That isn't EVE. Honestly, what you do in EVE isnt really crafting. I played it from 2004-2009 and should know.

Preferably with good character customization/development. Hell I might even settle for good character development and endgame crafting without the PVP, if that made any logical sense at all. 

I've heard "good" things about aion, but I also hear it is moribund.

Thanks for all replies.

eve is the king of crafting mmos, otherwise its a boring ass auto attack spreadsheet.

honestly in eve everything is crafted, at least the best in slot stuff, the random found drops are either to learn to craft, to use in craft, or slightly worse then best in slot items.

aions crafting is a joke, you can spend a month/entire servers resources trying to make a crit item, and still not make it.

any game that has best in slot crafting, that isnt eve, has it a bitch to get the mats and the skill and the recipe to make said item, because otherwise everyone would be crafting the items.

there hasnt been a proper good pvp game since daoc, dont know why they dont remake it with better animations and graphics already (3 sided pvp over territory and stuff) for the new generation of gamers.

What is BiS crafting?  A Tale in the Desert is the best crafting game on the market, but somehow I don't think it's what you're after.

An interesting endgame is an oxymoron.  If something is interesting, then it axiomatically isn't part of the endgame.

You'll have to explain what you mean by "difficult", as most MMORPGs don't have a coherent notion of difficulty.  Level and gear checks to see if you're strong enough to proceed isn't really easy or hard in any coherent sense.

And what sort of PVP do you want?  Different people have radically different ideas of what makes PVP "good".

Originally posted by Rabelais

That isn't EVE. Honestly, what you do in EVE isnt really crafting. I played it from 2004-2009 and should know.

 

Preferably with good character customization/development. Hell I might even settle for good character development and endgame crafting without the PVP, if that made any logical sense at all. 

 

I've heard "good" things about aion, but I also hear it is moribund.

 

Thanks for all replies.

You might like Achaea (http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/722/Achaea.html).

Deep character customization, weapon and armour crafting (if you're one of the Knight classes, there are 3 different types).

At level 99 you can transform into a Dragon. You can also take part in city and guild politics and hold elections. There is also player housing and a player driven economy.

Originally posted by Quizzical

What is BiS crafting?  A Tale in the Desert is the best crafting game on the market, but somehow I don't think it's what you're after.

An interesting endgame is an oxymoron.  If something is interesting, then it axiomatically isn't part of the endgame.

You'll have to explain what you mean by "difficult", as most MMORPGs don't have a coherent notion of difficulty.  Level and gear checks to see if you're strong enough to proceed isn't really easy or hard in any coherent sense.

And what sort of PVP do you want?  Different people have radically different ideas of what makes PVP "good".

Hi. Sorry for the Jargon. BiS= Best in Slot, by which I was attempting to convey that crafting should be valuable at endgame for other than consumbles.

My understanding was that combat was very limited in aTitD, and that pop was very low, which made pvp challenging, in a decidedly noninteresting way. 

Endgame= post max level behavior though I suppose if you are postulating equilibrium, then presumably there is something (interesting?) to do, even if it is just mob violence. 

Difficult crafting is the wrong phrase my bad. I meant  that to the degree possible, time and skill would create a variation in end results that favored smart or dedicated crafters.  Pre-CU/NGE SWG crafting being the most florid example.

I'm pretty flexible on types of PVP, or even its relative absence if preferred. But the ability to affect the game world persistently, with some strategic/resource underpinning to the zerging would be lovely.

Thanks again.

I think you should try A Tale in the Desert.  I'm not sure if you'd like it or not, but:

"I meant that to the degree possible, time and skill would create a variation in end results that favored smart or dedicated crafters."

That probably describes ATITD's crafting system better than any other crafting system that has ever existed.

"But the ability to affect the game world persistently, with some strategic/resource underpinning"

ATITD has quite a lot of that, too.  However:

"My understanding was that combat was very limited in aTitD, and that pop was very low, which made pvp challenging, in a decidedly noninteresting way. "

ATITD doesn't have combat at all.  But that doesn't mean it doesn't have PVP.  Because crafting can be hardcore PVP, too.  That statement might sound completely absurd, but only if you haven't seen how vicious the quarreling can get.  Because free for all full loot PVP is carebear compared to other players (not just mods!) having the ability to permanently ban your account.  (For a variety of reasons, this is very sparingly used, but if you go far out of your way to be an obnoxious jerk, you might get other players to ban you.)

ATITD has a weird leveling system, too, so it's not meant for you to reach max level.  Your level gates off content, so for example, you're not allowed to do X until you're level 10.  But if an activity requires level 10, then being level 20 doesn't give you the slightest advantage in that activity over someone who is only level 10.

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You might also want to have a look at Uncharted Waters Online.  The crafting process there isn't that complicated, as it's of the click a button to create an item variety.  But the trees of items that you can craft are so incredibly complicated that it can be pretty hard to figure out how to create items.  And that's even if you look them up on databases and wikis.

The best ships and ship parts come exclusively from crafting.  Some lower "level" stuff (quotes required because ships are the only items with level requirements attached) is available from NPCs at inflated prices, but that's mainly to make it easy for new players to get the newbie gear they want.

For items that you equip on your character, the best stuff is split between adventuring discoveries (go out into the world and find it) and crafting.  In particular, it's not sold by NPCs, and it usually isn't dropped by mobs (though there are a handful of exceptions).

And as an added bonus, if you go to Marseille, you can meet your namesake, Francois Rabelais.  He'll teach you Dutch, English, and theology, and wants to know about your art discoveries.  No, I am not making this up.  Seriously.  The game is set sometime around the 1520s and has a bunch of real-life figures in it.