I think the issue is that this game has unparalleled adulation on par with a religion, based on videos and dev interviews. As such, there is bound to be threads in response, when they see this spamming the front page of this website, with "WTF?!"

Personally that's whats going through my head, WoW didn't have anywhere near this euphoric toe-kissing, i remember it clearly, which kinda suggests the level of praise this game is getting in pre-release kinda needs to be...balanced out perhaps.

I could see how people could consider GW2 a hybrid if you compare it to strict Themepark games like WOW/SWTOR/etc.  The questing is much more open than quest hub and go follow instructions.  You wander around and find events and then participate in them.  WvV is much more dynamic than the PvP in any of the other Themepark games other than DAOC (if you strictly consider that a Themepark)

I like the idea of holding a keep for my guild, building siege engines, balistas, etc and having a 2 week competition of WvW open PvP that ranks the winners and matches you up with other servers.  I like upgrading my guild hall with various enhancments that take awhile to build and improve and having guild capes, etc.  Maybe it is a Themepark, but it's an open Themepark with lots more freedom than other Themepark games and I think people are calling it a hybrid since the freedom is similiar to Sandbox games. 

Call it what you will; I just hope the freedom is there, the gameplay is there and hopefully the PvP will be there.

Originally posted by Vegetto

I think the issue is that this game has unparalelled adoration on par with a religion, based on videos and dev interviews. As such, there is bound to be threads in response, when they see this spamming the front page of this website, with "WTF?!"

Personally that's whats going through my head, WoW didn't have anywhere near this euphoric toe-kissing, i remember it clearly, which kinda suggests the level of praise this game is getting in pre-release kinda needs to be...balanced out perhaps.

Keep in mind, unlike certain other new releases...GW2 has allowed many FANS play the game, and let them freely play. ArcheAge is doing the same thing.

Most MMOs show very limited amount of their game, even in beta...GW2 has shown tons even in alpha. And ArcheAge is doing the same I believe.

Originally posted by Unlight

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by Isasis

Why does it even matter if GW2 is a sandbox or themepark? It will still be fun and entertaining.

Beause someone had to state that GW2 had sandbox game play in it, when it doesn't, and then they went on to try to argue the point and still cannot list anything that suggest that GW2 has sandbox elements in it.

As for me, I think the game is nothing more than another themepark game.  Just a different take on it.  And as I said earlier, as long as the game doesn't bore me to tears within the first few hours of game play - it might be a decent game for what it is.

Theme parks lead you through the game, sandboxes don't.  GW2 doesn't lead you through the game.  The world happens with or without your input.  Voila, a shared trait.  Can we go now?

Umm...no.

Originally posted by Isasis

Originally posted by tank017

Originally posted by Teala

I think people need to realize that this game is a themepark game with a twist.    It is not the next coming of gaming Jesus...it is just another themepark.

If any game will shake up the genre it will be ArcheAge.   It is the only game in the future that will put this genre back on the path it should have been going since the time of UO.  

 

Exactly, GW2 is a themepark game,thus there will be theme park elements.It may be a shocker,but there will be things in GW2 that we have indeed seen before .

Just because it isn't a sandbox, doesn't mean it won't change the genre...just look at WoW, EQ and DAOC. More themepark games have changed the genre than sandbox. I think the only successful sandbox (MMO) is EVE. Which is kind of a drag for sandbox people, since they are limited in their genre.

 

In any case, ArcheAge looks like it will be great for sandbox fans...if only to be a pirate and sail ships :D that sounds awesome. But that is another topic, really.

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by Unlight

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by Isasis

Why does it even matter if GW2 is a sandbox or themepark? It will still be fun and entertaining.

Beause someone had to state that GW2 had sandbox game play in it, when it doesn't, and then they went on to try to argue the point and still cannot list anything that suggest that GW2 has sandbox elements in it.

As for me, I think the game is nothing more than another themepark game.  Just a different take on it.  And as I said earlier, as long as the game doesn't bore me to tears within the first few hours of game play - it might be a decent game for what it is.

Theme parks lead you through the game, sandboxes don't.  GW2 doesn't lead you through the game.  The world happens with or without your input.  Voila, a shared trait.  Can we go now?

Umm...no.

You can build siege weapons. Can we go now?

Originally posted by Isasis

 

 but I do often see the same person ranting and complaining in every post about GW2.

Oh, those ones. Yeah, you'll have those everywhere. Closer the game gets to launch the more they'll be popping up. Meh, aren't you used to them by now? Most times they don't even phase me anymore unless I feel like messing with them.

So it isn't so much the discussion that bothers you as it is the zealots and haters that aren't actually looking for debates. The ones simply trying to infuriate people or "enlighten the masses" with their "superior knowledge".

That I can agree with.

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by Unlight

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by Isasis

Why does it even matter if GW2 is a sandbox or themepark? It will still be fun and entertaining.

Beause someone had to state that GW2 had sandbox game play in it, when it doesn't, and then they went on to try to argue the point and still cannot list anything that suggest that GW2 has sandbox elements in it.

As for me, I think the game is nothing more than another themepark game.  Just a different take on it.  And as I said earlier, as long as the game doesn't bore me to tears within the first few hours of game play - it might be a decent game for what it is.

Theme parks lead you through the game, sandboxes don't.  GW2 doesn't lead you through the game.  The world happens with or without your input.  Voila, a shared trait.  Can we go now?

Umm...no.

Kind of true.

To point out... I don't think GW2 can be considered themepark, but only if Skyrim is considered a themepark as well. GW2 appears to actually be an open world game like Skyrim is. No set paths, but a mostly open world and doing quests however you please. It isn't a themepark like other MMOs have been, but it isn't a sandbox either.

Most themeparks are on a set path and you go from A to B to C, then choose from D or E. However judging by GW2 beta videos...you can do any quest as you wish, and they open up if you are close by. It is quite a bit more open.

GW2 is not a sandbox, just leave it there.

Someone said GW2 was a Themepark without the rails - a free roam Themepark... I may have even coined the term Themebox.

To me, themepark as it applies to MMOs, to use the analogy, is that you walk in the gates to the amusement park, and say

"Hey, I want to go on the Ferris Wheel"

Now, your typical WoW-like themepark would tell you "Nope, you have to first ride on the Merry Go Round for an hour before you can go on the Ferris Wheel."

Then you'd reply, "Well I don't LIKE Merry Go Rounds, I want to go on the Ferris Wheel."

Then the themepark would reply, "Ferris Wheel is for End Game."

GW2 is more like a Themepark where once you get in the gates (buy the game) you can go just about anywhere in the park whenever you would like, whenever you want to.

There really isn't an "end-game" per say. You just pay your fee, show up, and have fun doing what you want to do.

That is the big difference, and the free roam and more open nature of it is why people (myself included) have said that GW2 contains some "sandboxy" elements - the freedom to play your way is usually only seen in straight up sandbox titles.

The best part is - once you pay the fee to enter the park, you can come back whenever you want to without having to pay again and again for it.

You may just have to pay extra for some cotton candy or a game to win a big stuffed animal.

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by Isasis

 

 but I do often see the same person ranting and complaining in every post about GW2.

Oh, those ones. Yeah, you'll have those everywhere. Closer the game gets to launch the more they'll be popping up. Meh, aren't you used to them by now? Most times they don't even phase me anymore unless I feel like messing with them.

So it isn't so much the discussion that bothers you as it is the zealots and haters that aren't actually looking for debates. The ones simply trying to infuriate people or "enlighten the masses" with their "superior knowledge".

That I can agree with.

yeah, it isn't the people just discussing the game. That is what forums are after all...no point in a forum if no discussion. Sorry if the previous post(s) I made came out the wrong way.

Originally posted by Somsbal

GW2 is not a sandbox, just leave it there.

I'm not sure anyone was saying that.

Rather it just has some sandbox elements.

Every time I read the MMORPG forums i realize the same thing; There are a lot of MMORPG members that are tired of MMOs.

Originally posted by Dream_Chaser

I never thought I'd actually say something like that, but I feel betrayed, and people need to understand fully what's going on as we approach release. ArenaNet are slipping things in which is making the game more and more like WoW.

I don't know why they're doing that.

I mean, that's appealing to the WoW crowd, and down that road lays madness and bankruptcy. And if they continue this way then they're going to end up with a flop on their hands, likely to the magnitude of Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning, or even worse.

So, two things have come up, that people need to know about.

1. The death penalty has become ridiculous.

Okay, so if you die, this happens...

1. You're downed, but every time you're downed after you lose 25% of your downed bar permanently until you're forced to 'die.' So, once you're downed you only get 75% of it next time, then 50%, then 25%, and after that you're forced to 'die.'

This "downed state fatigue" is not as absolute as you make out. You build up the fatigue when you enter the downed state, but the fatigue bleeds away over time. Unless you are going down continually in a short time span, this is not an issue. If you are dying over and over in quick order, then you are probably tackling content beyond you, which is one reason for the mechanism in the first place, to let the more thick headed realize that they are attempting something that they probably aren't going to be able to succeed at.

2. When you're forced to die, you have to pay a sum of gold to teleport to the nearest waypoint.

When you enter the defeated state, from the downed state, (you aren't dying), anyone can come along and revive you. The more people reviving you, the quicker you revive. No one forces you into defeat. You chose how to play and if you tackle content that is difficult or are just not a very skilled player, you will face defeat. Sometimes you do everything right and still end up defeated. That's the risk that goes along with the reward. If there was no risk, you might as well just be playing a choose your own adventure type of game.

Remember that when in the downed state, you have an opportunity to revive yourself. You can do so by finishing off a foe with the offensive skills the Downed State grants you. Also, as of the press beta and moving forward, the 4th skill for every profession in the Downed State is a channeled self heal. Great for those times when some lingering condition sends you into the downed state. Instead of just slowly slipping into Defeat with no way of saving yourself, you can heal yourself out of the Downed State, assuming nothing else is inturrupting your self healing.

If you are defeated, with no one to revive you, you can teleport, for a very small fee, to the nearest way point, of which there are many.

3. When you're forced to die, a piece of armour breaks.

When you are defeated, a piece of armor is damaged, not broken. Damaged armor still provides full benefits. When all your armor is damaged, subsequent defeats will then start breaking armor, a piece at a time. Once again, no one is forcing you into Defeat, your game play is resulting in defeat.

4. When all your armour breaks, you have to pay again to repair all of your armour.

Yes. Damaged or broken armor needs to be repaired, for a very modest fee. Unlike most games with gear degradation, damage to armor in GW2 only occurs on defeat. Play smart, minimize your defeats and you won't have much to worry about. We aren't talking about a bank breaking cash sink and in a game with very few mandatory cash sinks, it seems a little odd to be complaining about this.

5. When the above death occurs, you have to pay for the teleport and for the armour repair.

If that's not WoW-like then what is?

Does WoW have a Downed State, that allows you to rally and avoid defeat? Does WoW allow any player in the game to revive you if you are "killed" (defeated)? Does WoW reserve gear damage only to Defeats? Does WoW offer you an expansive way point system to easily move around the game world? What about the system is like WoW? That if you fail you can be defeated? That if you are defeated there can be a (very) minor consequence?

2. The battles are looking more and more like WoW.

One thing the press has been noticing in recent builds is that not only is the AI pretty dumb, but it takes forever to kill a single mob. This means that you can have five guys beating on one mob and it can take over two minutes to kill. Does this sound familiar? Yeah, WoW.

Most on level, ordinary mobs go down pretty quickly in this game. You also have no mana/energy mechanic and health restores rapidly when out of combat. Yes, there are more challenging mobs that take longer to kill. These mobs also have special attacks and defenses you will want to consider when determining the best approach to defeating them. Are you really advocating that every mob in the game be completely trivial? That you should just run around one shotting every mob you encounter? The AI varies from opponent to opponent. Most games have AI that sits in one place dealing attacks on you, while you sit in one place, dealing attacks on them, until someone dies. The AI here is a bit kore evolved than that and is not entirely predictable either.

So, any game that requires effort to kill a mob is a WoW clone? You have to understand how absurd that sounds, so I'm guessing this is some sort of rant that is venting frustrations beyond game design?

Now, the approach I hoped they'd take would be more like CO or Guild Wars 1. Where you have a large group of foes, and some are responsible for healing, some are responsible for debuffing, and when you kill most of the group, the rest will run off to get help. This makes fights dynamic and interesting, because if you don't kill the right guys first, and if you don't kill the guys who run off for reinforcements, things can turn bad.

This isn't GW1, where you play the game with an army of followers when ever you aren't playing with a group of real players. There are battles in GW2 were multiple mobs of various skill sets work together and stategy for defeating them becomes key, but not every encounter is going to be against a group of opponents, because you aren't assumed to be entering the fray with a group of companions. Content that scales up for groups of players introduces more strategic elements, as the number of foes can increase, along with the skills they have access to and the dynamics of their interactions.

But if your situational awareness is good, and you know what you're doing, and you're skilled at the game, then the fights can go pretty quick until a new mob appears that tosses a new style of AI into the mix. That's the kind of play I was hoping for. But that's not what the journalists are seeing in Guild Wars 2.

Really? Because I saw a fair amount of it watching the various videos of the game.

So, instead of the CO or GW1 approach, it feels a lot like WoW. Many journalists have said this.

There are NPC creatures and opponents that you have to fight to defeat. It's a simple element of RPG design. There is nothing uniquely WoW-like about it. The combat that is offered is a lot more dynamic than anything WoW dreams of offering. Also, please show me the "many journalists" saying this.

My conclusion.

ArenaNet needs to take a step back from this more WoW-like path they've taken and delay the game just a bit longer. If they release it in its current state, which is very WoW-like, then it's going to be a massive flop. WoW players will only leave WoW for about a month before they either go back to WoW or TOR (and I've heard of many TOR players getting fed up with that and going back to WoW already). It's going to go the same way as Warhammer Online. It doesn't even have a big Intellectual Property hook like TOR does.

So, who am I? Am I just some troll? Ha. I'm sure some will think so. I'm a very passionate person who cares about the state of gaming. I'm one of those "I actually give a shit." people. A rare breed. I've been around for a long time, I've been following Guild Wars 2 since it was announced in magazines back in '05. I've been here. I've been watching. And you've likely seen me praising GW2 in the past.

I like a lot of the promises that ArenaNet have made. I've praised them for those promises.

But I feel a little betrayed, because it seems more and more that ArenaNet are pulling a Blizzard and going back on all of their promises to make the game they think will sell. They've turned to greed, but if they're not careful then that greed will in turn turn to bankruptcy. I'm hoping that they'll realise this and step back. I just think they need to take a look at what they're doing and go back to the drawing board, to make fights more interesting without simply being timesinks, and to make death penalties interesting without making them grindy time/gold sinks.

Conclusion is a baseless rant fueled by baseless or exaggerated complaints and weak comparisons. It seems the game doesn't match the fantasy in your head? Fine, but that has nothing to do with the merits of this game's design. On paper, you couldn't ask for a more elagant design for an MMO. It's isn't the insurmountable pinacle of MMO design that will never be topped, but it's the breath of fresh air and act of innovation and evolution the stagnant genre has been dying for.

Originally posted by Dream_Chaser

 

1. The death penalty has become ridiculous.

Okay, so if you die, this happens...

1. You're downed, but every time you're downed after you lose 25% of your downed bar permanently until you're forced to 'die.' So, once you're downed you only get 75% of it next time, then 50%, then 25%, and after that you're forced to 'die.'

2. When you're forced to die, you have to pay a sum of gold to teleport to the nearest waypoint.

Really? I have to pay a sum of 15 gold to rez? You realize that gold = silvers in WoW since thats what your trying to compare to. Since when does any WoW player give a shit about 15 silvers?

Secondly, you dont HAVE to ressurect at a waypoint! Buh-WHAT! EXACTLY! People have UP TO 30 minutes to ressurect you, just by right-clicking your dead body. And you can spam Zone chat saying "Hey I'm at --- can anyone come rez me?"!

3. When you're forced to die, a piece of armour breaks.

You might want to get your facts straight. A-hem (straight from the blog post) "Every time you die, a piece of your gear gets DAMAGED, once all of your gear is DAMAGED the next time you die a piece breaks. 

Keeping this in mind, remember from the videos we've seen that all characters have 5 pieces of armor.  This means that you would have to die 6 times for your first piece of gear to break. 

4. When all your armour breaks, you have to pay again to repair all of your armour!

Of course you do! You want to know why this mechanic is necessary?

Let's say I'm in the middle of Ascalonian Catacombs (the dungeon) and I say, being the party leader, "Hey guys, let's just zerg this one, with no death penalty, other than paying for the waypoint, we don't really have to worry."

So we zerg, and we die, and we zerg and we die, and we zerg until we down it. Now, this is a way easier tactic than having to actually use strategy, and since the sum i have to pay to be teleported is minimal, I don't really care.

It also helps combat botting. Why? Because with this system a computer program can't zerg 5 bots through a dungeon to farm for rare items without actual player imput.

5. When the above death occurs, you have to pay for the teleport and for the armour repair!

Honestly, if you die enough that all of your gear breaks, (aka 10 times) then you deserve paying for armour repairs. This game rewards skill, if you're going to die this much in a short enough amount of time that ALL of your gear breaks, you're doing something wrong.

If that's not WoW-like then what is?

You want to know what's WoW-like? SW:TOR. Nothing about this system is even close to WoW's so seriously, QQ about something else in this game that you actually can complain and know the facts about. 

 

Seriously, it's posts like this that give GW2, and GW2 Fans a bad reputation. I like this game, I've been waiting since it was first announced to play it, and i played GW1 way back when (speaking of which i need to log in for my 6th B-Day present). If someone fields a complaint about the game that is serious, and uses the correct information, I'm perfectly fine with it, and will probably support their claim because the developers need to know we're unhappy about something. However, when i see a post that uses the wrong information, and then has the GALL to take personal offense ( " I feel betrayed! " ), it makes me want to punch a kitten.

 

Fion ninja'ed me! dangit! xD

Only did beta, never subbed, so no clue if they have a 'downed state', and repairing armor and paying for teleports in some manner are about as WoW as it is to Ultima Online.

Save yourself, don't buy it!

Originally posted by Maelkor

You know not every game is designed to appeal to every individual. If you do not like the design decisions of GW2 dont buy it and dont play it. Its really that simple. No one really cares why you feel "betrayed" or anything else.

+1

Well said.

Themepark or not. You know exactly what type of game its going to be. Not like they are hiding anything.

Originally posted by Teala

Want to know what games can be looked at as sandbox or sandboxish games?

UO

Xsyon

Vanguard

EVE

Darkfall

MO

Dark Age of Camelot

WURM Online

I loved DAOC as much as anyone, but.. sandbox?  Or Vanguard?  Really?  They seem about as linear as any other themepark to me.  You couldn't just be a blacksmith, trader, or miner (without ignoring 99% of the game) or anything like that.

Originally posted by wrathzilla

Fion ninja'ed me! dangit! xD

Well, we showed that two independant people both had the same consistant response to the same unsupported criticisms. Always comforting to know that these things are as obvious to others as they appear in one's own mind. :)