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Dark Age of Camelot

Dark Age of Camelot 

Round Table Pub (General)  » Was DAOC a Theme Park or a Sand Box

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122 posts found
  jmcdermottuk

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/10/06
Posts: 791

4/04/12 6:13:09 AM#61

I'd have to agree with the people saying it was a hybrid. The PVE realms were themeparks, although they were less restrictive than current MMO themeparks, but essentially themeparks regardless.

 

Then at 50 you got to devote your time to RvR. Mythic gave you 3 border territories with keeps to siege/defend and 2 other realms full of people to smack in the face with a big stick. At this point it acquired a much more sandbox feel. The landscape was there, the castles were there, you just had to go and play in it, organise your sieges, defend your keeps etc.

 

So yeah, a hybrid. 1-50 themepark and RvR more sandboxy. Without doubt my best MMO experience so far until the fucked it up with ToA and the redesign of the border territories.

 

Edited: Spelling

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16700

4/04/12 6:14:02 AM#62
Originally posted by Zylaxx

Wrong

DAoC was a Sandbox

THE ONLY criteria to determine if a game is a sandbox or themepark is does the game guide you on rails or are you free to level as you like.  THATS IT, NOTHING ELSE .  Love how people thorw these small paradigms on top of the abbreviation of the words.

An open world is a type of video game level design where a player can roam freely through a virtual world and is given considerable freedom in choosing how or when to approach objectives.[1] Video games that include such level design often are referred to as "free roam" games.

The term is sometimes used interchangeably with "sandbox" and "free-roaming";[2][3] however, the terms open world and free-roaming describe the game environment itself and allude more to the absence of artificial barriers,[4] in contrast to the invisible walls and loading screens that are common in linear level designs. The term sandbox refers more to the mechanics of a game and how, as in a physical sandbox, the user is entertained by his ability to play creatively and with there being "no right way"[5] of playing the game.

Despite their name, many open world games still enforce restrictions at some points in the game environment, either due to absolute game design limitations or temporary in-game limitations (such as locked areas) imposed by a game's linearity.

A video game with nonlinear gameplay presents players with challenges that can be completed in a number of different sequences. Each player sees only some of the challenges possible, and the same challenges may be played in a different order. A video game with linear gameplay will confront a player with a fixed sequence of challenges. Every player sees every challenge and sees them in the same order.

A nonlinear game will allow greater player freedom than a linear game. For example, a nonlinear game may permit multiple sequences to finish the game, a choice between paths to victory, or optional side-quests and subplots. Some games feature both linear and nonlinear elements, and some games offer a sandbox mode that allows players to explore an open world game environment independently from the game's main objectives, if any objectives are provided at all.

A game that is significantly nonlinear is sometimes described as being open-ended or a sandbox,[1][2][3][4] and is characterized by there being no "right way" of playing the game.[5] A common consequence (intentional or unintentional) of open-ended gameplay is emergent gameplay.[4]

That would also make Lineage and plenty other of the old games sandboxes. . And it would make Guildwars 2 a sandbox as well, you are free to do what you like there as well.

You could call these games hybrids or something, but while they not might be themeparks that does not automatically make them sandboxes. What makes a game a sandbox is that the majority of the content is made by the players, not if it have linear quest chains or not.

It really looks like this:

                                                                                  Sandbox

                                                               Railroded                    personal freedom

                                                                              Themepark

While it is hard you can actually make a railroaded sandbox. In the beginning you would do linear quests to learn you the tools to create player made content. After that a few "kings" or whatever gives tells the other players what to do all the time. It would still be a sandbox but not very free for most of the players.

A themepark can also be rather free, like GW2.

  Dreamo84

Defender of Worlds

Joined: 5/20/04
Posts: 2992

I actually still like MMORPGs

4/04/12 6:14:37 AM#63

No more Sandbox than WoW in my opinion. Remember, DAOC invented the battlegrounds which almost define what a Themepark game is these days.

Ya, it was open world, but so is WoW. And DAOC actually restricts your movement more than WoW. You can't even goto the other factions areas in DAOC, PvP is restricted to the frontier.

  Dreamo84

Defender of Worlds

Joined: 5/20/04
Posts: 2992

I actually still like MMORPGs

4/04/12 6:19:25 AM#64
Originally posted by jmcdermottuk

I'd have to agree with the people saying it was a hybrid. The PVE realms were themeparks, although they were less restrictive than current MMO themeparks, but essentially themeparks regardless.

 

Then at 50 you got to devote your time to RvR. Mythic gave you 3 border territories with keeps to siege/defend and 2 other realms full of people to smack in the face with a big stick. At this point it acquired a much more sandbox feel. The landscape was there, the castles were there, you just had to go and play in it, organise your sieges, defend your keeps etc.

 

So yeah, a hybrid. 1-50 themepark and RvR more sandboxy. Without doubt my best MMO experience so far until the fucked it up with ToA and the redesign of the border territories.

 

Edited: Spelling

How can you call RvR sandboxy? It was all restricted to a specific area. Ya it wasn't match based pvp but it was still a ride you went on. You weren't free to figure out what you wanted to be in DAOC it was all about the RvR and thats a themepark with one ride even.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

4/04/12 6:36:17 AM#65
Daoc battlegrounds are VERY different to wow battlegrounds, they are persistent not matches, they are basicly there to train you for rvr while leveling.

Please don't lay the blame for crappy tupperware pvp at the door of daoc, that started with coh/wow/gw
  jmcdermottuk

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/10/06
Posts: 791

4/04/12 6:36:26 AM#66
Originally posted by Fendel84M
Originally posted by jmcdermottuk

I'd have to agree with the people saying it was a hybrid. The PVE realms were themeparks, although they were less restrictive than current MMO themeparks, but essentially themeparks regardless.

 

Then at 50 you got to devote your time to RvR. Mythic gave you 3 border territories with keeps to siege/defend and 2 other realms full of people to smack in the face with a big stick. At this point it acquired a much more sandbox feel. The landscape was there, the castles were there, you just had to go and play in it, organise your sieges, defend your keeps etc.

 

So yeah, a hybrid. 1-50 themepark and RvR more sandboxy. Without doubt my best MMO experience so far until the fucked it up with ToA and the redesign of the border territories.

 

Edited: Spelling

How can you call RvR sandboxy? It was all restricted to a specific area. Ya it wasn't match based pvp but it was still a ride you went on. You weren't free to figure out what you wanted to be in DAOC it was all about the RvR and thats a themepark with one ride even.

I didn't say it was definitively sandbox, but that it acquired a more sandbox feel. There were no specific tasks set for the RvR. There were just the borderlands and keeps. What you then did was up to you. Essentially that's player generated content, in the area provided. Isn't that like a sandbox? Yes, it was restricted to the borderlands, but that was part of the game design so the game would appeal to a larger audience that didn't want FFA PvP everywhere all the time like in UO.

There's no doubt that the game was essentially a PvE themepark, but the way they designed the RvR gave it more of a sandbox feel at endgame. You say it was one ride and all about RvR. Yeah it was, and getting there was very much a themepark. But once you got there you were free to decide what you would do, within the confines of the RvR territories. I don't see that confining it to the border territories makes any difference.

I'm not saying it was a sandbox in RvR, but it felt more like a sandbox than a themepark. At least it did to me. Feel free to disagree if you want to apply strict rules to what constitutes a sandbox. Personally I think Mythic did a good job of taking a themepark game and then very cleverly making it feel a little bit more like a sandbox in RvR.

  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11491

4/04/12 6:44:51 AM#67
Originally posted by jusomdude

If it came out today it would definetely be called themepark, with the best pvp.

Only, there was hardly a quest to be found. Most of my time in the game was spent grinding mobs, either in dungeons and groups or alone.

The dungeons weren't instanced to groups or players though, there could be many groups in the same dungeon.

i dont know why people say daoc had barely a quest to be found -  it seemed to have more quests than everquest

i played daoc on launch day and for 2 months after

 

DAOC had mail quests sending you off to dfferent areas (which also had quests),  quests for dungeons

and there were "class specific" quests at level 10, 20 etc

 

its all context in the end,  but when DAOC launched

Everquest was more like EverGrind compared to DAOC

  User Deleted
4/04/12 11:16:52 PM#68
Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by Zylaxx

Wrong

DAoC was a Sandbox

THE ONLY criteria to determine if a game is a sandbox or themepark is does the game guide you on rails or are you free to level as you like.  THATS IT, NOTHING ELSE .  Love how people thorw these small paradigms on top of the abbreviation of the words.

An open world is a type of video game level design where a player can roam freely through a virtual world and is given considerable freedom in choosing how or when to approach objectives.[1] Video games that include such level design often are referred to as "free roam" games.

The term is sometimes used interchangeably with "sandbox" and "free-roaming";[2][3] however, the terms open world and free-roaming describe the game environment itself and allude more to the absence of artificial barriers,[4] in contrast to the invisible walls and loading screens that are common in linear level designs. The term sandbox refers more to the mechanics of a game and how, as in a physical sandbox, the user is entertained by his ability to play creatively and with there being "no right way"[5] of playing the game.

Despite their name, many open world games still enforce restrictions at some points in the game environment, either due to absolute game design limitations or temporary in-game limitations (such as locked areas) imposed by a game's linearity.

A video game with nonlinear gameplay presents players with challenges that can be completed in a number of different sequences. Each player sees only some of the challenges possible, and the same challenges may be played in a different order. A video game with linear gameplay will confront a player with a fixed sequence of challenges. Every player sees every challenge and sees them in the same order.

A nonlinear game will allow greater player freedom than a linear game. For example, a nonlinear game may permit multiple sequences to finish the game, a choice between paths to victory, or optional side-quests and subplots. Some games feature both linear and nonlinear elements, and some games offer a sandbox mode that allows players to explore an open world game environment independently from the game's main objectives, if any objectives are provided at all.

A game that is significantly nonlinear is sometimes described as being open-ended or a sandbox,[1][2][3][4] and is characterized by there being no "right way" of playing the game.[5] A common consequence (intentional or unintentional) of open-ended gameplay is emergent gameplay.[4]

That would also make Lineage and plenty other of the old games sandboxes. . And it would make Guildwars 2 a sandbox as well, you are free to do what you like there as well.

You could call these games hybrids or something, but while they not might be themeparks that does not automatically make them sandboxes. What makes a game a sandbox is that the majority of the content is made by the players, not if it have linear quest chains or not.

It really looks like this:

                                                                                  Sandbox

                                                               Railroded                    personal freedom

                                                                              Themepark

While it is hard you can actually make a railroaded sandbox. In the beginning you would do linear quests to learn you the tools to create player made content. After that a few "kings" or whatever gives tells the other players what to do all the time. It would still be a sandbox but not very free for most of the players.

A themepark can also be rather free, like GW2.

By the very definition I think games like Lineage, DAoC and GW2 sandboxes. 

 

In the most basic defintion of the word it comes down to linearity.  Does a game guide you or do you have freedom.  All other defintions are personal opinion the whole idea for themeparks is that they guide you.

 

Sure in DAoC I could only level in certain areas pursuant to my level but that is because it was a level based system.  You still had freedom to move about in the zone killing whatever you wanted without need of questing.  SO in essence if a game is set up where leveling via questing is on a set path then it becomes linear, hence thempark.  If on the other hand you could level via exploration while killing then the game is a sandbox.

 

I know alot, if not most will agree with me but I deal in absolutes and truths not personal preferences contrived to fit in with some vague term.

  Laughing-man

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/23/09
Posts: 3384

I thought what I'd do is I'd pretend I was one of those Deaf-mutes.

4/04/12 11:23:55 PM#69

Taking wikipedia articles and linking them does not make an iron clad argument.

If you noticed when you looked up said terms, it linked you to "open world" not "sand box" because wikipedia isn't regulated by MMO gamers.  Its article is vague and loosely descriptive intentionally.

 

You can claim a sandbox is a game that merely doesn't have a guided tour of the place, however, we as gamers recognize there are more elements to it than that.

There have been many many threads debating this issue, This is not the first nor the last time we have this debate.

 

In short, DAoC is a Themepark with some sandbox elements, which frankly most people have already said this.

  BartDaCat

Novice Member

Joined: 7/07/04
Posts: 817

Gamer Forums, where "First World Problems" are our specialty!

4/04/12 11:28:59 PM#70

Well, besides standing around in a drum circle and beating the last remanents of this dead horse to a bloody, unrecognizable pulp, it seems that everyone that's posted has given you a pretty good idea of what kind of game DAoC was.

In any case, it was an awesome game, whatever label it falls under.

  gostly

Novice Member

Joined: 10/04/04
Posts: 135

losing all hope is freedom

4/04/12 11:32:35 PM#71

All I know is that when I first played DAoC, there was no in-game map, no digital download, the boxed version came with a physical map of the game that you used to help you get around. I miss those days.

  Riftstar

Novice Member

Joined: 3/16/09
Posts: 22

4/06/12 7:43:28 PM#72

I still have the old Prima guide for Shrouded Isles sitting around....

Playing: MWO
Waiting For: Star Citizen

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12263

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

4/06/12 8:25:30 PM#73

Thankfully, DAoC came out at a time when people weren't busy labelling and pigeonholing every game and just played it based on its own merits. Did it get compared to EQ and UO? Definitely, but it was on features and graphics, not on arbitrary personal checklists to assign it to a particular side of a fence.

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Riftstar

Novice Member

Joined: 3/16/09
Posts: 22

4/07/12 7:03:01 PM#74

The general feel I get from reading boards about every game coming out (or that has come out in teh last year)  is that it's either a WoW-killer, or it's going to flop, with no one thinking anything but one of the extremes is the correct answer. I keep hearing the word flop in conjunction with SWTOR for example and it's making money. If 1 million plus subs isn't success, what will change minds? 5 million? 

It's crazy what people expect nowadays.

Playing: MWO
Waiting For: Star Citizen

  User Deleted
4/07/12 7:08:15 PM#75
Originally posted by Riftstar

The general feel I get from reading boards about every game coming out (or that has come out in teh last year)  is that it's either a WoW-killer, or it's going to flop, with no one thinking anything but one of the extremes is the correct answer. I keep hearing the word flop in conjunction with SWTOR for example and it's making money. If 1 million plus subs isn't success, what will change minds? 5 million? 

It's crazy what people expect nowadays.

Technically EA says 1.7 million but I think its more like a couple hundred thousand.  On top of this most people consider it a flop because over half the player base has left within the first 2 months of release.  I dont care where you come from but that is a pretty damn good defenition of a flop in my book.

  Skuall

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/20/05
Posts: 807

4/07/12 7:12:43 PM#76
Originally posted by Loktofeit

Thankfully, DAoC came out at a time when people weren't busy labelling and pigeonholing every game and just played it based on its own merits. Did it get compared to EQ and UO? Definitely, but it was on features and graphics, not on arbitrary personal checklists to assign it to a particular side of a fence.

 

for me was the awesome archery system ! , was just amazing :3

  Axiom

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/17/03
Posts: 16

5/23/12 8:39:01 PM#77

To me DAoC was a damn fun game... but it is more to teh end of Theme Park since (again in my opinion) any game that gives you 'return 10 rat tail' types of quests is a Theme Park no matter how much paint you put on it.

  Morv

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/03
Posts: 334

5/23/12 8:46:10 PM#78
Originally posted by mlauzon

 


Originally posted by ShakyMo
Daoc is a themepark as is everquestThey just aren't wow clones (obviously)

 

There is no such thing as a WoW-clone, all MMORPGs are in fact clones of the first: Meridian 59!

Um, UO was nothing like Meridian 59. lol. ;)

  Vhaln

Novice Member

Joined: 7/07/05
Posts: 3167

5/23/12 8:47:33 PM#79

Themepark, obviously.  It was all about combat, but it was before themeparks had so much to do with questing.

When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.

  WellzyC

Novice Member

Joined: 10/04/11
Posts: 546

Ceaseless

5/23/12 8:52:41 PM#80

I guess themepark..  But it was old school.. so no quests or anything. mostly group grinding.

 

You had a house that you could decorate and craft in. Plus you could go get trophies and taxadermy from mobs you killed. And guilds could hold keeps and upgrade them. So it had some sandboxy features to it.

 

Like your sig (poster above me)   we think alike it seems

The way mmo's were: Community, Exploration, Character Development, Conquest.

The way mmo's are now : Cut-Scenes,Cut-Scenes, Linear Questing, Cut-Scenes...


www.CeaselessGuild.com

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