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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » Sigh. So, GW2 is shaping up to be WoW 2 in many ways.

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220 posts found
  someforumguy

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/25/07
Posts: 3517

2/23/12 2:25:40 PM#81

I dont think that the OP is a troll, but more like a disappointed GW2 fan atm.  Ive seen him post a lot about GW2. Anyway..

1. Death penalty. I think the current mechanics are ok. You dont pay for repairs if you dont die (downed state is not dieing). So skilled players are rewarded for being skilled.

2. Ive noticed it too in gameplay videos that sometimes mobs dont die fast. But most of the times that was when one of those beta player was trying a new weapon and was only spamming the first skill of that new weapon all the time to train for the next skill. From the press beta event I mainly saw starting areas. Im not sure if you can compare starting area mobs to higher lvl area mobs. Maybe the mob diversity is a little like in GW1 in higher lvl areas. If its not, Im not sure if I like it either. I agree with the OP that GW1 combat looks more tactical.

The OP raises two interesting points. And then goes way hyperbole about how GW2 is now a lot like WoW because of these 2 things.

 

  DJJazzy

Novice Member

Joined: 5/18/11
Posts: 2074

2/23/12 2:26:19 PM#82
Originally posted by Meowhead
Originally posted by Distopia

It's only  that way because people feel the need to redefine something that shouldn't be redefined. Sandbox, what is an actual sandbox? It's a box of sand made to build things in, that's the purpose of it. In gaming terms freeform non-linear game-play should not be confused with being a sandbox IMO, as it again implies you can manipulate the world when you can't. Taking off the training wheels and letting go doesn't make your kids bike a sandbox.

You know what's a sandbox game?

 

Having a big bunch of legos on a table. :x

I think almost all these MMORPGs calling themselves sandbox games are significantly overselling themselves.

QFT

games that have player made content and the tools to provide that player made content is what I consider a sandbox

hence, minecraft and neverwinter nights are in that category

there is no mmo in that category (unless you consider minecraft and NWN as mmos)

  thexrated

Novice Member

Joined: 11/26/04
Posts: 1379

2/23/12 2:26:38 PM#83

Games in the same genre imitate each other to certain extent. Innovation is slow process. It is true for all genres. You see small iterations over time, not massive overhaul.

 

"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15960

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

2/23/12 2:26:47 PM#84
Originally posted by DJJazzy

Perhaps we need some sub-definitions. 

Directive gameplay themeparks 

and 

non directive gameplay themeparks

Rails and no-rails? I think we already have those terms :P

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  Shroom_Mage

Novice Member

Joined: 9/21/05
Posts: 871

It's all or nothin'!

2/23/12 2:27:04 PM#85

ITT: Angry EVE fans think being a themepark is inherently bad.

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." -Dr. Seuss

  Somsbal

Novice Member

Joined: 1/30/12
Posts: 234

TIËSTO RULES

2/23/12 2:27:15 PM#86
Originally posted by itgrowls

that's not entirely true, there is openworld roaming, you can actually walk to the end of a zone and walk into another zone without loading screens

There ARE loading screens between zones, i don't know why lately people keep claiming there aren't.

Now i don't know if each zone border has a loading screen, and i don't know how many loading screens there are in the world, but stop telling people there aren't any.

  Volkon

Novice Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 3813

Facts do not require fiction for balance.

2/23/12 2:27:24 PM#87
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by itgrowls

Sandboxes contrary to popular belief does not refer only to building in a world....it's so much more. It's interacting with the world in a by choice by chance only system instead of a directed path through the world.

It's only  that way because people feel the need to redefine something that shouldn't be redefined. Sandbox, what is an actual sandbox? It's a box of sand made to build things in, that's the purpose of it. In gaming terms freeform non-linear game-play should not be confused with being a sandbox IMO, as it again implies you can manipulate the world when you can't. Taking off the training wheels and letting go doesn't make your kids bike a sandbox.

By your rigid definition Eve Online doesn't sound like a sandbox. Sheesh. Want to buld a tengu? You have to spend at least this much time training the skills to build it, use exactly these materials, not what you want, etc. Even so called sandboxes have walls you're confined within.

Oderint, dum metuant.

  DJJazzy

Novice Member

Joined: 5/18/11
Posts: 2074

2/23/12 2:27:40 PM#88
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by DJJazzy

Perhaps we need some sub-definitions. 

Directive gameplay themeparks 

and 

non directive gameplay themeparks

Rails and no-rails? I think we already have those terms :P

ah good point

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15960

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

2/23/12 2:27:50 PM#89
Originally posted by Meowhead
Originally posted by Distopia

It's only  that way because people feel the need to redefine something that shouldn't be redefined. Sandbox, what is an actual sandbox? It's a box of sand made to build things in, that's the purpose of it. In gaming terms freeform non-linear game-play should not be confused with being a sandbox IMO, as it again implies you can manipulate the world when you can't. Taking off the training wheels and letting go doesn't make your kids bike a sandbox.

You know what's a sandbox game?

 

Having a big bunch of legos on a table. :x

I think almost all these MMORPGs calling themselves sandbox games are significantly overselling themselves.

Well maybe, I'm just sick of the word being thrown around for anything and everything today.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  maxiime223

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/08
Posts: 96

2/23/12 2:28:07 PM#90

I have to disagree with you.

You actually understood the death penalty wrong, I thought the same as you in the beggining. The Downed Bar goes down by 25% when you get downed, yes, BUT it goes back up every minute. The only way you can die automatically is if you get downed 4 times in ONE minute.  they weren't very clear about that, I agree. I hope that gives you a little faith back into the game!

As for the combat, I think it's miles away from WoW.  It's just that GW2's combat seems to be designed for solo players a lot. However, they could change that with the combo system; your skills can interact with other classes' skills, which is a great thing. I think that the combat will require a lot of thinking and strategy.

don't forget that the death penalty isn't that much of an important feature. Try to think about all else that is great about the game.

And gw2 will never end up failing like warhammer or decieving like TOR.  So far the press is loving it, and it's coming to us soon!

I guess we'll have to wait until we play before placing a final judgement!

 

 

  Vhaln

Novice Member

Joined: 7/07/05
Posts: 3167

2/23/12 2:28:38 PM#91

Some people even call EQ a sandbox, and by the new standards TOR's set, some could even call WoW a sandbox.  People have become totally confused as to what the word even means, probably because it's been so long since we've seen one (that wasn't a broken amateurish indie game)

 

Also, the word has such a stigma associated with it.  Like linear.  Some linear games are great, some themeparks are great. There's nothing wrong with GW2 being a themepark, just with the genre for offering so little variation.

When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.

  Fion

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 2356

forums.3305local.com

We are recruiting.

2/23/12 2:28:49 PM#92
Originally posted by Dream_Chaser

I never thought I'd actually say something like that, but I feel betrayed, and people need to understand fully what's going on as we approach release. ArenaNet are slipping things in which is making the game more and more like WoW.

I don't know why they're doing that.

I mean, that's appealing to the WoW crowd, and down that road lays madness and bankruptcy. And if they continue this way then they're going to end up with a flop on their hands, likely to the magnitude of Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning, or even worse.

So, two things have come up, that people need to know about.

1. The death penalty has become ridiculous.

Okay, so if you die, this happens...

1. You're downed, but every time you're downed after you lose 25% of your downed bar permanently until you're forced to 'die.' So, once you're downed you only get 75% of it next time, then 50%, then 25%, and after that you're forced to 'die.'

2. When you're forced to die, you have to pay a sum of gold to teleport to the nearest waypoint.

3. When you're forced to die, a piece of armour breaks.

4. When all your armour breaks, you have to pay again to repair all of your armour.

5. When the above death occurs, you have to pay for the teleport and for the armour repair.

If that's not WoW-like then what is?

2. The battles are looking more and more like WoW.

One thing the press has been noticing in recent builds is that not only is the AI pretty dumb, but it takes forever to kill a single mob. This means that you can have five guys beating on one mob and it can take over two minutes to kill. Does this sound familiar? Yeah, WoW.

Now, the approach I hoped they'd take would be more like CO or Guild Wars 1. Where you have a large group of foes, and some are responsible for healing, some are responsible for debuffing, and when you kill most of the group, the rest will run off to get help. This makes fights dynamic and interesting, because if you don't kill the right guys first, and if you don't kill the guys who run off for reinforcements, things can turn bad.

But if your situational awareness is good, and you know what you're doing, and you're skilled at the game, then the fights can go pretty quick until a new mob appears that tosses a new style of AI into the mix. That's the kind of play I was hoping for. But that's not what the journalists are seeing in Guild Wars 2.

So, instead of the CO or GW1 approach, it feels a lot like WoW. Many journalists have said this.

My conclusion.

ArenaNet needs to take a step back from this more WoW-like path they've taken and delay the game just a bit longer. If they release it in its current state, which is very WoW-like, then it's going to be a massive flop. WoW players will only leave WoW for about a month before they either go back to WoW or TOR (and I've heard of many TOR players getting fed up with that and going back to WoW already). It's going to go the same way as Warhammer Online. It doesn't even have a big Intellectual Property hook like TOR does.

So, who am I? Am I just some troll? Ha. I'm sure some will think so. I'm a very passionate person who cares about the state of gaming. I'm one of those "I actually give a shit." people. A rare breed. I've been around for a long time, I've been following Guild Wars 2 since it was announced in magazines back in '05. I've been here. I've been watching. And you've likely seen me praising GW2 in the past.

I like a lot of the promises that ArenaNet have made. I've praised them for those promises.

But I feel a little betrayed, because it seems more and more that ArenaNet are pulling a Blizzard and going back on all of their promises to make the game they think will sell. They've turned to greed, but if they're not careful then that greed will in turn turn to bankruptcy. I'm hoping that they'll realise this and step back. I just think they need to take a look at what they're doing and go back to the drawing board, to make fights more interesting without simply being timesinks, and to make death penalties interesting without making them grindy time/gold sinks.

 

You get so much wrong here I felt the need to reply on a point to point basis.

1: The death penalty, you got it wrong. Yes, your 'health' in a downed state is reduced by 25% each time you are downed, but what you miss is that it resets about once a minute. So really it's only a penalty if you go into a downed state more than once a minute. If that is happening you either need to rethink your build or strategy or tell your dungeon group to stop sucking :p

2: This is correct, mostly. You aren't 'forced to die' because of what I said above. Unless you go down four times in a minute, you won't ever be 'forced' to die. This fee is tiny. If you watch videos, the normal fee is a few copper pieces. When you dye you pay ‘double’. So if a point costs 4 copper to get there, you pay 8. I would expect that only the very high level areas cost more than a few silver. Also, how exactly is paying a fee to teleport to the nearest waypoint 'like wow'? That is the premise of your post so.. I don't understand where are you coming from with this one.

3/4: You get this wrong as well. When you die one piece of you armor is damaged. Once all your armor is damaged it breaks. This is different form a typical ‘durability’ system where when you die or even when you are just in combat, your gear slowly degrades until it breaks. If you repair your armor as pieces are damaged, you won’t have to pay ‘again’ once it breaks because... it won’t break.

5: How exactly is repairing damaged (or broken armor) and paying a few copper to teleport like WoW? This makes me think you’ve never played WoW. When you die in wow, your armor degrades in a traditional sense (and potentially breaks) but you also spawn as a ghost in a nearby graveyard and have to go back to your body and recover your gear.

Part 2

I’ve seen this nonsense in the guru forums as well and not only have I rebutted it there, I will here as well. Video’s showing long fights with a single mob in every case I’ve seen, that mob is a boss and it almost every time is above the players own level. Such as the Yogscast norn videos where the two guys spend about 2 minutes fighting a drake boss. The mob is a boss for one, but it is also four levels higher than they are. They pretty much get their ass handed to them, and for good reason.

Second, this reasoning seems to ignore the tons of other mobs they fight where they kill them in 3-5 hits. As to the AI, do note everything we’ve seen has been very low level from the press beta. I wouldn’t expect great AI from the essentially ‘tutorial’ mobs. This doesn’t mean the fights are easy by any means. There are a number of times where they get in over their heads, using the Yogscast videos as examples, often getting into fights with half a dozen mobs or more. On the AI more specifically, this is the same company that did the brilliant AI in Guild Wars. To think they didn’t carry that over to GW2 is not only an assumption, but a bad one.

Conclusion

I disagree completely that the game resembles WoW in nearly any way. Things like an attrition mechanic and costs to use the waypoint system are just how they do their money sinks, and every MMOG needs money sinks because without them the economy inflates to extremes. These two things do not make the game ‘a WoW clone’ by any stretch of the imagination. They make it an MMOG that uses a few common (but still heavily altered) systems because they are necessary.

 Frankly if you feel that the above two mechanics make the game a WoW clone, then I feel bad for you because you are obviously ignoring every other aspect of the game that set it apart from other, previous titles like WoW

  sonoggi

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/22/09
Posts: 1151

2/23/12 2:29:19 PM#93

i lol'd at this OP. are you seriously gonna write half a page criticizing the death penalty system? the rest of your post is incomprehensible BS. you are either really hating the game and finding a way to reach, or youre just trolling.

  Teala

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/16/04
Posts: 7437

"Really officer, they're herbs."

2/23/12 2:29:33 PM#94
Originally posted by DJJazzy
Originally posted by Meowhead
Originally posted by Distopia

It's only  that way because people feel the need to redefine something that shouldn't be redefined. Sandbox, what is an actual sandbox? It's a box of sand made to build things in, that's the purpose of it. In gaming terms freeform non-linear game-play should not be confused with being a sandbox IMO, as it again implies you can manipulate the world when you can't. Taking off the training wheels and letting go doesn't make your kids bike a sandbox.

You know what's a sandbox game?

 

Having a big bunch of legos on a table. :x

I think almost all these MMORPGs calling themselves sandbox games are significantly overselling themselves.

QFT

games that have player made content and the tools to provide that player made content is what I consider a sandbox

hence, minecraft and neverwinter nights are in the category

there is no mmo in that category (unless you consider minecraft and NWN as mmos)


Actually, I can list a couple of MMO's that I would consider sandbox or sandbox'ish.   UO is a sandbox game.   EVE is sandbox'ish.   Vanguard is sandbox'ish.   If SWG pre-NGE were still around it would have been on the list of sandbox games.

  Maelkor

Novice Member

Joined: 8/20/05
Posts: 462

2/23/12 2:30:45 PM#95

You know not every game is designed to appeal to every individual. If you do not like the design decisions of GW2 dont buy it and dont play it. Its really that simple. No one really cares why you feel "betrayed" or anything else.

  Meowhead

Tipster

Joined: 1/31/09
Posts: 3732

2/23/12 2:31:01 PM#96
Originally posted by Distopia

Well maybe, I'm just sick of the word being thrown around for anything and everything today.

Well, you're not going to see me using it to describe GW2, but you won't see me using it to describe most games, for that matter. :)

I think one problem is that there isn't like a real, proper, official definition and some Great Gaming God of Definitions who just says 'BAM, everything that is a sandbox is this, and everything that is not a sandbox title does not have that'.

That would be really convenient, but mostly it's just people's feelings.

Feeeeeeeeeelings.

Such a shoddy way of defining things.

  AIMonster

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/31/08
Posts: 2025

2/23/12 2:31:11 PM#97

It looks like to me that the AI still behaves similarly to how it did in Guild Wars.  Enemies run away, kite if they are ranged, and some even tend to use abilities at the proper time.  Some enemies aim for weaker targets, while others focus on players in front of them.  You don't see a lot of that in the early areas, but if you watch a few videos that feature content beyond the verying beginning of the starter zone you'll start to see more AI types.  There seems to be a good variety.  Some are mindless and just charge and attack and do nothing else, but there are quite a few that seem to be doing a bit more than that.

Also the CO approach?  I remember the combat in CO being ridiculous easy and mindless.  Able to solo world bosses that were obviously meant for small raids and generally little chance of death throughout the entire the game.  I was able to solo the 5 man dungeons with ease in CO too, and I don't remember anything inside being responsible for a specific role (i'd imagine if there actually was healers in these dungeons it would have been impossible to solo).

Contrary to what you are saying, if you watch the Ascalon Dungeon video.you'll see there are packs of trash setup in these roles too.  Each set of MOBs each has their own mechanic (which is conveniently shown to the player if you target them) and some focus almost solely on healing.

Raptr link because it's the cool new trend:

  someforumguy

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/25/07
Posts: 3517

2/23/12 2:31:35 PM#98

All the sandbox vs themepark ppl gtfo, or get back on topic and address the OP's two raised points.

1. Current death penalty mechanics = skilled players dont (often) pay for repairs

2. Combat. Im not sure about this. Ive mainly seen low lvl areas and players have barely skills at that point, so I dont expect much from mobs either. But yeah, I agree that GW1 combat looks more tactical. But on the other hand GW2 is more twitchy with the dodging.

  spaceport

Novice Member

Joined: 11/24/11
Posts: 417

2/23/12 2:31:37 PM#99
To all the people who are saying that GW2 has sandbox elements:

 

Eh... im just noot seeing it.

 

Hell, even Tera looks to have more sandbox elements.

 

GW2 is an innovative themepark, but sandbox elements? where?

 

PVE & PVP are completely separated, you can't get more carebear than that.

 

Can you build anything? no...

 

Does it have politics? a sense of community? no...

 

I mean it's server vs server vs server, you will never have any kind of politics, rivalries and all that stuff when you fight against other servers, and let's not forget about the server rotation... if a LFG tool kills the sense of community, what GW2 is doing is even worse.

 

Oh and don't tell me how DEs are cooperative, we all know what is going to happen, exactly what RIFT had, solo players playing in a group, the DE ends, everyone leaves, 0 words, very very social amright!!!!!! All in all, im very hyped about GW2 because i can still enjoy themeparks, unless they are total wow clones.

 

However, this beta videos where a bit.... you know... dissapointing, im not seeing this "action combat" that Arenanet talked so much about, what Tera has is miled ahead in terms of combat mechanics.

 

Too bad it still has quest based leveling, but hey... no game is perfect.

 

Oh, and the graphics looked VERY cartonish and low rez, but it's beta and the guy in the video could have a low end pc.


"Esport with tournaments is for hardcore pvp'rs that want to be competitive. Openworld PVP with ganking and griefing is for casuals that just wants their pvp mixed with pve from time to time."
otacu

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15960

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

2/23/12 2:32:06 PM#100
Originally posted by Vhaln

Some people even call EQ a sandbox, and by the new standards TOR's set, some could even call WoW a sandbox.  People have become totally confused as to what the word even means, probably because it's been so long since we've seen one (that wasn't a broken amateurish indie game)

 

Also, the word has such a stigma associated with it.  Like linear.  Some linear games are great, some themeparks are great. There's nothing wrong with GW2 being a themepark, just with the genre for offering so little variation.

Agree 100% well said, +1 toward all of the above.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

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