Originally posted by Zekiah

I suppose it was right around the time that posting supportive threads about a game became "fanboyism". 

It's the same thing.   Irrationality.   If you're tired of being called a fanboy, look in the mirror.   Every game I play I see the good and the bad.  I have no problem acknowledging the good and the bad.   I have no problem explaining why your 'good' doesn't work for me or why my 'bad' overwhelms your good.

So, maybe you like the crap stories in SWTOR.   I think they're crap.   I've read better fan fiction.    And I've partially read some of the out-side work these BioWare writers do and their commercial work, if it weren't the equivalent of self-pubilishing, wouldn't get published.   The best of them is mediocre at best.   And I'm not expecting Roger Zelazny at his finest.   Or NK Jemison.  Or CJ Cherreyh.  Or Alistar Reynolds.   Or Philip K Dick.   Or some other Nebula/Hugo winning author.    I understand not everyone can write high-quality fiction.    But they're just so mailing it in anymore.   They're like Vanilla Ice, a one-hit wonder who is still trying to remain relevent: 

http://www.imdb.com/news/ni22132445/

But if you like them.  Fine.   I may, or may not,  think you have base and underdeveloped tastes, but so be it as my feelings about your taste in games/stories are irrelevent.   

But, as a pure hypothetical, when you start throwing around stupid phony-factual stuff that is blatently not true.  When you start denying reality.   When you say factual, independent third-party data, which is unbiased, true and useful in modeling and statistical analysis is false...   When you blame people who have high-performace, super-maintained, non-junked up computers for the lousy engine?  When you blame computer owners for the client's memory leaks?  When you blame computer owners for the fact the dev can't even implement DX9 graphics properly?

Then, yeah, expect the insult.     You can like the stories.  You can even think they're good.   Power to you, glad you're enjoying the game.   But when you've got a clearly fouled up game from a technical aspect game and all you can do is insult people with high-quality game rigs and tell them "L2P"  "Enjoy your Pandas" and "There's no such bug (which is fixed in the next patch)"...     Yeah.    People who are having real issues with the crap programming might not treat you all that kindly...

Originally posted by Laughing-man

Originally posted by Sagasaint

Originally posted by Miner-2049er

I read your review on TERA and a lot of it made good sense. Still in the end you gave the game a score of 4.8 which compared to any review sites is a pretty pathetic score.

Bearing in mind that this is a game that actually works, looks good, and brings at least one significant new idea to the genre it is a simply an unrealistic grade. Also in your posts you have a tendency not just to give your own feelings but to try and tell people what they should think - this is never a particularly attractive trait.

I DO agree with you that many people are very quick to shout Fanboi or Troll. However, if you want to avoid such comments you should avoid baiting people by continuously questioning their own viewpoint.

I completely agree with you that consumers have the right to demand progress. Despite this I am actually really looking forward to TERA and no matter how much you tell me I'm wrong it is still my opinion. You assume people are all acting like mindless sheep, when in reality we just have a different opinion. People may call you a troll because you appear determined to persue an argument as opposed to just accepting the alternative opinions.

basically this

good post

I third this?

Your score was far too low for the review you gave...  You yourself even toted it had redeeming qualities yet you rated it worse than some people rated Duke Nukem Forever...

Ouch?

 

Thats why they think you are trolling, because your score does not reflect the game.

Did you read my scoring system? I can't change the final average score when it relys on AVERAGING using math :)!

Here's the way I broke it down:

Final Tera "Impression" Score:

-Gameplay: 6

-FunFactor: 5

-Sustainability: 3

-Graphics: 8

-Innovation: 4

-Crafting: 3

-Misc: The Glyph system is an interesting spin on differentiating classes. However, it's FAR too limiting to have any real effect, and only further enforces FOTM builds.

Average Score: 4.8

I gave the game a "Gameplay" score of 6, because I felt that overall it was a polished product, and although the linearized approach EME took with TERA hurt the score quite a bit, the combat system as well as other smaller aspect each added to this score to round it to a 6.

I gave the game a "FunFactor" score of 5 considering the game itself gets VERY VERY VERY boring around midgame trying your hardest to "grind" through to the bits of the game that were actually "good". It went from a score of 7 to 5 when I sat down and objectively realized how poor a design it is to put the "fun" part of the game at the end of a MASSIVE grind. It only scares customers away thinking that's all there is to TERA. This may have been more biased than I originally intended it to be considering TERA would do perfectly well if they had spread the "fun bits" throughout the game rather than bunching it all at "end-game", thus it received a -2 rounding it out to a 5.

I gave the game a "Sustainability" score of 3 considering I hear every day about how people are so tired of the Linear system of "Grinding to end-game for raids, and the actual part of the game they're interested in" rather than the journey being the whole reason they set out in the first place to play TERA. Add on to the fact that each class has very little replayability other than trying to learn a completely new class. Most people I've encountered have a specific playstyle in mind, and once you're completely grinded-out of end-game content you either quit, wait for new content, or reroll a new character to keep your interests alive. TERA, at several looks into what it actually "is", just didn't seem like a sustainable product past X number of months. Albeit as more content is released this will change, but it's not a good sign when it releases to begin with in this context. Heck, even SWTOR's devs knew this was a HUGE pitfall of their product so they spent the past 6months prior to release bugfixing & creating a TON of content for people to burn through post release. TERA, just doesn't have this.

As for the Graphics I really don't believe I have to speak on this point. A solid score of 8 was well deserved by TERA for their art direction & overall control of "Special Lightning" effects such as Bloom. They didn't go overboard, and didn't skimp of shiney things :).

Lastly, I'll group BOTH Innovation and Crafting into the same thought since they technical are directly related to each other more closely than any other point that I've made so far. The crafting system was completely mundane, and was not thought out well at all. Crafted was nothing more than a "money sink" in order to control inflation, and craft items are ONLY better at "end game", or level cap. Meaning, there's no point other than spend tons of gold on crafting in order to FINALLY be able to make something useful when your character is done leveling. The ONLY innovative part of TERA was their combat system, and even that wasn't enough to bring it up to above a 5 simply because it has so many negatives going for it.

Using MATH, it came out to a 4.8 (granted much lower than I expected my overall score to be). However, I'll stick to the score I gave because overall it feels right for TERA being a NEW product to be released in a global market. If they allowed a broader choice for leveling, made crafting worthwhile, and overall focused on the SOCIAL aspect of what it is to play an MMO then it'd probably reach around a 6 or 6.5.

Again, I understand differening opinions, and how they effect a individuals view on a game. I just don't think it would be fair to give TERA  better than a 6.5 considering all of its lowballing flaws that people intentionally ignore to HYPE TERA up to be such a great product. Sure, it's a decent one, but it's not what the industry as a whole needs to continue pumping out.

Sorry if I rambled on, but it seemed to me that overall people were ONLY looking @ the average score, and NOT how I personally judged the game in its individual aspects. I did this BECAUSE of different opinions people bring towards a product & how they judge it. So, if people enjoy the Linearized approach that TERA is then some parts of the individual score could be omitted for that particular set of individuals setting the game up to be an average score of 6.

I hope that makes more sense than simply saying "you scored the game at a 4.8, little low don't you think?" :D!

Originally posted by TyvolusNext

Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Today I had the point brought up in a PM from another board about how posting ANYTHING that is critical of a product has become "trolling or "hate" for a specific product.

I myself can relate to this considering the fact that I've been called a "troll" or "hater" numerous times in the past on these forums for posting critical insights into specific products & reasonings behind them.

Somehow, somewhere along the way, it has become a BAD THING to judge a product from a logical standpoint of measuring a product up to its previous competitors in terms of quality & content. Once a product releases to the public all its previous competitor's releases through history don't just disappear. The same goes for pre-release states as well.

I've been around the MMO market for quite a LONG time (sometimes I feel like an uber nerd for saying this, but heh), and I've seen the "Grab & Scoots", the "OverHype for initial profit", the "Bait & Switch", and the "We promised, but changed out minds" approach from publishers & developers alike over the years. However, somehow pointing out these pitfalls to other individuals to avoid has become a taboo in the industry. Why?

 

When did expecting MMOs, and gaming in general, to evolve & actually become BETTER than previous incarnations become something we shouldn't do?

When did people start claiming that Review sites like IGN, MMORPG, etc etc were unbiased? The very nature of posting a Review or "First Impression" or "Preview" is to BE biased based on your prior experience with a product in general. It is IMPOSSIBLE to expect a view of a product to be unbiased. The very nature of it demands the Author to BE biased. It's what you're looking for. A shred of "I've been there, done this, and I know you have to..." in an Author's writing towards a product that you value so much. Why start demanding the impossible, or diminishing their views based on the fact that the impossible can't be achieved?

 

I don't know about you, but the day someone cannot post critical information about a specific product is the day gaming as a whole dies a horrible suffering death. At least for me, it is up to the CONSUMER to demand innovation & progress for the games we love so much. Speaking from a business standpoint it is absolutely unthinkable for a business to repeat the same mistakes year after year after year never changing their product to suit its audience.

 

To reuse the old-beaten horse analogy: "Would you buy a NEW TV if it was EXACTLY the same as its previous incarnation from 10yrs ago if the only thing that changes was its outside appearance (casing)? No, and neither should you for an MMO or game in general".

 

As always, thank you for reading,

-Faded :)

A fair question.  however I am a bit curious why you arent MORE concerned with the flip side to all this...why anytime, anyone likes a certain game they are a fanboi ?  Legit question and I do not know the answer -- have you ever called anyone a fanboi in any threads ?

Although I have over 1000 posts, I'd be quick to acknowledge that I've never called someone (to my knowledge) a "fanboi".

Generally speaking I HATE the terms "Fanboi" and "Troll". They're quick & demeaning ways to indentify someone, destroy their credibility with no effort on your end, and easy excuses to ignore someone's point without considering it thoughtfully.

I've also asked this question multiple times as to why people quickly claim "Fanboism" or "Trolling"? I think I made a thread about it actually quite some time ago :)!

Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Originally posted by Miner-2049er

...see above

I've tried my best over time to disconnect myself from the "this is how it SHOULD be" route simply because it DOES sound like I'm telling people what they SHOULD think. This, however, is never what I aim for, and in fact I try to strive for the opposite approach in favor on a "MAYBE this is how you should look at it"?

 

I appologize if any of my posts come off as "THINK THIS, NOW!" as it's very hard to word something in such a way that isn't in that context.

 

Also, I felt the 4.8 was a "reasonable" score considering it would have been lower had the game LACKED a political aspect to it on release & the combat system having been tab targeted. Please keep in mind however that you most likely will NEVER see anything above an 8 from me given the current climate of the market copying each other to try and steal each other's profits.

However, had you asked me to grade DAOC 6years ago (a product a still hold dear to my heart as one of the BEST MMO experience I've ever heard, right above UO) I would have given it a 7 or 8. Nothing unrealistic to me, however nothing completely outrageous either.

 

:)

I agree with you that it is difficult at times to convey your exact feelings in a written form. People will interpret your comments differently, and some people will post replies only having read part of what you've written (sometimes just the subject). Perhaps the answer to your question does lie in the fact that people (me included I'm sure) are quick to jump to conclusions and many posters appear to have distinctly polarised views. Appearing like a troll at times is probably better than never giving an opinion. Your post is certainly generating some interest, in itself.

Your game scores are harsh (particularly out of context). I guess this is why your written review seemed more reasonable to me than the mark you gave. As I have said, some people would only read the overall score you left.

I do not agree with other posters that blame this predominantly on the young. I suspect there are many posters, of all ages, who actively seek online antagonism just to get attention.

One final point:

If a person calls you a troll then I suspect they are themselves trolling. I see little reason ever to call someone a troll (or fanboi) unless looking for forum PvP.

Originally posted by RefMinor
Happily I don't care what you scored it, it won't make me play or not, so I am neither happy nor disappointed by it.

A completely respectable viewpoint. However, it was more of an elaboration for the people who pointed out why the "average" score was so low ;).

Originally posted by AvatarBlade

Originally posted by Charas

MMOs mostly appeal to young people searching for an identity.

They associate very strongly (and emotionally) with their ingame avatars and with the games they choose to call home.

If you criticize a game, they (the ones that aren't too bright at least) see your comments as an attack on their very person and react violently by calling you names and by trying to discredit you.

People who love a game but are mature enough to be emotionally detached from it don't go ape sh*t when you critize their game.

Don't equate age to maturity level. Beside that, yes some people invest a part of them in the game, identify themselves with the game and it happens not only in video games.

Agreed. For example....imagine the response you'd get from this guy if you said his team sucks:

Whenever someone says you're weird for being a gamer - show them this picture. This guy would be called "cool" because of his "devotion" to football. But go to a gaming or sci-fi con and dress up like you're favorite avatar and you're a freak :)

I don't know about you - but this guy qualifies as a freak to me lol

Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Originally posted by RefMinor
Happily I don't care what you scored it, it won't make me play or not, so I am neither happy nor disappointed by it.

A completely respectable viewpoint. However, it was more of an elaboration for the people who pointed out why the "average" score was so low ;).

Originally posted by MosesZD

Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Today I had the point brought up in a PM from another board about how posting ANYTHING that is critical of a product has become "trolling or "hate" for a specific product.

I myself can relate to this considering the fact that I've been called a "troll" or "hater" numerous times in the past on these forums for posting critical insights into specific products & reasonings behind them.

 

 

Since SWTOR flopped...    

I have to admit I chuckled, and then realized I had no idea what you're referencing to. Could you elaborate :3?

Originally posted by echolynfan

Originally posted by AvatarBlade

Originally posted by Charas

MMOs mostly appeal to young people searching for an identity.

They associate very strongly (and emotionally) with their ingame avatars and with the games they choose to call home.

If you criticize a game, they (the ones that aren't too bright at least) see your comments as an attack on their very person and react violently by calling you names and by trying to discredit you.

People who love a game but are mature enough to be emotionally detached from it don't go ape sh*t when you critize their game.

Don't equate age to maturity level. Beside that, yes some people invest a part of them in the game, identify themselves with the game and it happens not only in video games.

Agreed. For example....imagine the response you'd get from this guy if you said his team sucks:

Whenever someone says you're weird for being a gamer - show them this picture. This guy would be called "cool" because of his "devotion" to football. But go to a gaming or sci-fi con and dress up like you're favorite avatar and you're a freak :)

I don't know about you - but this guy qualifies as a freak to me lol

Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Originally posted by MosesZD

Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Today I had the point brought up in a PM from another board about how posting ANYTHING that is critical of a product has become "trolling or "hate" for a specific product.

I myself can relate to this considering the fact that I've been called a "troll" or "hater" numerous times in the past on these forums for posting critical insights into specific products & reasonings behind them.

 

 

Since SWTOR flopped...    

I have to admit I chuckled, and then realized I had no idea what you're referencing to. Could you elaborate :3?

Originally posted by ShakyMo

I got a warning for posting on the would you play wow 2 thread, for saying something like "ive played wow 2 and 3 they are called rift and swtor", I guess some people can't take a joke, I personally don't see that as trolling.

It was quite a good joke too - made me laugh.

I think the Mod is overreacting - it's not trolling. Your comment was certainly more insightful than inciting.

(I just went back and checked your profile just to check a suspicion I had - It's a UK thing I reckon - I suspect that the British humour may be different to the moderators)

Originally posted by echolynfan

Originally posted by AvatarBlade

Originally posted by Charas

MMOs mostly appeal to young people searching for an identity.

They associate very strongly (and emotionally) with their ingame avatars and with the games they choose to call home.

If you criticize a game, they (the ones that aren't too bright at least) see your comments as an attack on their very person and react violently by calling you names and by trying to discredit you.

People who love a game but are mature enough to be emotionally detached from it don't go ape sh*t when you critize their game.

Don't equate age to maturity level. Beside that, yes some people invest a part of them in the game, identify themselves with the game and it happens not only in video games.

Agreed. For example....imagine the response you'd get from this guy if you said his team sucks:

Whenever someone says you're weird for being a gamer - show them this picture. This guy would be called "cool" because of his "devotion" to football. But go to a gaming or sci-fi con and dress up like you're favorite avatar and you're a freak :)

I don't know about you - but this guy qualifies as a freak to me lol

Subjectivity is the name of the game for many. I myself don't get "it" with regards to dressing up for a football game where grown men tackle each other causing brain-damage over time for points over a fake-leather ball.

However, subjectivity allows me NOT to care about football, and allows me to only have interests within my spectrum of reality. I think this is why it's so easy for people to be labeled differently than individuals you yourself may consider "normal".

I'm still not sure why I think dressing up in a "Space Marine" fully-functional costume would be boss as hell. I guess it's just one of those "things" :P?

Originally posted by RefMinor
From the Rules of Conduct:

 

"Trolling

Posting excessive negative comments or baiting others to respond in a negative manner is considered trolling on the MMORPG.com forums. For example: If there is one game that you did not enjoy, voicing your opinion is encouraged. Posting this opinion in every thread concerning that game to the point that it disrupts all other conversation is not tolerated."

 

Although I am not sure if an exemption may have been negotiated for the Mortal Online forum. Also ending every post with "Flame On! " might also be on the exemption list (you know who you are Mr)

That sounds about right, to me.  It's one thing to express dissatisfaction in a game, particularly if you're talking about specific things you don't like about a game.  But permeating every thread topic for a game with, "This suxxorz, and anybody that likes it is an idiot!  UMADBRO?" is something different entirely.

The king of eeyore trolling seems to have left altogether or was banned, or maybe found something better to do with his Precious time.  Since I can't think of anything LESS productive than bitching about games you don't like all day, it shouldn't be surprising.

Originally posted by Miner-2049er

Originally posted by ShakyMo

I got a warning for posting on the would you play wow 2 thread, for saying something like "ive played wow 2 and 3 they are called rift and swtor", I guess some people can't take a joke, I personally don't see that as trolling.

It was quite a good joke too - made me laugh.

I think the Mod is overreacting - it's not trolling. Your comment was certainly more insightful than inciting.

 

 

I'd be surprised if you DIDN'T get a 24hr ban from MMORPG.com for a comment like that as I've had 24hr, and even 3day bans, for MUCH more vanilla comments that I couldn't have imagined being a "troll" post in my grandest of dreams. I've even had arguements with Mike B. over the concept of what a "troll post" is. Needless to say, it didn't go very well :(.

I don't believe this site's moderators know what a "troll" post is whatsoever. I think they only take the # of "reports" for a specific comment, and then flush it down the drain without considering its viewpoints. I say this with confidence considering I've seen posts like "This game is the worst game I've EVER seen, and anyone who plays it is braindead!" on a daily basis go unchecked.

Sometimes I can only throw a dart & the wall to guess what is REALLY going on behind the scenes sometimes.

Originally posted by Robsolf

Originally posted by RefMinor
From the Rules of Conduct:

 

"Trolling

Posting excessive negative comments or baiting others to respond in a negative manner is considered trolling on the MMORPG.com forums. For example: If there is one game that you did not enjoy, voicing your opinion is encouraged. Posting this opinion in every thread concerning that game to the point that it disrupts all other conversation is not tolerated."

 

Although I am not sure if an exemption may have been negotiated for the Mortal Online forum. Also ending every post with "Flame On! " might also be on the exemption list (you know who you are Mr)

That sounds about right, to me.  It's one thing to express dissatisfaction in a game, particularly if you're talking about specific things you don't like about a game.  But permeating every thread topic for a game with, "This suxxorz, and anybody that likes it is an idiot!  UMADBRO?" is something different entirely.

The king of eeyore trolling seems to have left altogether or was banned, or maybe found something better to do with his Precious time.  Since I can't think of anything LESS productive than bitching about games you don't like all day, it shouldn't be surprising.

The problem is that it is VERY subjective & broadly written. I've had posts of my own that were NO WHERE NEAR that definition earn me a temp ban, or at least a warning. So I have a generally good "feeling" that some mods are more overzealous than others in regards to the rules. Afterall, whos going to reign them in on their own site?

At the end of the day the only power members of this forum has is with their post-count & activity. Not a very well enforced power considering if they don't want you to say anything to anyone about an issue they've created its easy for them to silence you :(.

Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Originally posted by Miner-2049er

Originally posted by ShakyMo

I got a warning for posting on the would you play wow 2 thread, for saying something like "ive played wow 2 and 3 they are called rift and swtor", I guess some people can't take a joke, I personally don't see that as trolling.

It was quite a good joke too - made me laugh.

I think the Mod is overreacting - it's not trolling. Your comment was certainly more insightful than inciting.

 

 

I'd be surprised if you DIDN'T get a 24hr ban from MMORPG.com for a comment like that as I've had 24hr, and even 3day bans, for MUCH more vanilla comments that I couldn't have imagined being a "troll" post in my grandest of dreams. I've even had arguements with Mike B. over the concept of what a "troll post" is. Needless to say, it didn't go very well :(.

 

I don't believe this site's moderators know what a "troll" post is whatsoever. I think they only take the # of "reports" for a specific comment, and then flush it down the drain without considering its viewpoints. I say this with confidence considering I've seen posts like "This game is the worst game I've EVER seen, and anyone who plays it is braindead!" on a daily basis go unchecked.

 

Sometimes I can only throw a dart & the wall to guess what is REALLY going on behind the scenes sometimes.

Well if you genuinely feel that way, perhaps you should not draw attention to it. LOL Oh, the irony of it all :)

ShakyMo told a good joke - which I'm guessing was misunderstood. Our humour in the UK is overtly satirical, and thank god for that.

Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Originally posted by Robsolf

Originally posted by RefMinor
From the Rules of Conduct:

 

"Trolling

Posting excessive negative comments or baiting others to respond in a negative manner is considered trolling on the MMORPG.com forums. For example: If there is one game that you did not enjoy, voicing your opinion is encouraged. Posting this opinion in every thread concerning that game to the point that it disrupts all other conversation is not tolerated."

 

Although I am not sure if an exemption may have been negotiated for the Mortal Online forum. Also ending every post with "Flame On! " might also be on the exemption list (you know who you are Mr)

That sounds about right, to me.  It's one thing to express dissatisfaction in a game, particularly if you're talking about specific things you don't like about a game.  But permeating every thread topic for a game with, "This suxxorz, and anybody that likes it is an idiot!  UMADBRO?" is something different entirely.

The king of eeyore trolling seems to have left altogether or was banned, or maybe found something better to do with his Precious time.  Since I can't think of anything LESS productive than bitching about games you don't like all day, it shouldn't be surprising.

The problem is that it is VERY subjective & broadly written. I've had posts of my own that were NO WHERE NEAR that definition earn me a temp ban, or at least a warning. So I have a generally good "feeling" that some mods are more overzealous than others in regards to the rules. Afterall, whos going to reign them in on their own site?

 At the end of the day the only power members of this forum has is with their post-count & activity. Not a very well enforced power considering if they don't want you to say anything to anyone about an issue they've created its easy for them to silence you :(.

  I have seen the exact opposite problem and often.  One poster goes into 7+ threads, many times with 5 or more disgustingly negative posts in each thread, for a game and never seems to be reprimanded.

Originally posted by Miner-2049er

Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Originally posted by Miner-2049er

Originally posted by ShakyMo

I got a warning for posting on the would you play wow 2 thread, for saying something like "ive played wow 2 and 3 they are called rift and swtor", I guess some people can't take a joke, I personally don't see that as trolling.

It was quite a good joke too - made me laugh.

I think the Mod is overreacting - it's not trolling. Your comment was certainly more insightful than inciting.

 

 

I'd be surprised if you DIDN'T get a 24hr ban from MMORPG.com for a comment like that as I've had 24hr, and even 3day bans, for MUCH more vanilla comments that I couldn't have imagined being a "troll" post in my grandest of dreams. I've even had arguements with Mike B. over the concept of what a "troll post" is. Needless to say, it didn't go very well :(.

 

I don't believe this site's moderators know what a "troll" post is whatsoever. I think they only take the # of "reports" for a specific comment, and then flush it down the drain without considering its viewpoints. I say this with confidence considering I've seen posts like "This game is the worst game I've EVER seen, and anyone who plays it is braindead!" on a daily basis go unchecked.

 

Sometimes I can only throw a dart & the wall to guess what is REALLY going on behind the scenes sometimes.

Well if you genuinely feel that way, perhaps you should not draw attention to it. LOL Oh, the irony of it all :)

ShakyMo told a good joke - which I'm guessing was misunderstood. Our humour in the UK is overtly satirical, and thank god for that.