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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » GW2: No Skill Choice..

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35 posts found
  drbaltazar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/28/07
Posts: 7987

2/15/12 3:01:40 PM#21

you dont understand before you were limited to 2 class now if i understand correctly you get them all.just change your weapon etc and your skill related to that change also !it give you way more skill then before and lot more strategy

" bunk!there will be no team dominating?check this out ,within a week the first 10 team build will be out and then there will be a lot of them .i tell you  some were hardcore theorycrafter back when gw1 was huge!they came up with build that shaped gw1 ,even the dev had to evolve and correct weekly because theorycrafter were faster!those guys arent building solo build  now!

i bet most that were hardcore in gw1 when it was at its peak have already been readying for weeks to have their 3 team build ready for lunch!

i bet even arenanet doesnt know how hardcore or not hardcore the game will be the only one that probably know are the theorycrafter themselves!but i bet it will be awsome to watch

  Herodes

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/03
Posts: 1488

Consumer

2/15/12 3:02:23 PM#22

My impression from the posts of GW-fans was, that having only 8 choices for skills out of a big pool was actually a strenght of GW1. No more millions of buttons on the screen and such.

And...balance?
1. Do you want to sacrifice diversity because of balance?
2. How do we balance people who use better connection, or hardware and such?

  drbaltazar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/28/07
Posts: 7987

2/15/12 3:16:54 PM#23

calie 59 :gw1 never was that way even if arenanet wished it had been ,some pro theorycrafter came in there with impossible build yet they still always managed to win!cause they had a plan !and a fall back and another fall back!it was so hard core korean ,and other namtion joined in and from what i saw they all loved the competition!its hard to explain!if you can find video on youtube about some top team check them go you ll understand what i mean!

  Homitu

Novice Member

Joined: 10/01/09
Posts: 2045

2/15/12 4:09:34 PM#24

I haven't watched the video yet because I'm at work, but overall I'm very excited about the smaller number of abilities compared to most MMOs--particularly if you have to make compelling choices about which abilities you place on your bar--you know, the way most single player RPGs require you to choose.  For whatever reason, it seems many MMOs do not include ability setups in your primary character customization and progression; you choose a class and specialization, and from there you acquire every single ability specific to that specialization, without restriction. 

I only worry that some ability slots will be too homogenized that they will all feel very similar, or conversely, that there will be variety, but one ability will almost always be universally chosen over all others.  For example, every single class's utility skill thus far appears to be a basic 40-60% self heal.  The only slight varation I've seen was the Necro's blood fiend, which attacks while it is alive, but is then sacrificed for the same 40-60% heal.  I hope there are some different utility abilities that players will want or need to take in some circumstances, things like shields, resistances, or aoe movement speed buffs.  It's hard to imagine sacrificing your only source of sustainability for any of those though...

  Wyrd01

Novice Member

Joined: 1/18/12
Posts: 27

2/15/12 4:50:08 PM#25
Originally posted by andre369

I agree to a certain degree, but they could easily have made the different weapons have 15 different skills to choose from instead of just 5. But if I want to play pure DPS hammer why can't i? 

If i play a ranger, why can't I choose to play a purely DPS ranger with a bow and have zero CC? 

If they allowed that customization it would destroy what they're trying to do, eliminate the holy-trinity. 

If you were a pure DPS hammer then you'd be a more effective DPS than another, less DPS focused build, and then the DPS hammer build would be "required" for dungeon runs, as would the "tank" Guardian and "healer" engineer builds. 

The fact that ANet mixed DPS, healing, and CC into each weapon set means everyone can always help fill any role at any time.

  Master10K

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/18/10
Posts: 3086

2/15/12 8:59:12 PM#26
Originally posted by Homitu

[...]

I only worry that some ability slots will be too homogenized that they will all feel very similar, or conversely, that there will be variety, but one ability will almost always be universally chosen over all others.  For example, every single class's utility skill thus far appears to be a basic 40-60% self heal.  The only slight varation I've seen was the Necro's blood fiend, which attacks while it is alive, but is then sacrificed for the same 40-60% heal.  I hope there are some different utility abilities that players will want or need to take in some circumstances, things like shields, resistances, or aoe movement speed buffs.  It's hard to imagine sacrificing your only source of sustainability for any of those though...

Seems to me like you simply just don't understand the mechanics in the game. I mean there's a huge difference between summoning a Blood Fiend that can be killed by a foe, leaving you at a disadvantage, to another self-heal that is more effective when you have conditions stacked on yourself and will wipe those conditions clean. Like when I make my Elementalist for PvP, I will definitely choose "Signet of Restoration" over "Glyph of Elemental Harmony", because it suits my playstyle. ArenaNet have put in a lot of thought into their skill and skill placement, which is why they've still been changing things around recently.

 

As for this issue regarding the reason why ArenaNet changed the skills system from GW1 to GW2, the dev behind a lot of the skill design and balancing talked about it here in this video.

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4852

2/15/12 10:18:08 PM#27

For those still concerned with skill choices, I'd strongly suggest checking out one of the skill calculators. They aren't even finish (and are probably going to change), but between weapons, skills, and traits, there is a surprising amount of flexibility. For example, certain traits can change how a skill functions, effectively making it a different skill. You could, say, choose to either have Maelstorm function as an AoE / DPS spec, or you could switch traits and have it function more like a CC skill.

Also, thanks for uploading the elementalist  video. It was nice to see a different play style with what's likely to be my first class. Looks like he passed up damage in favor of mass-CC and utility.

The only thing that really bugs me about the way Anet chose to handle skill customization, is that it makes it nearly impossible to play weapons I like cosmetically. For instance, I hate the look of a warrior running around w/ a giant hammer. I'd rather have either a greatsword or sword & board. However, that doesn't always fit my playstyle. It sucks, but it's not a deal breaker for me. The system is too much fun to pass up.

  ComfyChair

Novice Member

Joined: 7/22/10
Posts: 766

2/15/12 11:15:48 PM#28

Let me guess: no-one has even mentioned traits yet?

 

Traits modify the skills available and can drastically alter the effects. Customisation is not just skill based any more, it's trait based too (not to mention you can take different weapon sets into battle).

 

I don't really see any issue with having a set 5 skills for the weapon set.

  Homitu

Novice Member

Joined: 10/01/09
Posts: 2045

2/16/12 11:10:16 AM#29
Originally posted by Master10K
Originally posted by Homitu

[...]

I only worry that some ability slots will be too homogenized that they will all feel very similar, or conversely, that there will be variety, but one ability will almost always be universally chosen over all others.  For example, every single class's utility skill thus far appears to be a basic 40-60% self heal.  The only slight varation I've seen was the Necro's blood fiend, which attacks while it is alive, but is then sacrificed for the same 40-60% heal.  I hope there are some different utility abilities that players will want or need to take in some circumstances, things like shields, resistances, or aoe movement speed buffs.  It's hard to imagine sacrificing your only source of sustainability for any of those though...

Seems to me like you simply just don't understand the mechanics in the game. I mean there's a huge difference between summoning a Blood Fiend that can be killed by a foe, leaving you at a disadvantage, to another self-heal that is more effective when you have conditions stacked on yourself and will wipe those conditions clean. Like when I make my Elementalist for PvP, I will definitely choose "Signet of Restoration" over "Glyph of Elemental Harmony", because it suits my playstyle. ArenaNet have put in a lot of thought into their skill and skill placement, which is why they've still been changing things around recently.

 [...]

Those skills fill your other 3 support slots, not your heal button (6).  I spoke incorrectly when I broadly said "utility" skills.  I was only referring to the #6 slot skill.  And I mentioned the Blood Fiend precisely because it was somewhat different than the other classes', especially since it's cooldown seemed to be initiated when the BF is first cast.  Thus, you could risk keeping it alive until the CD is reset again, then sacrifice it, spawn it again, and sac it once more for a full heal.  Of course, it will (or should) be an immediate target in PvP. 

  niceguy3978

Elite Member

Joined: 6/14/06
Posts: 2016

2/16/12 11:17:28 AM#30
Originally posted by Sylvarii

Intersting vid about GW1 and GW2 Skills..

http://www.guildwarsinsider.com/guild-wars-2-skill-choice/

The restriction on the number of skills you could have usable at one time was the reason I could never get far in GW1.  I just couldn't get use to it.  I tried several times and it just annoyed me.  I know there are choices to make on which skills to use/equip/however you want to word it, but I don't really like being forced to choose how to limit myself.  Everything about GW2 seems really cool, except it has the same flaw that I couldn't get past in the first one.

  Findariel

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/20/05
Posts: 216

2/18/12 7:54:10 AM#31
Originally posted by cali59

Lol, this is actually kind of funny now that I think about it.  In the video the guy just throws out there that "99%" of GW1's builds were bad.

In an earlier thread I computed that for one dual class combo in GW1, with 1 elite and 7 nonelite, you'd have approximately 150 trillion possible builds.  I also computed that if you include weapon traits, a warrior in GW2 has approximately 10 billion possible builds.

What this means is that if 99% of GW1's builds are bad, and ALL of GW2's builds are viable, there would still be 150x as many viable builds in GW1 than in GW2.  :)

Fortunately for GW2, the reality is that probably 99.9999999999999% of GW1 builds are bad.

.. which I refuse to believe!

The GW1 skill system was more or less derived from the Magic: The Gathering system, which was confirmed in a number of interviews with ANet. And it worked. And yes, like M:tG a lot of combinations didn't make any sense. The main problem imo was that to keep all the possible combinations balanced was really a big problem, resulting in various nerfs. I can imagine ANet wasn't particulary happy with that side-effect.

While I do agree that in a way the old system didn't really made the classes very distinctive it did made the professions very flexible. Also it made for some real good setups if you could borrow a few skills from another class because a lot of them overlapped, like hex skills for a Me/N. Also it allowed for some extreme balancing, for example mesmers weren't very popular in PvE but a fastcasting Me/E could be pretty strong. And lastly, utilties like resurrection skills were extremely useful. hence you saw a lot of /Mo setups just for that reason.

We also can't presume that any random skill setup in GW2 will be as viable and effective as the other. It remains to be seen how many best "cookie cutter" builds we'll get with the new system and how many setups will be considered subpar. Especially when doing the elite dungeons people will want the group members to have the best, most effective builds. And for the various tasks it may be that one class may have the best skill setup, for instance a Guardian will be the best group support profession and the mesmer may have the best crowd control. Without seconday professions, how much flexibility will we have to fulfill those roles just as effectively?

Originally posted by Master10K
Originally posted by Bunks

FYI, the Ranger will not be the best bow class unless you build yourself to be so. But a thief vs ranger (both melee) in PvP will be something to watch. And a thief bow setup is far from being the worst choice. This is the only game where running an alt may be a must just to know what you are up against.

I definitely agree to that, because they only way to truly understand and learn something, is to do it yourself.

But it's not unique to GW2. But yes it may increase revenue for ANet because everyone will want to get extra character slots. Provided we'll start off with just 4 like in GW1.

  Diovidius

Novice Member

Joined: 10/18/10
Posts: 1031

2/18/12 8:01:32 AM#32
Originally posted by Findariel

.. which I refuse to believe!

The GW1 skill system was more or less derived from the Magic: The Gathering system, which was confirmed in a number of interviews with ANet. And it worked. And yes, like M:tG a lot of combinations didn't make any sense. The main problem imo was that to keep all the possible combinations balanced was really a big problem, resulting in various nerfs. I can imagine ANet wasn't particulary happy with that side-effect.

While I do agree that in a way the old system didn't really made the classes very distinctive it did made the professions very flexible. Also it made for some real good setups if you could borrow a few skills from another class because a lot of them overlapped, like hex skills for a Me/N. Also it allowed for some extreme balancing, for example mesmers weren't very popular in PvE but a fastcasting Me/E could be pretty strong. And lastly, utilties like resurrection skills were extremely useful. hence you saw a lot of /Mo setups just for that reason.

We also can't presume that any random skill setup in GW2 will be as viable and effective as the other. It remains to be seen how many best "cookie cutter" builds we'll get with the new system and how many setups will be considered subpar. Especially when doing the elite dungeons people will want the group members to have the best, most effective builds. And for the various tasks it may be that one class may have the best skill setup, for instance a Guardian will be the best group support profession and the mesmer may have the best crowd control. Without seconday professions, how much flexibility will we have to fulfill those roles just as well?

Disregarding skills, GW1 was quite limited in other ways to customize your build in terms of equipment and attributes and also in how skills were used. GW2 will have more emphasis on equipment, will have more room to play around with attributes, will have traits which change the way skills function and will have weapon sets which give you more choices. Last but not least, GW2 will have more room for playstyle customization in addition to the above mentioned build customization, with a bigger focus on timing, positioning, dodging, movement etc. I am not worried.

  Cod_Eye

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/04/09
Posts: 1028

2/18/12 8:01:41 AM#33

If I remember correctly, in an interview with one of the developers they had said that GW had far to many skills and that it got out of control (or words to that effect) and that GW2 skills wont be so generous .  Cant remember exact wording or able to find the interview without listening to everyone that was released.  But basicly there was to many skills in GW and that wont happen in GW2.

  mazut

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/23/08
Posts: 839

2/18/12 8:58:47 AM#34
Originally posted by Diovidius
Originally posted by Findariel
...

Disregarding skills, GW1 was quite limited in other ways to customize your build in terms of equipment and attributes and also in how skills were used. GW2 will have more emphasis on equipment, will have more room to play around with attributes, will have traits which change the way skills function and will have weapon sets which give you more choices. Last but not least, GW2 will have more room for playstyle customization in addition to the above mentioned build customization, with a bigger focus on timing, positioning, dodging, movement etc. I am not worried.

I disagree on atributes. in gw2 the last known there are 4. You either go with more hp or more thoughness and more damage or critical. This is one of the few things I dont like.

Thaits are welcome, but we still dont know howmuch impact really they have and will they change the skills or just upgrde stats.

  Diovidius

Novice Member

Joined: 10/18/10
Posts: 1031

2/18/12 9:02:57 AM#35
Originally posted by mazut
Originally posted by Diovidius
Originally posted by Findariel
...

Disregarding skills, GW1 was quite limited in other ways to customize your build in terms of equipment and attributes and also in how skills were used. GW2 will have more emphasis on equipment, will have more room to play around with attributes, will have traits which change the way skills function and will have weapon sets which give you more choices. Last but not least, GW2 will have more room for playstyle customization in addition to the above mentioned build customization, with a bigger focus on timing, positioning, dodging, movement etc. I am not worried.

I disagree on atributes. in gw2 the last known there are 4. You either go with more hp or more thoughness and more damage or critical. This is one of the few things I dont like.

Thaits are welcome, but we still dont know howmuch impact really they have and will they change the skills or just upgrde stats.

I was comparing GW2's attributes to GW1's attributes. Attributes in GW1 showed very little variation across builds.

Well, we've known about trait which change more than just stats such as turning a melee skill into a ranged skill however that was before the trait revamp (about which we do not know anything) and of course it remains to be seen how many traits do this.

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