They are Investors, Accountants, Marketers, etc. They are too busy in real life to take the time that is really needed to play MMOs as a PvP Player. They have probably played a few times, entered a few arenas or world PvP... just enough to be able to look a stock holder in the face and say "Yes I PvP".

That doesn't mean they have any more of a clue how to PvP than I do.

If you don't know how to PvP it is almost impossible for you to create a good PvP MMO.... only by getting really Lucky can you pull it off.

When MMOs were first made years ago almost all the decision makers were Players and most were PvPers. If you want a good PvP MMO find a Dev Team that also makes the real decisions for content and features, and who are also PvP Players.

Hint: The RePopulation.


Nothing to see here... just another MMO Ghost....

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