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3/14/12 4:23:56 PM#141
Originally posted by Yamota
I don't much care about what you think make sense or not. Games are for entertainment, not a reflection of real world. E-sport is good entertainment to many. It is popular. It is here to stay. I mean, you are a wizard thorwing fireballs at living trees ... riiiight .... |
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Cuathon
Hard Core Member
Joined: 10/24/04
Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us. |
3/14/12 4:26:53 PM#142
Originally posted by nariusseldon
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3/14/12 4:28:16 PM#143
DAoC is still up and running :) "Well, there was a time when I was quick to judge others based on what little I'd heard. But... traveling with even the worst, slimiest, smelliest of tieflings and no-honor tree-worshipping elves has taught me some of them are all right." -Khelgar Ironfist |
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3/14/12 10:07:27 PM#144
Originally posted by Yamota We should carry that idea to its logical conclusion "the fault of the developers, which is the fault of the market demand." Games where PVP is fundamentally not about skillful competition are in extremely low demand in the grand scheme of things. LOL-style games aren't just "on the rise". They've been the norm. Forever. Remember Soccer? Chess? Go? Skill is the focus of the overwhelming majority of competitive games. You don't start with an extra Queen after 100 games of Chess because Chess is about skill, not time investment. You also don't get to bring 2 friends (with their own sets of pieces) into a Chess match because it's about skill, not outnumbering your opponent. For every game like EVE or UO (PVP where population and progress are strong influences) there are literally thousands of other competitive games that remain focused on skill. And why is that? Well it brings the post full-circle: because the market demands it. |
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3/14/12 10:13:15 PM#145
Originally posted by Cuathon You refuse to listen. I've explained it ad nauseum. I've explained it several times in my previous post. And I'm just not gonna explain again to someone who doesn't want to see it.
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3/14/12 10:19:10 PM#146
Originally posted by Angier2758 Nice blanket insult bud. Thanks a bunch. I'm a PvP player and I definitely do know what I *really* want. And I have never once played SWTOR, could tell it was a PvE snooze-fest WoW clone from looking at the company website for it. |
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Cuathon
Hard Core Member
Joined: 10/24/04
Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us. |
3/14/12 10:20:58 PM#147
Originally posted by Axehilt
If I start a new MMO I do not get an extra 20 levels because I completed the entire hardmode of raids in WoW. That is the proper comparison to chess. |
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3/14/12 10:23:51 PM#148
Originally posted by kaiser3282 And not even regarding twitch... a person who knows the game can beat a good twitch player, WITHOUT artificial (poof: you're 20% better) mechanics. You don't need good twitch skills to play chess, but you DO need to know the game. And the person that knows the game best wins. That's what makes the game relevent in our computer screen world. What I'm asking out of an MMO is that all those things mean something. NOT, "I've played the game the most, so I have some advantage ASIDE from the simple fact that I played the most." YOU ARE NOT CLEVER due to being higher level. You've just been doing it longer, and with that being the case, the experience itself should matter; not some artificial "you're 20% better" nonsense. |
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3/14/12 10:30:34 PM#149
Originally posted by Cuathon Noooooo. that's going from Chess to Monopoly. Chess is Chess. Your experience matters as much as you're capable of using it, but it doesn't give you extra pieces. |
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Cuathon
Hard Core Member
Joined: 10/24/04
Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us. |
3/14/12 10:32:59 PM#150
Originally posted by Robsolf You refuse to listen. I've explained it ad nauseum. I've explained it several times in my previous post. And I'm just not gonna explain again to someone who doesn't want to see it. See I can write the same t hing because the argument looks identical to me from my side. I explained it and you refuse to accept it. You have not explained why the fight is not decided from the start because you are 20% better at twitch, or intelligence, or latency in connection. The other person has just as little chance to win as the person fighting against someone with 20% larger health pool. We have 2 people, both totally equal and never having played the game before. One of them has a 20% faster reaction time. They are always going to win. Now we have 2 other identical people. One of them has played longer and is 1 level higher and has 20% higher stats. They are always going to win.
It doesn't matter what the scale is. In both cases the fight was decided before it ever happened. Now unless you have a reason why its different in one case then the other, I think we are at the end of our rope. Peace. |
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3/14/12 10:49:05 PM#151
Originally posted by Cuathon Telling the majority of players who want good PVP to "get past" their dislike for bad PVP isn't going to work. Your second game of Chess isn't Soccer, so your analogy makes no sense. Your second game of Chess is still Chess, but things are reset so that your decisions can be important and meaningful again. Much like arena PVP. Very unlike world PVP. Hence: people dislike bad PVP. |
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3/14/12 11:19:21 PM#152
There has to be a real reason to fight. PVP as the draw for it's own sake will fail. We have all seen it. In non-PVP games where they make a PVP server. LOL, Show me a themepark PVP server, and I'll show you a server with no PVP. Just a place that 's frustrating to level. That's all.
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3/15/12 9:04:32 AM#153
Hluill, a barbarian rogue, and his Warrior-daughter, Leyek |
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3/15/12 11:23:28 AM#154
Originally posted by Cuathon
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3/15/12 12:02:35 PM#155
There doesn't have to be a real reason. Ever played PONG? Everyone throws chess around. Ever had a reason to play chess? Yeah to have fun. PvP can be built around that idea. I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee. |
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3/15/12 12:16:16 PM#156
Originally posted by Cuathon
You forget about RNG. The slower guy crit twice in a row, and he wins. Surely, ON AVERAGE, the guy with higher stats will win more, and he has a higher CHANCE of winning. But the outcome is NOT deterministic because the mechanics have RNG (and pretty BIG RNG in some cases) built in. In fact, there are also RNG in the player too. You slept better last night and your reaction time is 20% faster. You play at a less conjested time and you have less lag. |
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Cuathon
Hard Core Member
Joined: 10/24/04
Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us. |
3/15/12 12:38:00 PM#157
Originally posted by nariusseldon
You are right. That in fact supports the point I was making. The same function only in a much more black box way is what causes the football teams in the other poster's example to switch around so much. The illusion that he is under is produced because you cannot figure out why you won or lost as easily in pure PvP. The player BELIEVES they are in control of their fate when the reason they lost isn't out in the open. That is why people refer to an artificial advantage. Now obviously in some games this can get pretty ridiculous. Like being 5 levels higher and being able to kill 4 people 5 levels lower at once. But that is more incredibly shitty design than a fault of stat based progression.
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3/15/12 12:43:13 PM#158
....because too many games treat pvp as a niche bolted on feature that you add on to a pve centered game, you want great pvp you must design a game with pvp in mind from the ground up, doesn't mean you have to neglect pve in favor of pvp , but pvp must be your focus from a design standpoint in all phases of a game ......that is why ..... |
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3/15/12 12:50:37 PM#159
voted Yes. I am for the record a 100% PvE Player now.... I voted Yes because for years I have seen several PvP MMOs get released, but none of them hold a candle to DAoC's RvR PvP for DAoC pre-TOA. I used to PvP back then so I know a little about it at least. As to why can't we get a good PvP centric MMO made? Simple. The decision makers are not PvPers. The people in the MMO Industry that make the design decisions on how MMOs are made are NOT PvP Players. Not anymore anyways. They are Investors, Accountants, Marketers, etc. They are too busy in real life to take the time that is really needed to play MMOs as a PvP Player. They have probably played a few times, entered a few arenas or world PvP... just enough to be able to look a stock holder in the face and say "Yes I PvP". That doesn't mean they have any more of a clue how to PvP than I do. If you don't know how to PvP it is almost impossible for you to create a good PvP MMO.... only by getting really Lucky can you pull it off. When MMOs were first made years ago almost all the decision makers were Players and most were PvPers. If you want a good PvP MMO find a Dev Team that also makes the real decisions for content and features, and who are also PvP Players. Hint: The RePopulation.  Nothing to see here... just another MMO Ghost.... |
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