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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Sub or no sub that is the question?!

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58 posts found
  User Deleted
 
OP  3/08/12 5:43:37 PM#41

@fiontar  great great post thank you for adding that!

  User Deleted
 
OP  3/08/12 5:47:07 PM#42

*just1opinion

 

I left RIFT to play LoL and was like yay a free to play game I spent  over $200 on LoL within the first 3 months because it wasn't forced cash shop and was something I wanted not needed...

 

I can see myself going buck wild in a cosmetic cash shop in GW2 if they offer great value for what I purchase.

 

that being said I can see how if done correctly Anet will make a killing on the item shop after they made a massive profit on the box sells.

  Guely

Novice Member

Joined: 10/18/08
Posts: 114

3/08/12 9:56:21 PM#43

I've never purchased a DLC or anything from a cash shop for any game. However, if GW2 is as good as I think it will be... I could justify it.

  just1opinion

Smart-Alek

Joined: 8/14/07
Posts: 4933

3/09/12 9:07:45 AM#44
Originally posted by phigety

*just1opinion

 

I left RIFT to play LoL and was like yay a free to play game I spent  over $200 on LoL within the first 3 months because it wasn't forced cash shop and was something I wanted not needed...

 

I can see myself going buck wild in a cosmetic cash shop in GW2 if they offer great value for what I purchase.

 

that being said I can see how if done correctly Anet will make a killing on the item shop after they made a massive profit on the box sells.

 

I totally agree.  I enjoyed the Station Cash Shop in EQ2 and bought some cool looking appearance gear in it and some furniture.  Of course, that was over the course of 7 years, so it's not like they were really making a killing off of me in the cash shop, but I did ENJOY it and the options it provided....nothing game changing as far as stats and whatnot, but just stuff I considered to be fun.

 

I'm actually looking forward to playing a B2P game with a shop.  I think it will just be all the more fun, but you know....that's my opinion and it's not all that popular around these forums here.  lol  :)

 

President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16745

3/09/12 9:16:15 AM#45
Originally posted by phigety

What are your thoughts about monthly subs? needed or not, why?

I don´t think monthly subs are needed today with the current cost of bandwidth and servers. That is why FPS games nowadays host the games themselves instead of letting the users host them like they did a few years back (and to stop cheating and guarantee a good connection of course).

But I can still pay monthly fees for a good game, and I am willing to pay for not having an itemshop, better customer support and free updates (preferably including the expansions like in CoH).

But I like B2P and I think GW2 and Class 4 will prove the concept to none believers. 

What I don't like is when P2P games add itemshops, I rather have them raise the fee than charging extra for content.

  Lucioon

Novice Member

Joined: 1/12/06
Posts: 840

3/09/12 9:21:21 AM#46
Originally posted by phigety

Most people I know have been gaming for many many years and have partaken in many of the games over the last few years.  Some of them Pay to play some free to play.   thousands of people played LoTro when it was a sub and now when it went free many more who would have never looked at the game prior are now playing it.  Many games have seen greater profit and greater freedom for players by switching to a free to play platform.

back in the day it cost a ton to run servers and maintain the high speed internet to connect games online which is mainly why monthly subs were needed.  Other reasons did exist but the main reason was to maintain servers and connectivity..

I've seen many people say that because GW2 is Box purchase then free after makes it not worth playing.  Others are happy that its not a sub after purchase.   Why do you think it makes a difference if it does not have a monthly sub?  Do you feel the box price is not enough and the monthly sub is needed for some reason?

 

Developers and Publishers in other games have recently proven that a great game does not need a sub to maintain good support and quality updates.  Anet has even proven that by offering Box price on original and for expansions that it can more then cover quality support and maintain quality server maintanence / content / expansions.

 

I personally have played nearly all games which have been on the market in the last 10 years.  From F2P, B2P, and P2P.  I know that the F2P games attract a less desirable type of player and that in the past P2P has seemed to provide higher quality content expansions as well as customer service / support and an all around better quality game.

 

Sharing in the questionable reasoning on no continued sub fee after box purchase makes me curious as to continued income and continued quality after release.

 

At the time GW was released at box price only and compared to the games on the market at its time, it was above most in quality and continued content.

 

The market has proven that the free to play model with cosmetic cash shop drives higher revenue then a monthly sub.  So for not having a monthly sub why would that make this any less of a game or not intrigue people even more so to play it?

 

My thought is I'd rather see this game have a box price + cosmetic only cash shop which gives Anet MORE money then sub monthly on average so that Anet can provide further quality customer service / content expansions then stay with the sub model which has proven to be un needed to help a company produce what people think will be missing without it.

When they compared monthly subs vs cash shop they found that monthly sub = $15 a month but on average players in cash shop models spent $20+ a month so with this knowledge Anets model will bring them more income.

 

What are your thoughts about monthly subs? needed or not, why?

** edited ** watch this then bring on the debate

When you have no Subscriptions, you arn't trying to tailor to the masses or to create a invisible grind just to keep the subscribers.

The way GW2 does it is they can challenge the current MMO format without trying to steal WOW players, they can create the game they want to create. They can make Dungeons extra hard, because when you quit, you aren't quitting, you are just taking a break. They don't have to tune down the difficulties because the masses wants an easy mode, they aren't losing anything by making dungeons even harder and more frustrating. They balance the classes because they want to, not because they have to or risk losing subscribers. Its because to have a better experience they are balancing them.

These calls to nerfs that is so common in every MMO will have no weight because you can quit anytime you want because once you buy it, you own it. With the PVP scaling to full level 80 with all skills means, if you find one character class too strong, you can always create that same class and play in PVP without having to spend anytime doing PVE just to level.

Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.

  athariel

Novice Member

Joined: 8/18/10
Posts: 91

3/09/12 9:22:03 AM#47

For me there is a more important issue in sub vs no-sub. More important than who pays for content and how.

 

Stop buying boxes in GW1/GW2 - play the content you paid for how long you want

Stop buying boxes in WoW - play the content you paid for as long as you also pay the sub

Stop paying sub in WoW - no playing for you at all, even for the xpacs you paid for 

  User Deleted
3/09/12 9:28:02 AM#48
Originally posted by SuperXero89

Can a GW2 fan explain to me why you have MMORPGs that sold a lot of boxes eventually shut down because they are no longer profitable if subscription fees do not matter?

I ask because in comparison to sub-based games, GW2 felt cheaply made, lacked the depth and breadth of content of a P2P MMORPG, and had a very short lifespan.  Just because GW2 has persistant areas outside of towns and outposts isn't enough to subside my fears that GW2 may end up the same way.

 

GW1 graphics were good for the time it was released, and with the content from all 3 expansion packs it has far more content than any other MMO I can think of aside from Everquest 1 with its 18 expansions.

Short lifespan? People still play the game for competitive PvP. The outposts still have heaps of people doing all the hard mode missions to try and complete all the content. Considering that the game was released in 2005 and last expansion was in 2007, the game is doing very well in terms of lifespan.

Upon returning to WoW it took me less than 2 months to level a new character to 85 and complete every single dungeon and raid. The same couldnt be said for GW1, theres way more content.

  Cetra

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/05/04
Posts: 371

3/09/12 9:34:15 AM#49

Game good, people pay. Company profits.

Game is shit, no one will play even if its free. The game will close down eventually.

f2p,b2p,p2p it doesnt matter.

 

  Skarecrow7

Novice Member

Joined: 12/15/10
Posts: 342

3/09/12 10:05:01 AM#50

I am going to keep a watch on Diablo 3. I know it isn't a "mmorpg" BUT you will need to be connected to blizzard at all times to play. That right there proves you dont need that $15 for bandwidth cost. If they start adding $10 dlc's every few months or even some free patches and upgrades... well then what is the difference besides game play?  When did MMO start meaning $15 a month instead of Massive multiplayer on-line? 

 

(oh, and I am NOT buying Diablo 3. Loved the other two, but I refuse to buy an ubisoft game with that drm in it, not going to change my mind because blizzard suddenly says it is a good idea)

 

  Unlight

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 2586

3/09/12 10:43:03 AM#51
Originally posted by SuperXero89

Can a GW2 fan explain to me why you have MMORPGs that sold a lot of boxes eventually shut down because they are no longer profitable if subscription fees do not matter?

I ask because in comparison to sub-based games, GW2 felt cheaply made, lacked the depth and breadth of content of a P2P MMORPG, and had a very short lifespan.  Just because GW2 has persistant areas outside of towns and outposts isn't enough to subside my fears that GW2 may end up the same way.

Assuming you were talking about GW1 and not 2:

That's your opinion only.  I personally, along with many others, found GW1's content beefy and engaging for months and years after the initial purchase.  Because you didn't feel the same way doesn't mean that the game didn't deliver.  It just didn't deliver to you.

That being said, I question the notion that P2P delivers more simply because of the pricing model.  WoW has released four expansions over a period of approximately 8 years.  That's a two year wait between them (on average).  At $15 per month, subscribers were paying $360 before they saw any new material coming out.  And then they paid a box fee on top of it all.  With GW1, which released a few months after WoW, there were two full expansions before Burning Crusade even hit the shelves, and then we only paid for the box.  Everything else was still free.

You can compare the quality and quantity of those expansions if you like and you may well come to the conclusion that BC took longer to complete than the other two combined.  However, once you remove the artificial treadmill gear grind of raiding, it's lead disappears.  But again, if you didn't enjoy GW1 as a game, you aren't going to see it that way.

I'm using WoW here only because it's the Mac Daddy of P2P games, but the amount of enjoyable playtime I got from GW1 is comparable to any of the subscription games I've played, regardless of how much I enjoyed them.  I think the only P2P game I played more than GW1 was City of Villains (back before it was joined at the hip to CoH), and that's only because I was a hopeless badge whore.

So anyway, I dispute that P2P games automatically provide more entertainment value than games released under another model.  That's not been my experience.  And really, my experience is the only one that counts -- just like everyone else.

Oh, and as for cheaply made, at the time, I thought it was the prettiest game world I'd ever stepped foot in.  Today, it still holds it's own against many, more contemporary releases, especially pre-searing, which is still the definition of idyllic.

  ariboersma

Novice Member

Joined: 9/26/11
Posts: 1817

3/09/12 11:24:16 AM#52
Originally posted by Sarielle

This video does a great job of explaining why subs are unnecessary in a very logical way. Great view, imo, and does a better job explaining than I could. :)

 

 

Woodenpotatoes is amazing, great voice, great opinions and well brought facts.. I was sad they didn't let him in the press beta or that he couldn't get anyones footage to talk about :(

  ariboersma

Novice Member

Joined: 9/26/11
Posts: 1817

3/09/12 11:25:19 AM#53
Originally posted by Unlight
Originally posted by SuperXero89

Can a GW2 fan explain to me why you have MMORPGs that sold a lot of boxes eventually shut down because they are no longer profitable if subscription fees do not matter?

I ask because in comparison to sub-based games, GW2 felt cheaply made, lacked the depth and breadth of content of a P2P MMORPG, and had a very short lifespan.  Just because GW2 has persistant areas outside of towns and outposts isn't enough to subside my fears that GW2 may end up the same way.

Assuming you were talking about GW1 and not 2:

That's your opinion only.  I personally, along with many others, found GW1's content beefy and engaging for months and years after the initial purchase.  Because you didn't feel the same way doesn't mean that the game didn't deliver.  It just didn't deliver to you.

That being said, I question the notion that P2P delivers more simply because of the pricing model.  WoW has released four expansions over a period of approximately 8 years.  That's a two year wait between them (on average).  At $15 per month, subscribers were paying $360 before they saw any new material coming out.  And then they paid a box fee on top of it all.  With GW1, which released a few months after WoW, there were two full expansions before Burning Crusade even hit the shelves, and then we only paid for the box.  Everything else was still free.

You can compare the quality and quantity of those expansions if you like and you may well come to the conclusion that BC took longer to complete than the other two combined.  However, once you remove the artificial treadmill gear grind of raiding, it's lead disappears.  But again, if you didn't enjoy GW1 as a game, you aren't going to see it that way.

I'm using WoW here only because it's the Mac Daddy of P2P games, but the amount of enjoyable playtime I got from GW1 is comparable to any of the subscription games I've played, regardless of how much I enjoyed them.  I think the only P2P game I played more than GW1 was City of Villains (back before it was joined at the hip to CoH), and that's only because I was a hopeless badge whore.

So anyway, I dispute that P2P games automatically provide more entertainment value than games released under another model.  That's not been my experience.  And really, my experience is the only one that counts -- just like everyone else.

Oh, and as for cheaply made, at the time, I thought it was the prettiest game world I'd ever stepped foot in.  Today, it still holds it's own against many, more contemporary releases, especially pre-searing, which is still the definition of idyllic.

Unlight we don't always agree, but I agree totally with you here!

  User Deleted
3/09/12 11:32:03 AM#54

Other than WoW it is the most successful franchise so it does not need to start charging montly fees.

  User Deleted
 
OP  3/09/12 1:02:16 PM#55

Totally agree about woodpotato he made some seriously eye opening arguments concerning subs are not needed and people are starting to realise this.

 

"The ONLY reason a monthy sub is around is because the consumer allows it."

  MosesZD

Novice Member

Joined: 2/10/12
Posts: 1407

3/09/12 4:28:57 PM#56
Originally posted by SuperXero89

Can a GW2 fan explain to me why you have MMORPGs that sold a lot of boxes eventually shut down because they are no longer profitable if subscription fees do not matter?

I ask because in comparison to sub-based games, GW2 felt cheaply made, lacked the depth and breadth of content of a P2P MMORPG, and had a very short lifespan.  Just because GW2 has persistant areas outside of towns and outposts isn't enough to subside my fears that GW2 may end up the same way.

 

Better made than SWTOR.   Better made than AoC.  Better made the Warhammer.   Need I go on?

  MosesZD

Novice Member

Joined: 2/10/12
Posts: 1407

3/09/12 4:34:59 PM#57
Originally posted by Unlight
Originally posted by SuperXero89

Can a GW2 fan explain to me why you have MMORPGs that sold a lot of boxes eventually shut down because they are no longer profitable if subscription fees do not matter?

I ask because in comparison to sub-based games, GW2 felt cheaply made, lacked the depth and breadth of content of a P2P MMORPG, and had a very short lifespan.  Just because GW2 has persistant areas outside of towns and outposts isn't enough to subside my fears that GW2 may end up the same way.

Assuming you were talking about GW1 and not 2:

That's your opinion only.  I personally, along with many others, found GW1's content beefy and engaging for months and years after the initial purchase.  Because you didn't feel the same way doesn't mean that the game didn't deliver.  It just didn't deliver to you.

That being said, I question the notion that P2P delivers more simply because of the pricing model.  WoW has released four expansions over a period of approximately 8 years.  That's a two year wait between them (on average).  At $15 per month, subscribers were paying $360 before they saw any new material coming out.  And then they paid a box fee on top of it all.  With GW1, which released a few months after WoW, there were two full expansions before Burning Crusade even hit the shelves, and then we only paid for the box.  Everything else was still free.

You can compare the quality and quantity of those expansions if you like and you may well come to the conclusion that BC took longer to complete than the other two combined.  However, once you remove the artificial treadmill gear grind of raiding, it's lead disappears.  But again, if you didn't enjoy GW1 as a game, you aren't going to see it that way.

I'm using WoW here only because it's the Mac Daddy of P2P games, but the amount of enjoyable playtime I got from GW1 is comparable to any of the subscription games I've played, regardless of how much I enjoyed them.  I think the only P2P game I played more than GW1 was City of Villains (back before it was joined at the hip to CoH), and that's only because I was a hopeless badge whore.

So anyway, I dispute that P2P games automatically provide more entertainment value than games released under another model.  That's not been my experience.  And really, my experience is the only one that counts -- just like everyone else.

Oh, and as for cheaply made, at the time, I thought it was the prettiest game world I'd ever stepped foot in.  Today, it still holds it's own against many, more contemporary releases, especially pre-searing, which is still the definition of idyllic.

 

This.  

 

I've never made it out of free-trial with WoW.  I didn't make it out of free-trial with Rift.   I was one-month-and-done with SWTOR.    Of the three, Rift was the most interesting and SWTOR so bad I still shudder...    I could have gotten into WoW but I just hate the aesthetics of the game.   They're not bad, just not my style...

 

As for GW, I played GW for years.   I only quit because I was in a GW lull and my old computer blew up.  By the time I got that all straightened out, I just didn't feel like going back because I (mistakenly) thought GW2 would be out June of last year...   Plus I was still having a blast playing LOTRO.

  User Deleted
3/09/12 4:40:54 PM#58

Paying money when im not online is so last season.

 

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