I played pen and paper RPG for ten years before finding MMOs.  And in those pen and paper games you didnt gain anything then skills. You could play for years with one character, and you still had maybe 13 HP.

It didnt matter if you were the best swordfighter in the world, one smack to your chatacters head would kiil it.

The "quests" or adventures was what mattered, not soke number.

It was not untill WoW that i saw levels for the first time, wondering what the hell it was!

Originally posted by daarco

I played pen and paper RPG for ten years before finding MMOs.  And in those pen and paper games you didnt gain anything then skills. You could play for years with one character, and you still had maybe 13 HP.

It didnt matter if you were the best swordfighter in the world, one smack to your chatacters head would kiil it.

The "quests" or adventures was what mattered, not soke number.

It was not untill WoW that i saw levels for the first time, wondering what the hell it was!

Levels, or skill levels, have existed for like 20 years or more.

It isn't about simply scaling up stats, it's about diversification and gaining new powers. Games like the original Fallout titles did this extremely well, allowing you to invest in specific skills and perks as you progressed, which actively shaped how you experienced the game world. Pokemon is another example of a game which did this well- the increase in attack options and complex battle system which opens up as you level up makes the process worthwhile. And no, nobody ever complained about the grass outside Pallet Town not being challenging enough to a team of level 70s.

Most MMOs on the other hand seem to think that leveling up should be nothing but a progression grind... pushing ahead without actually changing the content of battle. A battle at level 1 might require exactly the same skills and tactics as a battle at level 30 except with lower stats. All this serves to do is encourage players to buy EXP boosters and gives people who do a huge edge in PvP.

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by Madatan

I wouldnt mind seeing a compromise. A levelling system that makes you powerful but the mobs remain fairly the same. Instead it gets difficult in other areas, perhaps more mobs at the same time are gonna attack you. Or maybe when you stand there at lvl 50, basically a demi-god, and fight 50 mobs at the same time. What if there was flying mobs all of a sudden, increasing difficulty but still maintaining the feeling of being powerful.

That is my biggest let down with most mmos. I am supposed to be an ascended, or a jedi master or whatever. But I will still have trouble beating som troll or droid just because they got a 50 no their head.

TTS has that! Except even better.

/evangelize

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/JoshuaMcDonald/20120209/9402/What_the_current_RPG_can_learn_from_Diablo_1.php

Funny how way back when Game Devs understood that system, and Blizzard of all people, the irony is so delicious.

Originally posted by Robsolf

Progression is not only a defining characteristic of an RPG, paper or digital, it's also a defining characteristic of human nature.

Just consider the difference between the attitude of 2 people; one who wakes up every day with the idea that they'll be more productive/wise/intelligent/knowlegable/prosperous, and another who knows that it's all downhill for the rest of their lives, or even just the same.

And as far as gaming mechanics go, you're limited in what enemies you can introduce to a character that challenges competence.  How can you make a lowly goblin a challenge, but then have the character go off and fight a dragon?

Finally, without progression, you have a game which is like a first person shooter, except vastly inferior.

 

Back in 1976 TSR released Metamorphasis Alpha, a pnp rpg set in a space ship.  Character started with all the stats and abilities and never gained improvements.  The lack of character progression outside of the exploration and finding gear was a major let down for the community.  It demonstrated how important character progression was to pnp rpgs.

Originally posted by UknownAspect

 

Isn't there a better way to advance a character without just adding some arbitrary numbers?  A lot of action games add new moves, or more functionality (think Zelda).  

 

If you advance your character by getting new move, that's like getting more powerful too.

Because if your character was static throughout the game or even got weaker during the game, you would feel like your time is being wasted.  An MMO should have the goal to retain a subscriber for as long as possible, so the player should feel like they are accomplishing something - not only in the story and the world, but also with their character. 

I flipped tables when, playing Oblivion, I came across a bandit (normally enemies that wore hide armour) that was decked out in full glass, the most expensive light armour available, and tried to make me pay a fare of 5 gold.  In Oblivion, you either stayed the same or got weaker as the game went on as enemies either got better equipment or got their health bloated, which makes no sense. 

If my character was previously challenged by a goblin village during my first steps into a game, but later went on to become the hero of the world through an amazing amount of time and effort, I should be able to completely obliterate goblins when I return.  They shouldn't 'scale to my level' or receive 10000 more health to provide a 'challenge' for me.  Did pen and paper RPGs make you static or weaker as you progressed?  How about some of the actual good cRPGs (PS:T, Bloodlines)?

Should basic rats in the newbie area suddenly become giant sacks of health with diamond-tipped fangs and poison saliva if your Swordsmanship skill increases to 50?  When you get that Breastplate of Armchair Game Development +5 (chance to post a devcorner thread that makes no sense when hit), should all the monsters in the game hit you as if you were wearing Minor Rags of Sandbox Threads -1 (chance to post a sandbox thread on this site when hit)?

I agree completely with the OP, we need more games where you dont gain "hard levels" that makes your character a demigod towards earlier content, leveling imo should only give you new abilities and talents, so that there's point in going back to earlier areas. Leveling should expand your tools and perhaps accessibility in the game world through completing content, but I'd really wish to see this "hard levels" crap to get scrapped.

No hard stat based levels would also balance open world PvP alot more when a "low level" fights a "high level" player, good low level player would have a chance against bad high level player, which is not the case currently when you simply cant scratch them no matter what you do at low level, it kills immersion too, when you the hero of the world cant even touch some fool just because the number next to your name is not high enough. If the number would only be linked to the pool of your abilites or something similar, not hitpoints, strength etc, it would even out a lot and be a lot more immersive system.

Originally posted by Kuinn

I agree completely with the OP, we need more games where you dont gain "hard levels" that makes your character a demigod towards earlier content, leveling imo should only give you new abilities and talents, so that there's point in going back to earlier areas. Leveling should expand your tools and perhaps accessibility in the game world through completing content, but I'd really wish to see this "hard levels" crap to get scrapped.

 

No hard stat based levels would also balance open world PvP alot more when a "low level" fights a "high level" player, good low level player would have a chance against bad high level player, which is not the case currently when you simply cant scratch them no matter what you do at low level, it kills immersion too, when you the hero of the world cant even touch some fool just because the number next to your name is not high enough. If the number would only be linked to the pool of your abilites or something similar, not hitpoints, strength etc, it would even out a lot and be a lot more immersive system.

He is also the hero of the world dude. Duh. You are just a shittier hero of the world.

You guys obviously don't understand that if you do it with skill progression the top players will still win because they wil get their spec off a website. There will be terribly good skill interactions and everyone will use them and you might as well just have levels.

Would you expect a trainee guard to beat a vet or a captain of the guard company? No? Duh. RPGs are not designed to have fair PvP. Trying to make an FPS out of an RPG is always doomed to fail.

Originally posted by Khaeros

Because if your character was static throughout the game or even got weaker during the game, you would feel like your time is being wasted.  An MMO should have the goal to retain a subscriber for as long as possible, so the player should feel like they are accomplishing something - not only in the story and the world, but also with their character.

You can have perfectly good leveling system without the need to gain 100k hitpoints, in fact you dont need a single hitpoint during the leveling, just abilities and talents etc, then your character improves all the time so you get the feeling of improving and expanding on your char but you dont get retartedly powerful demigod, who can fart earlier areas to oblivion and who still cant even touch some higher end areas because the number next to the name does not allow it. Very limiting system that causes huge imbalances in world PvP and creates impenetrable artificial barriers everywhere you look untill you hit max level.

I think the old system is fine, in sense that I play games that use it and enjoy my self doing so, it's just that I'd enjoy a lot more system that is a bit more open and does not define characters entirely based on A.) The little number next to their names or B.) Their gear level if they are on max level. Both of those should affect the character, but not define the character.

Now I'm gonna rant here for a little so you can just ignore me if you want.

 First off i do agree that progression is important, and the lv up system that has been a defining method of progress since the start of modern games, and it works quite well... that said at a certain point it just seems silly. Take, for instance, a lv 3 goblin, now if your character is lv 1 it might seem a bit of a challenge to kill, now with that over with 20 lvs latter your fight a huge lv 20 dragon boss, and this guy is a hell of a b*tch to kill. you have been at it for 30 min and you finally fell the beast, then another one pops up and a lv 60 goblin walks up and one hits it... da fuq. a goblin could kill that beast in an instant after all that time you spent facing off against it... oh wait there is more remember that lv 3 goblin, well he comes up a smashes you in the skull with his spiked club, oh wait pft who cares that attack that used to take half your health doesn't do crap to you now... a now, once again a da fuq moment. there is no way in hell that getting smashed in the skull with a spiked club would do nothing to you, and there is no way in hell that a crappy goblin would be able to take down a dragon in a single blow.

At such poin the flaws of lving become painfully obvious, and yet as mmos, neigh, nearly all games today are nearly completely bound to this system. however to change such a system one would have to drastically change the core mechanics of the said game. And even if you try to break away from such a system you are still bound to the need of progression. oh and by the way a tip of my hat to Nexon for at the vary least trying to do it with such games as mabinogi, dragon's nest, and vindictus. that said no one has ever been able to truly succeed at it. and i give a big ol wag of my finger to all the WoW clones out there who don't even bother trying.

Now i know that games, and in particular mmos, have large developing times that goes into, and that sometimes one simply cannot afford to take such risks. However as technology advanced faster and faster one starts to expect more and more from their games. And i understand that sometimes it is better to just continue doing what you are doing, but at some point someone is going to have to take a leap of faith less the world be doomed to continually repeat the same mistakes over and over again till the end of time.

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by Kuinn

I agree completely with the OP, we need more games where you dont gain "hard levels" that makes your character a demigod towards earlier content, leveling imo should only give you new abilities and talents, so that there's point in going back to earlier areas. Leveling should expand your tools and perhaps accessibility in the game world through completing content, but I'd really wish to see this "hard levels" crap to get scrapped.

 

No hard stat based levels would also balance open world PvP alot more when a "low level" fights a "high level" player, good low level player would have a chance against bad high level player, which is not the case currently when you simply cant scratch them no matter what you do at low level, it kills immersion too, when you the hero of the world cant even touch some fool just because the number next to your name is not high enough. If the number would only be linked to the pool of your abilites or something similar, not hitpoints, strength etc, it would even out a lot and be a lot more immersive system.

He is also the hero of the world dude. Duh. You are just a shittier hero of the world.

You guys obviously don't understand that if you do it with skill progression the top players will still win because they wil get their spec off a website. There will be terribly good skill interactions and everyone will use them and you might as well just have levels.

Would you expect a trainee guard to beat a vet or a captain of the guard company? No? Duh. RPGs are not designed to have fair PvP. Trying to make an FPS out of an RPG is always doomed to fail.

You are missing the point, I dont ask to open up ability pools which would create FOTM classes. Indeed, a better player SHOULD win, with hard level based system (100hp VS. 10,000hp /facepalm) it has nothing to do with if you are a better player or not. Guard captain should win over the new recruit but the captain WILL LOSE if he is 10 levels lower than the recruit lol.

Originally posted by Kuinn

You can have perfectly good leveling system without the need to gain 100k hitpoints, in fact you dont need a single hitpoint during the leveling, just abilities and talents etc, then your character improves all the time so you get the feeling of improving and expanding on your char but you dont get retartedly powerful demigod, who can fart earlier areas to oblivion and who still cant even touch some higher end areas because the number next to the name does not allow it. Very limiting system that causes huge imbalances in world PvP and creates impenetrable artificial barriers everywhere you look untill you hit max level.

 

I think the old system is fine, in sense that I play games that use it and enjoy my self doing so, it's just that I'd enjoy a lot more system that is a bit more open and does not define characters entirely based on A.) The little number next to their names or B.) Their gear level if they are on max level. Both of those should affect the character, but not define the character.

It doesn't matter what progresses - HP, levels, skills, items, whatever.  There still needs to be progression in order for it to not be bad.  I didn't say levels entirely - did you check the bottom paragraph of my post?

Because Luke Skywalker can't even think about beating the final boss Darth Vader until he levels up on training droids, recieves experience points from Yoda, defeats the dungeon boss Rancor, gets a Medallion with +stats from the Rebellion, and does a darth vadar easy mode in Cloud City.  THEN he will be ready for Death Star HardMode with the Emperor Bonus Boss.

Does that explain why you need to level up?

Originally posted by Kuinn

Originally posted by Cuathon

Originally posted by Kuinn

I agree completely with the OP, we need more games where you dont gain "hard levels" that makes your character a demigod towards earlier content, leveling imo should only give you new abilities and talents, so that there's point in going back to earlier areas. Leveling should expand your tools and perhaps accessibility in the game world through completing content, but I'd really wish to see this "hard levels" crap to get scrapped.

 

No hard stat based levels would also balance open world PvP alot more when a "low level" fights a "high level" player, good low level player would have a chance against bad high level player, which is not the case currently when you simply cant scratch them no matter what you do at low level, it kills immersion too, when you the hero of the world cant even touch some fool just because the number next to your name is not high enough. If the number would only be linked to the pool of your abilites or something similar, not hitpoints, strength etc, it would even out a lot and be a lot more immersive system.

He is also the hero of the world dude. Duh. You are just a shittier hero of the world.

You guys obviously don't understand that if you do it with skill progression the top players will still win because they wil get their spec off a website. There will be terribly good skill interactions and everyone will use them and you might as well just have levels.

Would you expect a trainee guard to beat a vet or a captain of the guard company? No? Duh. RPGs are not designed to have fair PvP. Trying to make an FPS out of an RPG is always doomed to fail.

 

You are missing the point, I dont ask to open up ability pools which would create FOTM classes. Indeed, a better player SHOULD win, with hard level based system (100hp VS. 10,000hp /facepalm) it has nothing to do with if you are a better player or not. Guard captain should win over the new recruit but the captain WILL LOSE if he is 10 levels lower than the recruit lol.

No you are missing the point. Games based on who is the better player are called first person shooters. If you don't want to play RPGs then don't fucking play RPGs.

You did ask for FOTM classes. How can you lie to my face like that? You asked for progression to be based on your pool of abilities. THAT MEANS YOU WILL HAVE FLAVOR OF THE MONTH CLASSES. This is basic simple logic. Some abilities will be better than others and people will use only the good ones.

Why is it so difficult to understand that RPGs are not about twitch?

What the fuck is with this better player thing? RPGs are about the CHARACTER. Not the player. The character is better at using swords.

What the fuck do you think a fucking dragon is going to die because you can press the left movement key really well? If a dragon breathes fire on you, a regular person without 1000000 hit points you are going to fucking burn alive in like 1 second.

I am actually fine with removing progressive hitpoints, but how is raising your fire resist any less arbitrary than having more health?

RPGs are not about being better at twitch.

Originally posted by UknownAspect

Seriously, why is this such a staple in MMOs and RPGs in general.  

Every RPG these days gives me +5 stat points every time I level or get a new item.  But... why?

The only thing I can think of is to provide an artificial gate so I don't go on to more powerful content.  But what this does is overpower me for content that I've already completed making it absolutely trivial to go back and participate in it again, unless I reroll.

Now a lot of games have mentoring systems that bring a higher player down or a lower player up or whatever so that the content means something again.... but then begs the question, why did I even have to become more powerful to begin with?

So obviously, the only real reason you get +stat things as we advance is to give a false sense of accomplishment by seeing larger numbers above my target.

 

Isn't there a better way to advance a character without just adding some arbitrary numbers?  A lot of action games add new moves, or more functionality (think Zelda).  

All the while this advances the way the game is played, by allowing the devs to create new and different puzzles and boss encounters.  Right now, MMOs for the most part just advance the story and the mobs get to do more damage and take more damage.  It's virtually the same as all the levels before it.

This is a problem that needs addressing.

It's not a problem that needs addressing. What you want is a different genre.  Action/Adventure, Adventure, or Action with RPG elements.
 

Devil May Cry is an action game.

Devil May Cry 3 is an action game with RPG elements (most action games these days like to incorporate some type of item, or player leveling).

Adventure games are similar to RPG's, but are RPG-lite. There are watered down versions of a full RPG (this should not be equated with "worse").

Zelda is an adventure game.

Skyrim is an RPG.

Some people like RPG's, but they don't really want all the fiddly stats and such.

Action/Adventure is Diablo 2. It's a hack'nslash action type gameplay with a gameworld with lore and a few RPG elements, but it doesn't fully fall on either side.

Originally posted by Robsolf

Progression is not only a defining characteristic of an RPG, paper or digital, it's also a defining characteristic of human nature.

Just consider the difference between the attitude of 2 people; one who wakes up every day with the idea that they'll be more productive/wise/intelligent/knowlegable/prosperous, and another who knows that it's all downhill for the rest of their lives, or even just the same.

And as far as gaming mechanics go, you're limited in what enemies you can introduce to a character that challenges competence.  How can you make a lowly goblin a challenge, but then have the character go off and fight a dragon?

Finally, without progression, you have a game which is like a first person shooter, except vastly inferior.

I agree.

OP, I think you're in the wrong genre.

There is a natural need for humans to become more powerful. More money, more career successful, more girls (or guys) ....

RPG is just a reflection of that psychological need.

The focus of any RPG is to play a role in that world.

But to answer your question about why you have to become more powerful... You dont have to.  You can decide to after you get your butt smeared by that pig outside of town because you attacked it thinking it was going to be an easy meal.

Originally posted by Rusque

Action/Adventure is Diablo 2. It's a hack'nslash action type gameplay with a gameworld with lore and a few RPG elements, but it doesn't fully fall on either side.

Ironically, the skill trees in d2, with all the possibilities are something which very few mmo games have managed to outdo.

Flame on!

:)