Originally posted by sanosukex

Originally posted by BarCrow

Accuracy and opinions are exclusive. They're opinions. They don't have to be accurate.  I can say 2+2=7 in my opinion. It is neither innaccurate nor accurate. It is an opinion. Now..your opinion may be I'm full of shit. That is also neither fact nor fiction.  Just another opinion. You may question the mathematical elements of my opinion but again..the opinion itself...as a whole...is neither right nor wrong just because someone agrees or disagrees with said opinion. All this is , as you may have already guessed, my opinion.

2+2=7 is not an opinion since the answer is a known fact and if you think that qualifies as a good argument on opinions and facts.. i dunno what to say about that... it's like saying it's my opinion the earth is flat... that's not an opinion that's just being a moron 

 

swtor is heavily instanced/phased... fact

swtor has linear planet design and questing.... fact

swtor gives only a couple of actual skills though talents..... fact

swtor is your basic tab target MMO combat minus autoattack... fact

swtor does not have 200 hours of unique content per class.... fact

swtor dialogue choices do not have major impacts in your overall story and the world around.... fact

 

 

 

Those are facts according to you. Some i may agree or disagree with in varying degress. I like SWTOR despite your "facts"...Just like the math in my example "opinion" was factually inaccurate.....the facts in your statement have nothing to do with opinion except in forming your own opinion based on your own bias or perceptions of experience. They are even subconsciously  influenced by past likes/dislikes or bias.. Like i was implying....anything can be an opinion ...even the blatantly false or mathematically disproven. Facts have nothing to do with it. Its merely what someone believes no matter how insubstantiated it may seem to someone else.

Originally posted by BarCrow

Originally posted by sanosukex

Originally posted by BarCrow

Accuracy and opinions are exclusive. They're opinions. They don't have to be accurate.  I can say 2+2=7 in my opinion. It is neither innaccurate nor accurate. It is an opinion. Now..your opinion may be I'm full of shit. That is also neither fact nor fiction.  Just another opinion. You may question the mathematical elements of my opinion but again..the opinion itself...as a whole...is neither right nor wrong just because someone agrees or disagrees with said opinion. All this is , as you may have already guessed, my opinion.

2+2=7 is not an opinion since the answer is a known fact and if you think that qualifies as a good argument on opinions and facts.. i dunno what to say about that... it's like saying it's my opinion the earth is flat... that's not an opinion that's just being a moron 

 

swtor is heavily instanced/phased... fact

swtor has linear planet design and questing.... fact

swtor gives only a couple of actual skills though talents..... fact

swtor is your basic tab target MMO combat minus autoattack... fact

swtor does not have 200 hours of unique content per class.... fact

swtor dialogue choices do not have major impacts in your overall story and the world around.... fact

 

 

 

Those are facts according to you. Some i may agree or disagree with in varying degress. I like SWTOR despite your "facts"...Just like the math in my example "opinion" was factually inaccurate.....the facts in your statement have nothing to do with opinion except in forming your own opinion based on your own bias or perceptions of experience. They are even subconsciously  influenced by past likes/dislikes or bias.. Like i was implying....anything can be an opinion ...even the blatantly false or mathematically disproven. Facts have nothing to do with it. Its merely what someone believes no matter how insubstantiated it may seem to someone else.

in your logic nothing is fact then if EVERYTHING can be seen as an opinion.. 

How about we end the debate of facts by showing videos lol

Originally posted by RizelStar

How about we end the debate of facts by showing videos lol

won't matter either way.. i could go to peoples house and staple it to their forhead but some people seem to really love this game unconditionally.. wish I could but my brain doesn't seem to allow me to..

I still say SW:Tor is a safe haven for carebears... And its still frustrating we cant get to them...

Fact Bioware protects carebears in SWTOR from greifing, you cant delevlel them or kill them and Loot all of their gear.. leaving them naked on the ground,

Fact Bioware protects carebears from Scaming. You cant trick and fool people into sending you ingame money, and promise to send dubble the amount back.. but just keeping the money yourself...

Fact Biowar protects carebaers from perma death. You cant kill off peopes Charecters and force them to start over...

Fact Bioware protects carebears from Ninja looting. You get drops randomly how lame is that

Fact Bioware makes use of BOP and BOE. To protect against making any decent IRL cash selling stuff to lazy carebears outside the game..

Fact Bioware is protecting carebears from rage quitting in tears and unsubbing to the game Because of prevoiusly stated facts, how lame is that

All in all Bioware are the carebears champion and they have made a safe haven for them to hang out in.. and we cant get our dirty paws on them..

Originally posted by eddieg50

     Swtor than came into my life, like a sweet breeze blowing through your hair on a hot day, It was filled with great star wars story , cut scenes, voice overs , a similar but better combat system than Wow.  This game brought Suspense back to me, there was political intrigue, betrayal,friendships made and broken.

     

Ummm...I am confused, what in the world could possibly cause Suspense in SWTOR?

Political Intreague? Over what?

Betrayal and friendships being broken? Why? because someone pressed need instead of greed?

Your comparing the Interaction of something like Shadowbane, the Sandbox Interaction it had due to Housing and Territorial Conquest...with SW:TOR, that features none of that, and is but a themepark so you can do your quests and play in the battlegrounds for points and gear?

I am confused.

 

Originally posted by Suraknar

Betrayal and friendships being broken? Why? because someone pressed need instead of greed?

that made me smile - thank you )

Originally posted by sanosukex

Originally posted by RizelStar

How about we end the debate of facts by showing videos lol

won't matter either way.. i could go to peoples house and staple it to their forhead but some people seem to really love this game unconditionally.. wish I could but my brain doesn't seem to allow me to..

Let time take it's course, it's sort of funny though each week someone who was a huge supporter would post a "I unsub.." and the reasons are the same.

 

Part of the reason in every post has the word linear in it.

Originally posted by eddieg50

The first mmo i ever played was Ever quest, I thought it was an interesting and fascinating idea and looked like alot of fun but I could not really play it on my Pentium pro, I than tried UO and could not fall in love with its top down, skills progression system, then came Shadowbane, no quests (which took me time to get used to) but a great grouping game with incredible suspense, you could even build your own city, The bugs though were freaky-you could shoot at people half a world away and hit them LOL and the game much to my regret faded into oblivion.

     I started playing vanilla wow and enjoyed its quests and challenging combat, it was the perfect game for a casual semi hc player like myself, but i could not stick with it as it lacked the suspense of Shadowbane, I then Beta tested Vanguard and thought "what a charming game but you need a monster computer to run it, we told dev to make sure they optimized it but alas they did not and lost most of their pop and the game has not recovered.

     I played other mmo's Eve, Eq2, lotro (it almost had me hooked with its beautiful graphics and sound and great story line) Fe, darkfall, etc and then I  met AOC and it enthralled me with its neat combo system of combat and it super graphics combined with its great story, cut scenes and voice overs. Then I left Tortage and it was like someone kicked me in the stomach, no more voice overs,cut scenes I also realized that if you chose a melee character you would be seriously compromised in PvP, they had huge walls of text to make up for the lack of vo , who wanted to read that!!! and if you did stop to read you could be attacked by other players-no thanks.

     Swtor than came into my life, like a sweet breeze blowing through your hair on a hot day, It was filled with great star wars story , cut scenes, voice overs , a similar but better combat system than Wow.  This game brought Suspense back to me, there was political intrigue, betrayal,friendships made and broken.  I found myself grouping and i rarely group in games and darn I WAS ENJOYING IT. Social points how cool was that.  The first time I played Kotar I felt the same way, I was home and they say you can never go home again-not true. Another poster commented that it is not necessarily all the features in a game that make it fun , but it is that one or two or three features that you can grab onto that lead the way.

     The last couple of weeks I have tried other Mmo's and it was not the same , the wall of text was a wall to continuation for me, the combat blah, the story non existent (except in lotro) where are the vo/cut scenes that bring my game to life and provide me with immersion so I feel like I am in the game, where is the intrigue, the fun and funny companions, the story, story , story, where is it? No where my friend and that is why SWTOR has ruined me for other MMO's. Yes for the first time in my life I am not playing an mmo for one or two months and than switching to another.  There is no place like Home.

     

great read but the place you should post this is on the SWTOR forums. this forum will blast you as you have already seen i'm sure. but i agree this game has sucked me in like a black hole. it's amazing! and yes before i get blasted as well YES there is some basic features missing. BUT all of you who blast this game expected too much i EXPECTED very little even in alpha phase so when the game released i was VERY happy.

moral of the story put it on the SWTOR forums or risk getting blasted by these 1337 mofos lol

Originally posted by snoop101

Originally posted by eddieg50

 

 Yes for the first time in my life I am not playing an mmo for one or two months and than switching to another.  There is no place like Home.

     

 

The game hasent even been out for two months.

What he said...

 

TRUST ME - I felt this way for the first 2 weeks playing SWTOR. It was SOOOOO good. I was in love. It was great, and the musics was fantastic.

 

BUT - the honeymoon is over.

 

The statement quoted above is hilarious given the game hasn't even been out 2 months yet.

 

Make a statment like that in 6 months, and we can take is seriously.

Originally posted by Zlayer77

I still say SW:Tor is a safe haven for carebears... And its still frustrating we cant get to them...

Fact Bioware protects carebears in SWTOR from greifing, you cant delevlel them or kill them and Loot all of their gear.. leaving them naked on the ground,

Fact Bioware protects carebears from Scaming. You cant trick and fool people into sending you ingame money, and promise to send dubble the amount back.. but just keeping the money yourself...

Fact Biowar protects carebaers from perma death. You cant kill off peopes Charecters and force them to start over...

Fact Bioware protects carebears from Ninja looting. You get drops randomly how lame is that

Fact Bioware makes use of BOP and BOE. To protect against making any decent IRL cash selling stuff to lazy carebears outside the game..

Fact Bioware is protecting carebears from rage quitting in tears and unsubbing to the game Because of prevoiusly stated facts, how lame is that

All in all Bioware are the carebears champion and they have made a safe haven for them to hang out in.. and we cant get our dirty paws on them..

 

Wow. Just wow.

I guess if you are looking forthat type of game, there are plenty out there.

Your issue is that you can't make someones life miserable who doesn't want to play that type of game? Seriously?

Here is what you need to realize. The "carebear" as you call them, is not interested in permadeath, or griefing, or scams.

They aren't going to play that type of game. They were already out of your reach. They aren't going to play Darkfall or some perma death game.

They don't want to be scammed and griefed and de-leveled.

Even if the only mmo was a perma death free for all full loot PvP game, they still wouldn't be there. The vast majority of them wouldn't play MMOs at all.

Ever wonder why a game like that has a small fraction of the population of SWTOR or WoW? Because mos people don't enjoy being crapped on by jerks all the time. It's not fun.

Your complaint that you can't ruin their gameplay experience is silly, because those people don't enjoy that gameplay experience.

There are people that enjoy a game like that. They are out there playing those games. You guys can go poop all over each other all day long.

This game isn't a safe haven from abusive griefers, it is simply that the majority of players don't enjoy the whole hardcore griefing style of game.

You are in the minority in this regard, but that doesn't change the fact that that style of game is available for you to play. Don't hate on the majority of people who want nothing to do with your style of game.

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Originally posted by Sylvarii

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Originally posted by dubyahite
I love this place. Person posts how much he likes a game, line up 15 people to argue with him and tell him how he's wrong for liking it.

@OP glad to hear you are liking the game.

---

I love this place as well.Person posts how much they dislike the game,line up 15 people to argue with him and tell him how he's wrong for disliking  it.
I see a pattern formning here.

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I see what you did there... but it's wrong.  Not only is it inaccurate in this case, it almost never happens when compared to the other way.  Not to mention that's ignoring the fact that this is the SWTOR forums and not the Review forum or Anti-SWTOR forum.

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Originally posted by sanosukex

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Originally posted by jpnz

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Originally posted by sanosukex

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Originally posted by BarCrow

Accuracy and opinions are exclusive. They're opinions. They don't have to be accurate. I can say 2+2=7 in my opinion. It is neither innaccurate nor accurate. It is an opinion. Now..your opinion may be I'm full of shit. That is also neither fact nor fiction. Just another opinion. You may question the mathematical elements of my opinion but again..the opinion itself...as a whole...is neither right nor wrong just because someone agrees or disagrees with said opinion. All this is , as you may have already guessed, my opinion.

---

2+2=7 is not an opinion since the answer is a known fact and if you think that qualifies as a good argument on opinions and facts.. i dunno what to say about that... it's like saying it's my opinion the earth is flat... that's not an opinion that's just being a moron

swtor is heavily instanced/phased... fact
swtor has a linear planet design and questing.... fact
swtor gives only a couple of actual skills though talents..... fact
swtor is your basic tab target MMO combat minus autoattack... fact
swtor does not have 200 hours of unique content per class.... fact
swtor dialogue choices do not have major impacts in your overall story and the world around.... fact

---

For someone to say 'fact' a lot; the examples you provided surely aren't.
A factual statement tends to shy away from subjective words like 'heavily', 'very linear', 'very limited' etc
Oh, it is 'very very limited number'? What number is that exactly?
The irony of you spouting your opinions as fact while you are berating another for the exact same reason is not lost on anyone.

---

explain how anything I listed is not a fact.. having played this game unless my eyes lie to me and I see things in a universe that is not ours please enlighten me.. you get 2-3 freaking skills from talents trees..

ok fixed my other post got rid of the "verys"

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@jpnz
I agree with you and feel you hit the nail on the head. While I agree with a few of sano's points, they're mostly opinions, while a few of them aren't anywhere close to facts and definitely subjective.

@sanosukex
burden of proof
You made the claims, he disagrees. As the one making the claim in question the burden of proof falls on you, not on him to disprove you.

Originally posted by Cavod

 

Originally posted by sanosukex

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Originally posted by jpnz

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Originally posted by sanosukex

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Originally posted by BarCrow

Accuracy and opinions are exclusive. They're opinions. They don't have to be accurate. I can say 2+2=7 in my opinion. It is neither innaccurate nor accurate. It is an opinion. Now..your opinion may be I'm full of shit. That is also neither fact nor fiction. Just another opinion. You may question the mathematical elements of my opinion but again..the opinion itself...as a whole...is neither right nor wrong just because someone agrees or disagrees with said opinion. All this is , as you may have already guessed, my opinion.

---

2+2=7 is not an opinion since the answer is a known fact and if you think that qualifies as a good argument on opinions and facts.. i dunno what to say about that... it's like saying it's my opinion the earth is flat... that's not an opinion that's just being a moron

swtor is heavily instanced/phased... fact
swtor has a linear planet design and questing.... fact
swtor gives only a couple of actual skills though talents..... fact
swtor is your basic tab target MMO combat minus autoattack... fact
swtor does not have 200 hours of unique content per class.... fact
swtor dialogue choices do not have major impacts in your overall story and the world around.... fact

---

For someone to say 'fact' a lot; the examples you provided surely aren't.
A factual statement tends to shy away from subjective words like 'heavily', 'very linear', 'very limited' etc
Oh, it is 'very very limited number'? What number is that exactly?
The irony of you spouting your opinions as fact while you are berating another for the exact same reason is not lost on anyone.

---

explain how anything I listed is not a fact.. having played this game unless my eyes lie to me and I see things in a universe that is not ours please enlighten me.. you get 2-3 freaking skills from talents trees..

ok fixed my other post got rid of the "verys"

---

@jpnz
I agree with you and feel you hit the nail on the head. While I agree with a few of sano's points, they're mostly opinions, while a few of them aren't anywhere close to facts and definitely subjective.

@sanosukex
burden of proof
You made the claims, he disagrees. As the one making the claim in question the burden of proof falls on you, not on him to disprove you.

 

proof? if you played the game that's all the proof you need.. how in anyway was anything I listed an opinion.. really I'm dying to hear the argument someone can come up with to disprove what I posted as facts

so if I said the game has 57 classes and a million differn't combinations of skills you would need "proof" that that's not a fact? these things are obvious core game designs not opinions thats just how the game is.. now if I said the lack of many actuall skills in the talent trees makes the game suck now thats an opinion but doesn't change the fact the game still only gives you a couple skills via talent trees.

[mod edit]

Originally posted by dubyahite

Originally posted by Zlayer77

I still say SW:Tor is a safe haven for carebears... And its still frustrating we cant get to them...

Fact Bioware protects carebears in SWTOR from greifing, you cant delevlel them or kill them and Loot all of their gear.. leaving them naked on the ground,

Fact Bioware protects carebears from Scaming. You cant trick and fool people into sending you ingame money, and promise to send dubble the amount back.. but just keeping the money yourself...

Fact Biowar protects carebaers from perma death. You cant kill off peopes Charecters and force them to start over...

Fact Bioware protects carebears from Ninja looting. You get drops randomly how lame is that

Fact Bioware makes use of BOP and BOE. To protect against making any decent IRL cash selling stuff to lazy carebears outside the game..

Fact Bioware is protecting carebears from rage quitting in tears and unsubbing to the game Because of prevoiusly stated facts, how lame is that

All in all Bioware are the carebears champion and they have made a safe haven for them to hang out in.. and we cant get our dirty paws on them..

 

Wow. Just wow.

I guess if you are looking forthat type of game, there are plenty out there.

Your issue is that you can't make someones life miserable who doesn't want to play that type of game? Seriously?

Here is what you need to realize. The "carebear" as you call them, is not interested in permadeath, or griefing, or scams.

They aren't going to play that type of game. They were already out of your reach. They aren't going to play Darkfall or some perma death game.

They don't want to be scammed and griefed and de-leveled.

Even if the only mmo was a perma death free for all full loot PvP game, they still wouldn't be there. The vast majority of them wouldn't play MMOs at all.

Ever wonder why a game like that has a small fraction of the population of SWTOR or WoW? Because mos people don't enjoy being crapped on by jerks all the time. It's not fun.

Your complaint that you can't ruin their gameplay experience is silly, because those people don't enjoy that gameplay experience.

There are people that enjoy a game like that. They are out there playing those games. You guys can go poop all over each other all day long.

This game isn't a safe haven from abusive griefers, it is simply that the majority of players don't enjoy the whole hardcore griefing style of game.

You are in the minority in this regard, but that doesn't change the fact that that style of game is available for you to play. Don't hate on the majority of people who want nothing to do with your style of game.

I think his responses have been quite revealing. The majority aren't flocking to the type of games he likes so he hangs around forums bemoaning the fact that no one wants to play his games. The MMO world is no longer controlled by gaming elites like him and this really burns his bacon. It's been quite entertaining to say the least.

@sanosukex -

I wouldn't necessarily argue that any of those things are untrue, but to me the opinion part enters base on how important you find those things


To you, the linear planets is a negative, but many people don't mind or even enjoy linear gameplay.


The 200 hours thing is very heavily opinion based. First of all, Bioware NEVER said 200 hours of UNIQUE content. That is something you guys added into the conversation to say " see? They lied!!!!".

They said there was 200 hours of STORY BASED gameplay per class. That is true.

Again, the opinion enters into this statement based on how you weight the fact. Many people don't care. I would argue that even if the quests overlap, there is still uniqueness on each class because of the fact that the classes are all played differently with different abilities.

In my opinion, each class plays uniquely, so the experience is different. Playing a juggernaut and a sniper are very different experiences to me. They provide uniqueness built right into the class. I find that there are hundreds of hours of unique gameplay on each class because of this. You dont think this qualifies as unique gameplay differences, I do. That's the beauty of opinion.


You think the game is "heavily instanced/phased". Again, I don't agree. There are phases for the story, but they are very short usually, and are not happening all over. Maybe 15% of the quests.

As far as world sharding/instancing goes, it barely even happens at all anymore. It's pretty much not in use very often any more.

The word "heavily" makes this your opinion, not fact. I fondthe phasing/instancing to be very minimal.


Linear questing planet design:

Did you know there are ways to skip entire planets? Did you know there are multiple paths to leveling outside of questing? PvP eliminated the need to even do the side quests same with space missions.

What you say is true, the planets are linear as in they are in order, but they are skippable and the side quests can be done in different orders.

The fact that you left out how it is possible to level quicker in PvP than questing makes your "fact" incomplete. In my opinion theultiple paths make up for this.


A couple skills per talent tree is factually true. It's your opinion that this is bad. It's not my opinion that this is negative.

So you liked it because it felt like a singleplayer game? YOu might be in the wrong genre...

Originally posted by dubyahite
@sanosukex -

I wouldn't necessarily argue that any of those things are untrue, but to me the opinion part enters base on how important you find those things


To you, the linear planets is a negative, but many people don't mind or even enjoy linear gameplay.


The 200 hours thing is very heavily opinion based. First of all, Bioware NEVER said 200 hours of UNIQUE content. That is something you guys added into the conversation to say " see? They lied!!!!".

They said there was 200 hours of STORY BASED gameplay per class. That is true.

Again, the opinion enters into this statement based on how you weight the fact. Many people don't care. I would argue that even if the quests overlap, there is still uniqueness on each class because of the fact that the classes are all played differently with different abilities.

In my opinion, each class plays uniquely, so the experience is different. Playing a juggernaut and a sniper are very different experiences to me. They provide uniqueness built right into the class. I find that there are hundreds of hours of unique gameplay on each class because of this. You dont think this qualifies as unique gameplay differences, I do. That's the beauty of opinion.


You think the game is "heavily instanced/phased". Again, I don't agree. There are phases for the story, but they are very short usually, and are not happening all over. Maybe 15% of the quests.

As far as world sharding/instancing goes, it barely even happens at all anymore. It's pretty much not in use very often any more.

The word "heavily" makes this your opinion, not fact. I fondthe phasing/instancing to be very minimal.


Linear questing planet design:

Did you know there are ways to skip entire planets? Did you know there are multiple paths to leveling outside of questing? PvP eliminated the need to even do the side quests same with space missions.

What you say is true, the planets are linear as in they are in order, but they are skippable and the side quests can be done in different orders.

The fact that you left out how it is possible to level quicker in PvP than questing makes your "fact" incomplete. In my opinion theultiple paths make up for this.


A couple skills per talent tree is factually true. It's your opinion that this is bad. It's not my opinion that this is negative.

 

never said anywhere any of my facts were good or bad It's just how the game is.. now you say the game isn't "heavily" instanced.. how many green or red doors do you see around? how many times do you need to go through a loading screen to get from planet to planet good or bad there's a lot if instancing in this game. If the "phasing" is becoming more and more non-existant than the population must be REALLY dropping..

also here http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/06/29/ea-200-hours-of-gameplay-per-class-in-swtor/

says  200 hours of core gameplay per class

now I guess you could argue whats core gameplay mean? to me it would mean unqiue to the class but guess that's good old EA putting a spin on words once again

I don't even want to get into PVP it's not worth arguing about..

 

 

 

Ok well I guess your opinions are valid andine aren't then? Typical view for the closed minded people around here.

My opinion is that the things you mentioned dot matter much to me. You think it makes the game the worst game ever.

I love the PvP. When they said core gameplay they were talking about the questing content and not including side stuff like crafting, roleplaying, multiple flashpoint runs, auctioning, etc.

Originally posted by dubyahite
Ok well I guess your opinions are valid andine aren't then? Typical view for the closed minded people around here.

My opinion is that the things you mentioned dot matter much to me. You think it makes the game the worst game ever.

I love the PvP. When they said core gameplay they were talking about the questing content and not including side stuff like crafting, roleplaying, multiple flashpoint runs, auctioning, etc.

that's not the point.. just because these things don't bother you doesn't mean they arent there... that's my problem with a lot of  people here who defend this game to no end.. its fine if you don't mind the issues other have but to say they don't exists is silly to me..  to say you can't walk all over areas and see instanced doors for other classes main story or having to go through several instances to get from ship to planet and back is just straight up lying.. maybe you don't notice these things as much and like I said maybe they don't bother you but it doesn't make them not true or not there...just because I hate the fact so many mobs in the game are just placed in sets of 3 all over the place and don't move at all,  and it doesn't bother you doesn't make it not true. Just because they re-use the same model for npcs in zones over and over and you don't mind it doesn't change the fact the clones are everywhere...  and where did I ever say its the worst game ever? once again people putting words in my mouth on these forums.. I have said it's most dissapointing game I ever played that I had been waiting for but never said worst game ever, not even close..