Everyone has different definitions of Themepark/Sandbox... Mine are:

Themepark

Quests

Levels

Instances

Crafting but not alot of building or construction

No item-decay

Sandbox

No quests

Skill based/not levels

Open World

Crafting/Building/Player-Construction Heavy

Item decay

So according to my definition... No. DAOC was not a sandbox.

I'd say definitely a thempark, just a very open-ended one.

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by jusomdude

I just want to know what the sandbox elements are, that people are claiming were in the game. The closest sandbox feature it had were open dungeons.

Everyone in the thread that has said sandbox has said so without a reason.

 LOL yeah I know.  It's not a sandbox in any way shape on form.

DAoC has specific areas for specific levels that provide a path for progression to max level just like any other themepark.  It also has classes with well defined roles...just like any other themepark.  And as for the RvR, it's all preconstructed zones that you fight over.  It's not like they are player created or controlled or anything.

I'm not saying it's bad, I loved DAoC, but I realize what it was.  It was a very good and unique early themepark.

Actually, DAOC was known for its unique class variety. It had over 27 classes to choose from. Many of these classes did not have defined roles, but were hybrids. Personally I loved it, I loved playing my mercenary and my reaver :D, mainly because my roles were not clearly defined.

DAOC was indeed a themepark. But one of the things that made it a good themepark were the classes.  There were many, many classes and I definitely preferred the variety to the ultra boring 5-6 class system that followed.

Originally posted by Ghost12

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by jusomdude

I just want to know what the sandbox elements are, that people are claiming were in the game. The closest sandbox feature it had were open dungeons.

Everyone in the thread that has said sandbox has said so without a reason.

 LOL yeah I know.  It's not a sandbox in any way shape on form.

DAoC has specific areas for specific levels that provide a path for progression to max level just like any other themepark.  It also has classes with well defined roles...just like any other themepark.  And as for the RvR, it's all preconstructed zones that you fight over.  It's not like they are player created or controlled or anything.

I'm not saying it's bad, I loved DAoC, but I realize what it was.  It was a very good and unique early themepark.

 

Actually, DAOC was known for its unique class variety. It had over 27 classes to choose from. Many of these classes did not have defined roles, but were hybrids. Personally I loved it, I loved playing my mercenary and my reaver :D, mainly because my roles were not clearly defined.

DAOC was indeed a themepark. But one of the things that made it a good themepark were the classes.  There were many, many classes and I definitely preferred the variety to the ultra boring 5-6 class system that followed.

 That's true, and I have have mispoke (typed?).  I didn't mean that DAoC's classes had very specific roles like "healer" or "tank."  I meant that DAoC's classes all had their "schtick" and were pretty much relegated to that.  Aborist summoned turrets, Bonedancers had a full party of pets, scouts sniped people, etc...  Admittedly, the schtick for some classes was very cool :).

My opinion is for many, a sandbox MMORPG is about more than playing  agame, it's about living in a completely open ended game world.  Some static features that are found in these games are open ended pvp, skill based character advancement, flexiability in where and how you choose to advance your character, and where crafting is a huge part of the economy.  

Basically to me a sandbox MMO is where you are not limited by linear level design or quest tracks but instead have the feedom to create your own content.  

Dark Ages of Camelot has some of these features.  Like open ended PVP where you could fight for keeps and guarding them whenever you wanted.  I wouldn't call this a true sandbox game though due to the linear advancements of the expansions.  But it definitly wasn't a full themepark MMO either and maybe that's what, in my opinion made the game so great!

I remember when I was young getting a call from my buddies at 2am saying our keep was being attacked by 2 factions and we had about 80 players show up to counter-attack, it doesn't get more open than that makes me really dislike the games like world of warcraft where you have to wait every 2 hours to take over an area like Tol'Barad or Wintergrasp.  Let's hope these new games coming out like The Secret World and Guild Wars 2 can make it truly feel alive!

Originally posted by jusomdude

I just want to know what the sandbox elements are, that people are claiming were in the game. The closest sandbox feature it had were open dungeons.

Everyone in the thread that has said sandbox has said so without a reason.

 That's ok you can flip the same reasoning on it's head and claim every game is a themepark, as many have for various games commonly considered sandboxes.. That's because there is no such thing as a sandbox "element."  A sandbox game has a nonlinear gameplay mode. That's the actual definition although people try to throw all sorts oif things in to support their agendas. People will argue that in circles for hours instead of asking the real question: How linear was DAOC? It was pretty linear. Ultima Online was linear too, just not nearly as much. Any game with any character progression is at least a bit linear. Other MMOs have been a lot more linear.

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by jusomdude

I just want to know what the sandbox elements are, that people are claiming were in the game. The closest sandbox feature it had were open dungeons.

Everyone in the thread that has said sandbox has said so without a reason.

 That's ok you can flip the same reasoning on it's head and claim every game is a themepark, as many have for various games commonly considered sandboxes.. That's because there is no such thing as a sandbox "element."  A sandbox game has a nonlinear gameplay mode. That's the actual definition although people try to throw all sorts oif things in to support their agendas. People will argue that in circles for hours instead of asking the real question: How linear was DAOC? It was pretty linear. Ultima Online was linear too, just not nearly as much. Any game with any character progression is at least a bit linear. Other MMOs have been a lot more linear.

Ok, so I guess then we can call WoW a sandbox also since it has different spec branches, and a choice of areas to level.

There are sandbox elements to games. Open ended skill progression... that's an element. That's more of a programming term though, if you like you can call it a sandbox feature.

Originally posted by jusomdude

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by jusomdude

I just want to know what the sandbox elements are, that people are claiming were in the game. The closest sandbox feature it had were open dungeons.

Everyone in the thread that has said sandbox has said so without a reason.

 That's ok you can flip the same reasoning on it's head and claim every game is a themepark, as many have for various games commonly considered sandboxes.. That's because there is no such thing as a sandbox "element."  A sandbox game has a nonlinear gameplay mode. That's the actual definition although people try to throw all sorts oif things in to support their agendas. People will argue that in circles for hours instead of asking the real question: How linear was DAOC? It was pretty linear. Ultima Online was linear too, just not nearly as much. Any game with any character progression is at least a bit linear. Other MMOs have been a lot more linear.

Ok, so I guess then we can call WoW a sandbox also since it has different spec branches, and a choice of areas to level.

There are sandbox elements to games. Open ended skill progression... that's an element. That's more of a programming term though, if you like you can call it a sandbox feature.

 You can. You'd be right too. What you can't say is WoW is less lnear than DAOC because WoW is much more linear. It's not particular features that matter it's the overall gameplay. No single feature or set of features defines what is or isn't a sandbox. It's not a binary question it's a matter of degrees.

I think in its time it was a Themebox but now its a sandbox compared to for example swtor or wow.

I wouldn't define it as either, from a long time mmoer perspective. I wouldn't really define any of the earlier mmos, since so many of them were mostly open worlds where you would pretty much grind for everything you wanted. Crafting Grind, Leveling Grind, PvP Rank Grind. Maybe we should call them Grinders :P

With that being said, I remember DAoC as being the mmo that got me into PvP. A game that I loved and hated, but left me with many fond memories.

PvP = Sandbox

PvE = Themepark (if you call grinding mobs at a camp that)

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by jusomdude

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by jusomdude

I just want to know what the sandbox elements are, that people are claiming were in the game. The closest sandbox feature it had were open dungeons.

Everyone in the thread that has said sandbox has said so without a reason.

 That's ok you can flip the same reasoning on it's head and claim every game is a themepark, as many have for various games commonly considered sandboxes.. That's because there is no such thing as a sandbox "element."  A sandbox game has a nonlinear gameplay mode. That's the actual definition although people try to throw all sorts oif things in to support their agendas. People will argue that in circles for hours instead of asking the real question: How linear was DAOC? It was pretty linear. Ultima Online was linear too, just not nearly as much. Any game with any character progression is at least a bit linear. Other MMOs have been a lot more linear.

Ok, so I guess then we can call WoW a sandbox also since it has different spec branches, and a choice of areas to level.

There are sandbox elements to games. Open ended skill progression... that's an element. That's more of a programming term though, if you like you can call it a sandbox feature.

 You can. You'd be right too. What you can't say is WoW is less lnear than DAOC because WoW is much more linear. It's not particular features that matter it's the overall gameplay. No single feature or set of features defines what is or isn't a sandbox. It's not a binary question it's a matter of degrees.

It can be a binary question, for instance if game a has all linear features, then it is themepark. If game b has all sandbox features, it's sandbox.

Calling a game that has more themepark features than sandbox features a sandbox just doesn't make sense.

I notice this term "Open World"

is being used to label games as sandbox or not.

To me, "Open World" is a Persistent World & Seamless World.

But all MMO have Persistent World. But many Themepark MMO have Seamless worlds. Even WoW has that.

Skyrim is called a Sandbox, but why? The world is just as open and seamless as WoW is. Where the sandbox come from?

Originally posted by MMOExposed

I notice this term "Open World"

is being used to label games as sandbox or not.

To me, "Open World" is a Persistent World & Seamless World.

 

But all MMO have Persistent World. But many Themepark MMO have Seamless worlds. Even WoW has that.

Skyrim is called a Sandbox, but why? The world is just as open and seamless as WoW is. Where the sandbox come from?

The main reason Skyrim is called a sandbox is because there is no set path that the player must follow to progress... For instance, I can go to any dungeon I want once I finish the intro area. Also, you can skillup your character any way you want.

Whereas in games like WoW, there is no way I can enter some areas, or dungeons unless I'm a certain level.

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by Wicoa

Just came up with this question in my head its friday night and I have a glass of wine, yes this is how geeks party.

In daoc I did not follow quest paths, from a low level it was about finding a group and grinding up mobs at various patches with people.  You could build your own house and RvR was an open ended pvp situation.

Let me know what you think.

It was mainly a themepark, but it had some virtual worlds influences.

Agreed.

That said, the combination of DAoC's territorial gameplay, three faction system, and diversity in endgame rewards (personal, group, faction) made for a solid foundation for the politics and epic field battles (large and small) that it's famous for. In the absence of tools for sandbox gameplay, it provided an environment that fostered a good amount of the diplomacy, metagaming and emergent behaviour that sandbox games are known for.

Originally posted by MMOExposed

I notice this term "Open World"

is being used to label games as sandbox or not.

To me, "Open World" is a Persistent World & Seamless World.

 

But all MMO have Persistent World. But many Themepark MMO have Seamless worlds. Even WoW has that.

Skyrim is called a Sandbox, but why? The world is just as open and seamless as WoW is. Where the sandbox come from?

Open world = zoneless world, doesnt necessarily mean seamless.  Even though WoW was seemless it still had specific zones situated for a particular level.

DAoC IMO was a sandbox because for me the 2 main criteria for determining if an MMO is sandbox or not is 1.  linear progression i.e. being "breadcrumbed" along a specific path doesnt matter if there are multiple paths or not.  And 2. focus is on things to do at level cap or more commonly referred to as "end game".

Originally posted by Kaneth

I wouldn't define it as either,

Indeed.

It isn't a sandbox game.  The game isn't free form like UO or EvE...

but on the other hand it isn't themepark either because it doesn't lead you quest by quest.

Thats the problem when we have Themepark / Sandbox discussions..  weve all fallin into the mental trap of thinking that those are the only two ways an MMO can be.

The PvE part of the game seemed more themepark to me. Especially when master levels and champion levels were introduced. They had a very linear feel.

RvR is where i found most of the sandbox feel of the game. For me anyway, one thing that makes a game a sandbox is, do the players have an effect on the world. In RvR you control territory , fight over relics which give realm buffs, and even control access to a zone through RvR. (darkness falls). Even small things like my woodworker being able to repair keep doors, gave me the feeling i was having an effect on the world. Sometimes it was up to the player as to what kind of experience they wanted. Being a siegecrafter and building your own siegeweapons would probably give you more of a sandbox feeling. Whereas if you just payed the siege npc to go out and build weapons for you, it would be more themepark imo. One of the things that made DaoC great was the choices you were given to make your own game experience.  Which is something i feel newer games lack.

If you were to ask me to pick just one i would say themepark. Because i spent a lot more time in PvE than i did in RvR. I can however see that people who spent most of there time in RvR may see it as more of a sandbox.

Some of you don't seem to understand the concept of a Themepark, or a Sandbox.

IF you know what the two ACTUALLY mean you would have been able to clearly see that DAOC was, in fact, a SandPark.

Just to give you an "Overall" definition:

Themepark: Is an MMO that "guides" you down a specific path in order to experience the content developers created with SPECIFIC outcomes in mind. This generally happens with LINEAR quests that go from point A to point F handing off each quest to another quest. Meaning your starter village will have Quest A, the next village will finish A and will give quest B, and so forth until you reach the last village where quest F finishes off. Obviously this is an exagerated example as modern MMOs cleaverly disguise the "Linearality" design, but it's there.

The term "Themepark" describes the overall capacity of the product to allow the Player/Customer to actually explore, experience, and interact with the world itself. It has no DIRECT impact as to whether the game is classless or not, but generally themeparks use SET classes that are essentially the same as the next player with the same class. "Talent" systems do NOT differentiate classes as much as you think, so they are NOT and exception.

Sandbox: Is an MMO that does NOT "guide" you down ANY specific path and allows the player complete freedom (relatively speaking due to technology constraints) to interact with the world as a whole as they see fit. Don't like that windy sandy path down that MASSIVE open field? There are generally speaking no "Invisible Walls" here to keep you from your exploration giddyness. Again, technology constaints have an impact on world size & whether or not there are instances or loading screens. Freedom, is the CORE concept of a Sandbox MMO.

DAOC was a SAND-PARK. A mix between BOTH Themepark & Sandbox.

Cheers!