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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » No raiding?

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185 posts found
  arieste

Novice Member

Joined: 10/11/04
Posts: 3301

2/21/12 7:19:15 AM#101
Originally posted by Zippy
Originally posted by arieste
Originally posted by Diovidius

Difficult PvE content will consist of 5-man dungeons and elite events. The later can lead to large open world bosses such as the Shatterer and Tequatl the Sunless which you can fight with up to a hundred players. Look them up on youtube.

There is your answer, so YES, there are raids.

There is a differencre bwtween a mob that can be raidied and actual progresion raid system.  When people speak of raids they mean progression raiding not  a few zerg mobs that require no thought just a computer to suffer through the lag.  Because a game has a few zerg mobs that are raidable does not mean it has progression raiding.

When people (like the OP) say "Raids" i assume they mean "Raids", you assume they mean "progression raiding".  

 

A raid is a PvE encounter designed to be killed by more than one group.  

 

Whether raiding becomes "progression" is largely defined by the difficulty, the rewards and the population.   If there are - let's say 10 - of these world mobs and they vary in difficulty, you can bet your ass that guilds will start tracking their progression on them, it's just human nature.    

 

Before the age of instanced raid zones popularized by EQ2 and WoW, plenty of raid encounters were just massive HP (and special script) mobs that sat out in the open world and could be challenged by hordes of hundreds of players.  It was still raiding.

"I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

- Raph Koster

Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2
Currently Playing: EQ2, NW, Firefall
Do you miss SWG crafting? Check out Firefall's system!

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16412

2/21/12 7:20:31 AM#102
Originally posted by arieste
Originally posted by Diovidius

Difficult PvE content will consist of 5-man dungeons and elite events. The later can lead to large open world bosses such as the Shatterer and Tequatl the Sunless which you can fight with up to a hundred players. Look them up on youtube.

There is your answer, so YES, there are raids.

No, that is hard dungeons and huge scaling open world bosses, not raids.

A raid is a boss or dungeon, usually instanced, designed for a certain preset number of players (10, 20, 25 and 40 are common numbers). It also have drops that is far better than anything else in tha game and are famous for unbalancing it.

So no, there are not raids but there are plenty of PvE content for a massive numbers of players.

  arieste

Novice Member

Joined: 10/11/04
Posts: 3301

2/21/12 7:24:15 AM#103
Originally posted by Loke666

A raid is a boss or dungeon, usually instanced, designed for a certain preset number of players

Raids existed long before games made them instanced and limited the number of players that can participate.  I understand that many people haven't played anything but WoW, but believe it or not, WoW is not the beginning and end of every MMO concept.  Just because raiding is "not like WoW", doesn't mean it's not raiding.  If it's a PvE encounter that is designed for more than 1 group of players, it is, BY DEFINITION a raid encounter.  That's all it is. 

"I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

- Raph Koster

Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2
Currently Playing: EQ2, NW, Firefall
Do you miss SWG crafting? Check out Firefall's system!

  Naqaj

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/24/09
Posts: 1673

2/21/12 7:26:23 AM#104

arieste, I think we're just too old. These young whippersnappers just don't know what a real raid is ;)

  arieste

Novice Member

Joined: 10/11/04
Posts: 3301

2/21/12 7:32:36 AM#105

But here, honestly, if you don't believe me that raiding on open world mobs with unlimited players existed, i googled "Anarchy Online Raiding"...

 

AO is an 11-year-old MMO and the first i had raided in.  All the bosses referred to are uninstanced world bosses that can be attacked by any amount of players and usually were killed by 50-100 players.

 

Here, take a look at this "Guide" and see if the raiding sounds "real" to you:

http://aovault.ign.com/View.php?view=Guides.Detail&id=89

 

I'm not saying GW2 will be anything like it, but as long as there are difficult mobs that require a lot of players and (i assume) provide some reward, people will band together into raids to kill them.

"I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

- Raph Koster

Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2
Currently Playing: EQ2, NW, Firefall
Do you miss SWG crafting? Check out Firefall's system!

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16412

2/21/12 7:35:53 AM#106
Originally posted by arieste
Originally posted by Loke666

A raid is a boss or dungeon, usually instanced, designed for a certain preset number of players

Raids existed long before games made them instanced and limited the number of players that can participate.  I understand that many people haven't played anything but WoW, but believe it or not, WoW is not the beginning and end of every MMO concept.  Just because raiding is "not like WoW", doesn't mean it's not raiding.  If it's a PvE encounter that is designed for more than 1 group of players, it is, BY DEFINITION a raid encounter.  That's all it is. 

Ok, I should have added "the modern definition of.." but scaling never been a raid thing since ever, and I did wrote usually since games like EQ 1 & 2 have a few open raid bosses as well as instanced raids. 

Funny enough was I actually thinking of EQ and not Wow when I wrote that, it is the game that define raiding in my world at least.  When I started MMOs in M59 '96 there were no such thing as raids.

But raids and raid gear hang together nowadays, in some ways they have always done so. GW2 have no raid gear.

And calling all PvE for more than 6 players raids is really stretching it.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

2/21/12 7:35:57 AM#107
I'm old enough I just don't like raids and the consequences of basing a gale around raiding for the rest of the game.

E.g. pointless crafting / instanced mini game grind instead if real pvp.
  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16412

2/21/12 7:37:49 AM#108
Originally posted by arieste

But here, honestly, if you don't believe me that raiding on open world mobs with unlimited players existed, i googled "Anarchy Online Raiding"...

AO is an 11-year-old MMO and the first i had raided in.  All the bosses referred to are uninstanced world bosses that can be attacked by any amount of players and usually were killed by 50-100 players.

Here, take a look at this "Guide" and see if the raiding sounds "real" to you:

http://aovault.ign.com/View.php?view=Guides.Detail&id=89

I'm not saying GW2 will be anything like it, but as long as there are difficult mobs that require a lot of players and (i assume) provide some reward, people will band together into raids to kill them.

Had AO actually scaling raids? I must admit I missed that, I was playing Lineage back then, AO seemed so buggy.

  Skarecrow7

Novice Member

Joined: 12/15/10
Posts: 342

2/21/12 7:38:44 AM#109
Originally posted by evilastro
Originally posted by Ecoces
Originally posted by evilastro
Originally posted by select20

I just heard there is no raiding in this game? Is this true? I hope it's not true. I've been looking forward to this game for awhile, and if there is no raiding, I will deffinetly not play.

(I have a feeling some fanbois will flame this thread to hell and back).

No organised raids.

again did you guys see that video i linked .....

some have to fight the dragon

some have to man the cannons

some have to defend those using the cannons

some have to kill the undead

some have to kill the bone shields the dragon put up.

some have to kill the dragons tendrils (so they don't pull people  on the cannons to the dragon)

some have to defend the giant lazer thing

 

but you're right no organized raids at all.

 

Its not organised, its every random player in the zone coming over to help and doing various objectives.

Not the same as organising a set raid roster of 10-40 players at 7pm for 4 nights a week to clear raid zones.

Yeah, the way Anet has it, you might be able to get a girlfriend!

  nerovipus32

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 2698

2/21/12 7:38:48 AM#110

Every other mmo under the sun has raiding, so you've plenty of choice in the mmo genre if you're into raiding.

  Alders

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/10
Posts: 1643

I cannot fiddle but I can make a great state of a small city.

2/21/12 7:41:03 AM#111

Open world large scale raids are so much more fun when you eliminate the camping and first claim/tag mechanic.

I still remember camping stuff 8 years ago on 72 hour respawn times. I was thrilled when it was all instanced because i hated how much of a time waster it was.

Now i'm happy those mobs are being brought back out to open world, minus the stupid claiming mechanics.

  Xasapis

Tipster

Joined: 1/12/07
Posts: 5608

2/21/12 7:42:24 AM#112

No, they were just really hard. Some of them required that both factions cooperated to kill them.

  nerovipus32

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 2698

2/21/12 7:43:55 AM#113

People are so brainwashed by wow its funny. Eq 1 had raiding years before wow and it wasn't instanced..raiding != 20 to 40 people in an instanced dungeon.

  Zippy

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/24/03
Posts: 1428

2/21/12 7:46:48 AM#114
Originally posted by arieste
Originally posted by Zippy
Originally posted by arieste
Originally posted by Diovidius

Difficult PvE content will consist of 5-man dungeons and elite events. The later can lead to large open world bosses such as the Shatterer and Tequatl the Sunless which you can fight with up to a hundred players. Look them up on youtube.

There is your answer, so YES, there are raids.

There is a differencre bwtween a mob that can be raidied and actual progresion raid system.  When people speak of raids they mean progression raiding not  a few zerg mobs that require no thought just a computer to suffer through the lag.  Because a game has a few zerg mobs that are raidable does not mean it has progression raiding.

When people (like the OP) say "Raids" i assume they mean "Raids", you assume they mean "progression raiding".  A raid is a PvE encounter designed to be killed by more than one group.  Whether raiding becomes "progression" is largely defined by the difficulty, the rewards and the population.   If there are - let's say 10 - of these world mobs and they vary in difficulty, you can bet your ass that guilds will start tracking their progression on them, it's just human nature.   Before the age of instanced raid zones popularized by EQ2 and WoW, plenty of raid encounters were just massive HP (and special script) mobs that sat out in the open world and could be challenged by hordes of hundreds of players.  It was still raiding.

Technically any mob that can be killed by more than one group is "raiding."  But when people refer to "raiding"  they don't generally mean Zerg raiding but progression raiding.  In its modern form progression raiding are difficult mobs killed by raiding guilds. Mobs that require skill and tactics where skilled organized guidls progress much faster than bad guilds. There is quite a difference bteween zerg raiding and progression raiding.  EQ1's initial version of raiding allowed unlimited raid size but as raiding evolved into progression raiding mobs became limited to a certain number of players to prevent zerging, keep challenge and encounter  integrity.   Open world bosses that allow unlimited number of players that can be killed by zergs are generally more about numbers than strategy and skill.  Essentially they are public quest bosses not raid bosses. They are not progression mobs.   When people refer to raiding being in a game they normally mean progression raiding. 

When a raiding guild refers to raiding they mean progression raiding.  A non raider may not know the difference.  But raiders and raiding guilds do.  To say that a game has raiding because it has a few zergable mobsis misleading at best.  Under a non raiders definition maybe that is raiding.  But it is not what raiders or raiding guilds consider raiding.  Rather just a water downed imitation for the masses.  Not real raiding than anyone can take seriously or that anyone should call raiding. 

  arctarus

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/26/06
Posts: 2580

2/21/12 7:50:09 AM#115
Coming from knight online as my first mmo, I really love open world mobs, boss etc.. and finally I've found another game.doing just that, where everyone can participate just like war pq.

truly enough of raid or die where only a few can do it, where only a few can see the contents. These must change and I believe that gw2 will spurs a series of new mmo " end-game ".

RIP Orc Choppa

  wrathzilla

Novice Member

Joined: 12/04/09
Posts: 77

2/21/12 7:52:13 AM#116

Aren't there like 20 other threads on this EXACT same topic already? I'm suprised the mods haven't closed this yet.

  User Deleted
2/21/12 8:00:56 AM#117
Originally posted by Puremallace

The best we have is GW1 and that was a corpg and this just seems out there and the concepts literally make no sense to alot of people and me included. I can't tell if they will be massively failure or utterly change the genre.

I'm really suprised you said that.  I hope you do try GW2 and when you do, try and enjoy yourself :) 

 

  User Deleted
2/21/12 8:27:03 AM#118
Originally posted by select20

I just heard there is no raiding in this game? Is this true? I hope it's not true. I've been looking forward to this game for awhile, and if there is no raiding, I will deffinetly not play.

(I have a feeling some fanbois will flame this thread to hell and back).

I'm so glad there is no raiding. Every game has raiding. It's great that we can have one without it.  

 

I'm not flaming you, dude. Just play one of the the other zillion games with raiding gear grind treadmill. 

  arieste

Novice Member

Joined: 10/11/04
Posts: 3301

2/21/12 8:28:39 AM#119
Originally posted by Zippy

Technically any mob that can be killed by more than one group is "raiding."  But when people refer to "raiding"  they don't generally mean Zerg raiding but progression raiding.  In its modern form progression raiding are difficult mobs killed by raiding guilds. Mobs that require skill and tactics where skilled organized guidls progress much faster than bad guilds. There is quite a difference bteween zerg raiding and progression raiding.  EQ1's initial version of raiding allowed unlimited raid size but as raiding evolved into progression raiding mobs became limited to a certain number of players to prevent zerging, keep challenge and encounter  integrity.   Open world bosses that low unlimited number of players that can be killed by zergs are generally more about numbers than strategy and skill.  Essentially they are public quest bosses no raid bosses. They are not progression mobs.   When people refer to raiding being in a game they normally mean progression raiding. 

When a raiding guild refers to raiding they mean progression raiding.  A non raider may not know the difference.  But raiders and raiding guilds do.  To say that a game has raiding because it has a few zergable mobsis misleading at best.  Under a non raiders definition maybe that is raiding.  But it is not what raiders or raiding guilds consider raiding.  Rather just a water downed imitation for the masses.  Not real raiding than anyone can take seriously or that anyone should call raiding. 

Like I said, whether or not there ends up being progression will be defined by the community based on the difficulty.  If some of these bosses are really difficult and yield great rewards, there will be progression.  If they aren't, there probably won't.  It's going to have nothing to do with instancing or player limits (although both do technically play a part:  uninstanced generally controibutes to competition as it limits the supply of mobs, while lack of limits usually takes away from competition as tends to force zerg-type mechanics.)

 

Until we see the actual community, the number of raid mobs, their difficulty and the rewards, there is just no way to tell if the raiding (which IS in the game) will be progression or not.  And afaik, most of this information is currently unavailable.  All we know at the moment is that there are raidable mobs in the game, that they are non-instanced and that there is no player limit for fighting them.

 

Also, if you take into account certain common mechanics - like jousting AEs and curing detrimental effects quickly - these are just as dangerous to 1000 players as they are to a group of 10, so it's quite possible to design an encounter that's still challenging to an unlimited number of players.  The lack of player limit just takes away the "DPS check" type of encounter, although technically, if the boss scales HP to the number of players, it can still use that as well...

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  User Deleted
2/21/12 8:29:21 AM#120

this thread is still alive? it was a surprise to see it on the front page again.

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