Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by Cursedsei

Originally posted by Vesavius
 

None of which makes your point any more true.

Yes, I am just another opinion in amongst many, where did I say I didn't consider myself that.

My opinion is that, in this instance, that you have chosen to comment personally on me because you have no point to make about the contents of my opinion that proves it's anything else but right. 

I suspect you have also chosen to attack me because you prefer buy your game rewards in cash shops rather then playing for for them and my suggesting that makes you less of a gamer struck a raw nerve.

 

No, the only reason I've "personally attacked"  you as you put it, is because of that comment of yours. Just because someone prefers one type of DLC to another, you personally attack them by saying they aren't a gamer without any real reason, and added nothing of value to any discussion here. If anyone else had made such a downright stupid claim, I'd of responded similarly to them as well.

Your opinion is as valid as mine, but I also don't go around calling anyone who doesn't agree with me less of a "gamer" than my-holier-than-thou-self that I think I am. You aren't some shining paragon of the Gamer definition, you're being the trollish... /snipping and stopping reading due to your repeated personal attacks

 

Seriously fella... by all means defend and support the point that you want to make, I will read it and respond, but these insults make me just stop.

If you went on to make an actual point, I apologise, but I just have been around forums too long to be bothered with this kind of start to a reply.

I would be careful with what you are saying, because you could really start practicing what you preach, since your past few posts have also been insults towards others. If you felt I was insulting you personally, I apologize because that wasn't my intent. I didn't call you a troll though, I said you are being one at the moment, because essentially all of your posts devolve into "Lul u-pay-to-shop nogamer".

And saying "I suspect <etc etc>" doesn't change that either.

Originally posted by Xasapis

This is funny. There is one thing every and each one of us has in a finite amount and none of us knows how much. Time. What you invest your time into is more important than anything else.

There is another thing that every and each one of us has in a finite amount: money. What we spend our money on is arguably more important than what we spend our time on, at least to the majority of people.

As long as I don't have to pay to win, or pay to offset disadvantage, I am totally for microtransactions. I think the way they are doing it, via mission-packs that don't benefit my character but reveal story is pretty damn good. If I get into GW2, I'd probably by a few.

Originally posted by Cursedsei

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by Cursedsei

Originally posted by Vesavius
 

None of which makes your point any more true.

Yes, I am just another opinion in amongst many, where did I say I didn't consider myself that.

My opinion is that, in this instance, that you have chosen to comment personally on me because you have no point to make about the contents of my opinion that proves it's anything else but right. 

I suspect you have also chosen to attack me because you prefer buy your game rewards in cash shops rather then playing for for them and my suggesting that makes you less of a gamer struck a raw nerve.

 

No, the only reason I've "personally attacked"  you as you put it, is because of that comment of yours. Just because someone prefers one type of DLC to another, you personally attack them by saying they aren't a gamer without any real reason, and added nothing of value to any discussion here. If anyone else had made such a downright stupid claim, I'd of responded similarly to them as well.

Your opinion is as valid as mine, but I also don't go around calling anyone who doesn't agree with me less of a "gamer" than my-holier-than-thou-self that I think I am. You aren't some shining paragon of the Gamer definition, you're being the trollish... /snipping and stopping reading due to your repeated personal attacks

 

Seriously fella... by all means defend and support the point that you want to make, I will read it and respond, but these insults make me just stop.

If you went on to make an actual point, I apologise, but I just have been around forums too long to be bothered with this kind of start to a reply.

I would be careful with what you are saying /snip... again because you seem to not be able to get beyond squabbling.

If you want to discuss the point I am making, that shopping in cash malls is not gaming, buying your in game rewards makes you a poor gamer, and that cash shops and being able to buy in game rewards destroys the very fundamentals of what makes a game a game, then please do so and I will listen.

Every time you go for the personal off topic attack though I will snip you and stop.

No matter how fair they make it, some people will always complain about the cash shop, they just want everything for just the box price.

Originally posted by xKingdomx

No matter how fair they make it, some people will always complain about the cash shop, they just want everything for just the box price.

Not true.

I want to pay a box price and then pay for extra playable DLC or expacks (which really are the same thing, they just differ in terms of scale).

I am also pretty open to a sub if value is delivered.

I complain about a cash shop because I believe all content should accessable through play, don't believe in character development in a game that bypasses playing the playing actual game, and believe that selling in game rewards has a profound effect on the nature of the gameand it's design.

A 'fair' cash shop, to me, is one that delivers meaningful content in terms of extra play, not shiny hats designed in the tea break and sold at $15 of pure profit.

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by xKingdomx

No matter how fair they make it, some people will always complain about the cash shop, they just want everything for just the box price.

 

Not true.

I want to pay a box price and then pay for extra playable DLC or expacks (which really are the same thing, they just differ in terms of scale).

I am also pretty open to a sub if value is delivered.

I complain about a cash shop because I believe all content should accessable through play, don't believe in character development in a game that bypasses playing the playing actual game, and believe that selling in game rewards has a profound effect on the nature of the gameand it's design.

A 'fair' cash shop, to me, is one that delivers meaningful content in terms of extra play, not shiny hats designed in the tea break and sold at $15 of pure profit.

It seems what you want isn t going to happen. I can guarentee there will be outfits etc. Which I said before who the hell cares if someone wears a stupid heart shaped hat, and wants to pay for it. It doesn t effect me any. I think you should pass on this game and many many many more coming, because thats what is the future of MMOs. It s  just some extra income for them, and if people want to pay for my future content to look different then me, with no stat gains, I say let them.

Originally posted by Leucent

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by xKingdomx

No matter how fair they make it, some people will always complain about the cash shop, they just want everything for just the box price.

 

Not true.

I want to pay a box price and then pay for extra playable DLC or expacks (which really are the same thing, they just differ in terms of scale).

I am also pretty open to a sub if value is delivered.

I complain about a cash shop because I believe all content should accessable through play, don't believe in character development in a game that bypasses playing the playing actual game, and believe that selling in game rewards has a profound effect on the nature of the gameand it's design.

A 'fair' cash shop, to me, is one that delivers meaningful content in terms of extra play, not shiny hats designed in the tea break and sold at $15 of pure profit.

It seems what you want isn t going to happen. I can guarentee there will be outfits etc. Which I said before who the hell cares if someone wears a stupid heart shaped hat, and wants to pay for it. It doesn t effect me any. I think you should pass on this game and many many many more coming, because thats what is the future of MMOs. It s  just some extra income for them, and if people want to pay for my future content to look different then me, with no stat gains, I say let them.

Because as I have said before, selling in game rewards fundamentally changes the nature of the game (moving it ever closer to not being a 'game' at all but an 'entertainment product' where game design takes second place to ensuring the widest possible customer base exists, usually primarily by removing challenge and complexity, but going against the definition of make a 'game' in other profound ways as well).

And that applies to everyone, not just the guy buying the hat.

To understand why selling in game rewards is a bad thing you have to stand back to look at the wider picture. The mistake the majority are making is to look at the issue in the short term and from a very limited personal place ('if it dosen't seem to be hurting me directly right now then let it happen')

But yes, I do understand that my view is not the one that is held by the majority and that the industry sponsered promotion of cash shop 'play' has moved us into a place where what I want is never going to happen, but all I can say is that I see it as I see it.

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by Leucent

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by xKingdomx

No matter how fair they make it, some people will always complain about the cash shop, they just want everything for just the box price.

 

Not true.

I want to pay a box price and then pay for extra playable DLC or expacks (which really are the same thing, they just differ in terms of scale).

I am also pretty open to a sub if value is delivered.

I complain about a cash shop because I believe all content should accessable through play, don't believe in character development in a game that bypasses playing the playing actual game, and believe that selling in game rewards has a profound effect on the nature of the gameand it's design.

A 'fair' cash shop, to me, is one that delivers meaningful content in terms of extra play, not shiny hats designed in the tea break and sold at $15 of pure profit.

It seems what you want isn t going to happen. I can guarentee there will be outfits etc. Which I said before who the hell cares if someone wears a stupid heart shaped hat, and wants to pay for it. It doesn t effect me any. I think you should pass on this game and many many many more coming, because thats what is the future of MMOs. It s  just some extra income for them, and if people want to pay for my future content to look different then me, with no stat gains, I say let them.

 

Because as I have said before, selling in game rewards fundamentally changes the nature of the game (moving it ever closer to not being a 'game' at all but an 'entertainment product' where game design takes second place to ensuring the widest possible customer base exists, usually primarily by removing challenge and complexity, but going against the definition of make a 'game' in other profound ways as well).

And that applies to everyone, not just the guy buying the hat.

To understand why selling in game rewards is a bad thing you have to stand back to look at the wider picture. The mistake the majority are making is to look at the issue in the short term and from a very limited personal place ('if it dosen't seem to be hurting me directly right now then let it happen')

But yes, I do understand that my view is not the one that is held by the majority and that the industry sponsered promotion of cash shop 'play' has moved us into a place where what I want is never going to happen, but all I can say is that I see it as I see it.

 

Wait when did you ever think that games were more than an entertainment product? Thats like saying holywood movies are about artist expression.  The only real question is how the money making scheme of the game impacts your love of playing it.  I have not liked DLC in the past specificaly because often it means you to pay to get a mission that you can grind to get better raid gear which in my mind is the worst of all ways. If GW2 does it just for plot then i don't really care.  But on the other hand why do you care if people are willing to pay to get things that make them happy and dont effect you, i.e. a heart shaped hat.

its not like they are paying for raid gear and there by making it harder for you who doesn't pay to get by.  I assume GW will do both DLC and Cosmetic, difference no matter how they cosmetic it won't effect anyone elses place in the game.  If the mess up DLC it could be a buy your own gear system.  It really doesn't matter if they have to run the mission after they buy it to get the gear its still something with tangible effects in game that you cannot get without paying.  Not to mention, while i am sure it will be harder in GW2 to do high level content than in the cookie cutter MMO's but it still won't be very hard, so buying a mission from which you get gear will be no different than buying gear.

Let me see if I'm understanding this correctly.

Some people who are complaining about MTs think that games that have them is reminiscent somehow of "play to win" (how in the world that is escapes me), or they complain because of mission packs being purchasable (something I would do if it simply is bonus and not necessary). If anything is clear it's this: you are NOT going to please all the people. Someone will always have something to complain about.

Here's what I don't understand and just correct me if I'm wrong here. But if you don't want to buy anything from the shop, what in the world will just having it there do to your game experience? If you are not in a financial position to buy anything, don't. If you enjoy the game regardless then enjoy the game. But if your enjoyment is tied to what someone else has or doesn't have, then that's a bigger problem than just the game.

I currently play an NCSoft game where it has both a sub fee and a shop. I hardly ever go to that shop because I pay the sub and get everything that I want to enjoy the game. There is no "pay to win" as I'm not competing with anyone. In the long run, it's cheaper just to pay the sub fee. Even if I wasn't a subscriber, I still could play the game with plenty of content. The things that they offer in the shop are for those who don't pay the sub fee and for cosmetic things which I simply never have been a fan on a large scale. There's plenty of that already in the game and it just doesn't interest me that much.

Creating and developing a game is a business. The primary goal of a business is to make money. When it makes money, it can develop more content, fix bugs, and build a better game overall. If a gaming company is not making money, it ceases to exist and so does the game. If I like a game, I want it to stay around and I don't have problems paying them to do so. Ultimately, I'm the boss. 

It seems that a lot of these complaints are based around having a problem of paying anything. Just to reiterate, no one makes a game for free that's worth playing for any length of time. They have to make money somehow. People have to eat and bills need to get paid. Some business models are better than others. Some are just downright horrible. But it all goes back to the ultimate purpose of a business which is to make money. Until you have the consummate experience to build and run a successful game that's been around for years, I caution to pause a moment before complaining about having to pay something. Otherwise, you may wake up and find that those games you secretly enjoyed but trashed on forums like this will be gone. Then you may wonder if paying $5, $10, or $15 a month was worth keeping it.

If I payed $60 bucks for a game, then everything in the game shoul be available to me. Now If you want to add something extra that doesnt alter the gameplay(giving others advantages over me) then have at it. The pay to win style is not ok with me. But if you want cool looking armor or a pink tutu and pay for it, be my guest.

Originally posted by Bunks

If I payed $60 bucks for a game, then everything in the game shoul be available to me. Now If you want to add something extra that doesnt alter the gameplay(giving others advantages over me) then have at it. The pay to win style is not ok with me. But if you want cool looking armor or a pink tutu and pay for it, be my guest.

If they follow what they do with GW. I think the MT is not a big deal.

https://secure.ncsoft.com/cgi-bin/Store.pl?dnv=4829112648&action=toggleCategory&category=4#featured

Originally posted by Bunks

If I payed $60 bucks for a game, then everything in the game shoul be available to me. Now If you want to add something extra that doesnt alter the gameplay(giving others advantages over me) then have at it. The pay to win style is not ok with me. But if you want cool looking armor or a pink tutu and pay for it, be my guest.

 

This is what I'm talking about in terms of caring what someone else has in order to play and enjoy the game.

The game you paid $60 for is there and you can play all the way through it. MT material is either cosmetic or was not originally a part of the game you paid $60 for. It's bonus material that you can normally take or leave. Complaining about what someone has or doesn't have because of some perceived advantage is simply envy. If you enjoy the game and don't want to pay any more, don't. No one has an advantage over you if you enjoy the game.

Originally posted by thebrewman

I think micro-transactions are completely fine as long as it doesn't lead to buy to win. Cosmetic gear, potions etc are great as long as it doesn't provide an edge in pve/pve.

Anything to supplement this game I am all for, I just wish it would launch already =P

im all out of cosmetics myself there is no wrong having your char looking nice and different than others i also understand people who dont giva  ***** what they are wearing blaablaa only stats matter yadayada . also knwoing this world we are currently living someone would cry when got killed in pvp cause mesmerized staring opponents shiny cape =)

Originally posted by Leucent

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Leucent

 

I completely understand, and shockingly I feel the same way, but I ignore it and could care less if people do it. It doesn t effect me in any way shape or form, I can do everything anyone who buys this shit, and didn t pay anymore. I know what you re saying, I really do, but it won t effect the games future, and won t effect it in the now either.

 

It can effect you though, when they stop putting stuff in the game and only sell it in a cash shop. I think that's what Vesavius is eluding to here. If they take away the option to have a unique look by playing and earning it from game-play, that effects everyone.

"when they stop putting stuff in the game and only sell it in a cash shop." I would say if not when. but I still feel costumes for sale in a shop, and not available in game for looks, does not effect me in the least. If they stop adding stuff to the game and only sell it in a store I ll agree, but that will never happen. Anet isn t that stupid. What I m saying is people are taking the items only in a store way too seriously, when it s just some usually stupid outfit, no one really wants. It won t effect me in the least.

There is two things I get out of Vesavius's posts:

1. Buying your way around content or selling shortcuts through content is bad for the game environment.  Selling content in a subscriptionless game is okay.  Selling shortcuts or the end result or chances at shortcuts is bad.  It defeats the whole purpose of gameplay and it is the foundation of the model that Distopia refers to: that is fun stuff in the game becomes an insanely rare possibility or huge grind to encourage those cash shop sales.

2. Store exclusive items:  Guild Wars 1 already sets the precedent for having store exclusive cosmetics.  Some of the coolest costumes in that game are store exclusive purchases.  LotRO is another RMT game where the nicest mounts and some of the most important power up and consumables are store exclusives.

Why should cosmetics be exempt?  The whole point of characters are their growth and development whether this means powerful gear ups or cosmetics that showcase accopmlishments or events?  As gamers, we've made the mistake of sending the signal that it's okay to sell cosmetic accomplishments and upgrades in a store because it doesn't make us more powerful in pvp/pve.  This is a lie.  It's all character progression and anyone that can buy their way around that has the advantage over the person who takes the long route and actually plays the game.

Finally, it comes down to micro-gouging.  It's much eaiser to cover nickel and dime fees in the total cost of gameplay.  It is so easy to spend a ton more than a standard subscription if you want the full game.  Sure you can play for less if you are willing to accept a mediocre "less than" experience.  Why play at all then?

Originally posted by Torvaldr

 As gamers, we've made the mistake of sending the signal that it's okay to sell cosmetic accomplishments and upgrades in a store because it doesn't make us more powerful in pvp/pve.  This is a lie.  It's all character progression and anyone that can buy their way around that has the advantage over the person who takes the long route and actually plays the game.

Finally, it comes down to micro-gouging.  It's much eaiser to cover nickel and dime fees in the total cost of gameplay.  It is so easy to spend a ton more than a standard subscription if you want the full game.  Sure you can play for less if you are willing to accept a mediocre "less than" experience.  Why play at all then?

 

I don't agree with this in the least.

First, just because someone wants to pay to get a costume or content that has no real advantage over anyone else in any way is fine. What we're saying is that we like having a choice. If someone wants to pay or take the long route, the fact is that it's their choice to do so. In the end they both get the same thing so it makes absolutely no difference. Don't hate because they didn't get there EXACTLY like you did because they exercised their right to choose.

Second, your character is not progressing in any quantifiable way so to say that buying these things is character progression is not understanding the term. It's character development and that is optional because some people don't develop their characters. They just progress them (i.e. level, get better gear, etc.). They are not the same thing.

Third, no one is forcing you to pay anything for the game or anything in the game. If it's not necessary to buy but optional, then, again, you have a choice on what to do with the money that is yours. If you spend money unwisely, that is not the fault of the game developers. They simply give you an option. Making bad choices about money spending is on you.

Again, it's about game enjoyment. I enjoy a game for different reasons than others and I play certain games for that reason. What someone else is wearing or what adventure they went through is of no consequence to me. If I think I will enjoy the game more by having these things, I may purchase them. But it's in no way a deal breaker for me. I play for me, not for someone else.

God I hope they don't do that crap like in Forsaken World where you get shafted with a small inventory then you have to buy inventory upgrades and bank upgrades just so you can hold enough items to get by... That sucked...