Originally posted by Kidon

haters gonna hate who cares, not Bioware not me, the game as flaws will be adressed, if you dont like it leave, if you like it, play it like i do and i'm sure that by the time GW2 is out SWTOR will be much more solid with way more content and with less bugs, oh and rated WZ's awsome. Thanks ArenaNet for taking your time to release the game, if it had gonne live till March or so, it would have been bad for SWTOR.

 

 

Yawn.

Why do discussion boards always contain people telling everyone not to discuss anything? If you don't care what we think, why post on here? Just go away.

Originally posted by Matt_UK

 

Surely it's not just the amount of content that makes a game replayable though? I found no problem enjoying levelling 3 characters to max level in Rift because I focused on different factions each time and even the main quests were fun a second and a third time through and the regions enjoyable and nice to be in. I don't care how much content or how big the zones are in ToR, I can't see myself even bothering to level one character to 50 i'm so bored with steel corridors and 'bases' and dirt ball planets. It's just too dull.

Rift questing was boring as hell.  The world looked pretty, but the actual quests were horrible.  The epitome of "Kill X of Y" or "Go fetch me this" questing.   Way worse that TOR.  Way worse.  And the fact that you had to do EVERY SINGLE QUEST again every time you rolled an alt made the replayability of that game shit.

No offense, but I seriously have to question anyone who says they "enjoyed" questing in Rift.  Saying you like the environment in Rift better is understandable, but saying you enjoyed the questing?  I got one character to 50 in Rift, tried to roll an alt, which I got to level 25, and then came to the realization that I just couldn't stomach another boring run through the levelling process.  It was truly boring.  

Rift has some good attributes.  Replayability is not one of them. In fact, I'd say it's the least replayable MMO out there.

Unfortunately, I have to agree with this. After getting my first character to 50 and PVP'ing (lol Ilum lol 3 WZ's lol BM bags) I decided to roll an alt. I made it to 45, and even told myself that I'd stop to smell the roses and explore/datacron hunt while I leveled.  I just can't get myself to log on right now. I'm pretty certain that pure themepark MMO's are just not my thing anymore. There isn't one thing I can point to and say why TOR got so boring after I hit level cap the first time. The game just feels very "meh" to me.

I actually went and bought FFXIII-2 and have been playing that.

Originally posted by Zookz1

Unfortunately, I have to agree with this. After getting my first character to 50 and PVP'ing (lol Ilum lol 3 WZ's lol BM bags) I decided to roll an alt. I made it to 45, and even told myself that I'd stop to smell the roses and explore/datacron hunt while I leveled.  I just can't get myself to log on right now. I'm pretty certain that pure themepark MMO's are just not my thing anymore. There isn't one thing I can point to and say why TOR got so boring after I hit level cap the first time. The game just feels very "meh" to me.

 

I actually went and bought FFXIII-2 and have been playing that.

Good for you man!  LOL

Originally posted by Cthulhu23

The levelling path through Lotro is the same for every single character you have.

No it isn't, there are class quests and quests relating to crafting classes. Also you can choose between two zones most of the time to level in.

Originally posted by Matt_UK

Originally posted by Cthulhu23

The levelling path through Lotro is the same for every single character you have.

 

 

No it isn't, there are class quests and quests relating to crafting classes. Also you can choose between two zones most of the time to level in.

So it's unique for two playthroughs? So it's about on par with TOR then?

Originally posted by Matt_UK

Originally posted by smh_alot

Originally posted by sanosukex

Originally posted by smh_alot

 

 

Rift also had a world merely the size of Outland, even smaller than half of Kalimdor and EK and barely larger than a LotrO region. Personally I thought the rifts were fun the first couple of times but became less fun very quickly and the quests were as boring as they could get. If you talk replayability, sorry, but Rift has even less of that than what you claim TOR has. But, to each their own I guess.

agree Rift is pretty small but at least all the zones are connected and nothing aside from dungeons and warzones is instanced or phased and Rift has more quest in the higher zones also..

 

It doesn't really matter if the quests are plain and boring and if it means that when you're leveling an alt, you're doing all the exact same quests as well. Sure, in MMO's like LotrO, AoC and SWTOR you're prone to do a lot of the same quests as well, certainly when AoC and LotrO were less than a year out yet, but from all the MMO's Rift was the one that I found had the least replayability of all the MMO's I played, when it came to quest leveling. I'm not saying that people shouldn't enjoy their time in Rift, but when we're talking about replayability, sorry, that claim is just ridiculous imo. Even Aion and LotrO have more, and certainly these days.

 

Surely it's not just the amount of content that makes a game replayable though? I found no problem enjoying levelling 3 characters to max level in Rift because I focused on different factions each time and even the main quests were fun a second and a third time through and the regions enjoyable and nice to be in. I don't care how much content or how big the zones are in ToR, I can't see myself even bothering to level one character to 50 i'm so bored with steel corridors and 'bases' and dirt ball planets. It's just too dull.

Which is true, obviousely SWTOR an any one can see this, it's quantity over quality, good for now bad for later, I ccould emphasis more on it but it's hardly subjective how apparent it is they went with quantity.

Because like so many modern MMOs do they focus on quality after quantity.

And never heard of Dev's intentionally making the world dull an static so the experience is the same for everyone.

It is what it is, I mean in terms of trying out all stories yea replayability is great, but [gameplay] replay is limited.

It honestly takes time but it's possible to focus on both, if one tries.

Oh and by the way seeking be on par with previous MMOs is another reason why many claim this genre is stale.

Originally posted by Matt_UK

Surely it's not just the amount of content that makes a game replayable though? I found no problem enjoying levelling 3 characters to max level in Rift because I focused on different factions each time and even the main quests were fun a second and a third time through and the regions enjoyable and nice to be in. I don't care how much content or how big the zones are in ToR, I can't see myself even bothering to level one character to 50 i'm so bored with steel corridors and 'bases' and dirt ball planets. It's just too dull.

Maybe it is the fact that it relies too heavily on story? Can't exactly put my finger on it myself, but I've played other games that were rather linear in design and besides Aion never ran into an issue where it felt so tedious that I could not imagine leveling another alt. Then again I rather enjoyed LotR which obviously doesn't rely on story to the degree here, but I always enjoyed starting new characters in that game and until this game came along that was probably the most story oriented mmo around.

Or could just simply be the stories they have simply aren't that good are are rather forgettable. Least not enough that you would want to experience it multiple times. I wouldn't mind experiencing the other class quests but drudging through the other quests on the planets again? Can't say I'm real enthused about going through that again.

Outside my class quests there is only one planet's story line that I found really memorable and can honestly say I wouldn't mind running through again. The rest...meh...

Not to mention going through the hassle of trying to find groups for stuff again. Was bad enough as a healer can't imagine trying to do it on my server if I played a dps.

Originally posted by elocke

  

Again.  No.  Now I'm only basing this off of my own experience with multiple characters in both LOTRO and WoW.  With WoW, vanilla I could STILL level up more than 2 characters and not see one identical quest if I so chose.  In Lotro, it's a little less "large" but I remember skipping lone lands completely on my RK and then skipping most of North Downs on my hunter.  I remember skipping Evendim on my LM, and so on.  

Sorry man, that's just not true about either WoW or Lotro.  I played both games for years, including Vanilla WoW just after launch.  There is simply no way you could play WoW all the way through a second time without re-doing quests.  Unless you levelled up strictly through dungeon runs, which you can also do in TOR for the most part.  

As for Lotro, yeah, you can skip parts of some sections, and there is overlap with North Downs and Lone Lands.  But you have a lot of redundancy in that game as well, just as much as ToR.  And remember, we're talking about launch content, not content as it currently is.  At launch, or shortly after when Evendim came in, you had some leeway between North Downs and Lonelands and that was about it.  Evendim gave you a little more variety when it was released, but you still had to basically do the same zones in the same order.  You had the option of skipping certain quest hubs, just like you do in TOR, and moving onto the next zone.  

Again, I'm with you 100% on wanting to see more alternate levelling paths for TOR.  I don't think anyone wouldn't want that.  And Bioware has said they will bring that in future updates.  All I'm saying is that it's unfair to rail on TOR for not having alternative options in terms of choosing zones when games like Lotro and Rift didn't have them either at launch.  Hell, Rift still doesn't.  

If only they made leveling zones like FFXI or DAOC where we could pick from several camps to sit and grind monsters for hours and hours!

Alternative leveling right?

heh....

I think its sad that the transition from old school MMO's to new school has set the "alt" leveling path by the wayside.  Yeah its cool we have quests now and story lines and guided game play but... wheres the alternative areas to level through?

They made their games on such rails that we cannot choose a 2nd path...

While the old school games had so many paths it was hard to choose, but they were all very similar (ala grinding on monsters in groups of players)

Now we get one path, though its got a lot of shiny things along the way.

why not combine the two styles of game play?

Originally posted by Cthulhu23

Originally posted by Matt_UK

 

Surely it's not just the amount of content that makes a game replayable though? I found no problem enjoying levelling 3 characters to max level in Rift because I focused on different factions each time and even the main quests were fun a second and a third time through and the regions enjoyable and nice to be in. I don't care how much content or how big the zones are in ToR, I can't see myself even bothering to level one character to 50 i'm so bored with steel corridors and 'bases' and dirt ball planets. It's just too dull.

Rift questing was boring as hell.  The world looked pretty, but the actual quests were horrible.  The epitome of "Kill X of Y" or "Go fetch me this" questing.   Way worse that TOR.  Way worse.  And the fact that you had to do EVERY SINGLE QUEST again every time you rolled an alt made the replayability of that game shit.

No offense, but I seriously have to question anyone who says they "enjoyed" questing in Rift.  Saying you like the environment in Rift better is understandable, but saying you enjoyed the questing?  I got one character to 50 in Rift, tried to roll an alt, which I got to level 25, and then came to the realization that I just couldn't stomach another boring run through the levelling process.  It was truly boring.  

Rift has some good attributes.  Replayability is not one of them. In fact, I'd say it's the least replayable MMO out there.

 I didn't enjoy the questing in Rift, and I definitely agree with your assessment of it.  I will say though that one thing Rift's questing has over ToR is the placement of quest givers relative to quest objectives.

If you get a quest in Rift, you are almost guaranteed that the quest objective will be very close to the quest giver.  It's typically hardly a walk at all to get there.  Add on the fact that you get a mount at low level in Rift, and traveling isn't a big deal.

In ToR though?  The quest givers would sometimes be like a ten minute walk from the objective.  And you move SUPER slow.  Especially before you get sprint...and even afterwards, it's still bad.  I wound up quitting ToR because I got a quest that wanted me to walk for like 10 minutes and just said f^$k it.  This wasn't the only reason I quit, but it was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.

Originally posted by Cthulhu23

Originally posted by Matt_UK

 

Surely it's not just the amount of content that makes a game replayable though? I found no problem enjoying levelling 3 characters to max level in Rift because I focused on different factions each time and even the main quests were fun a second and a third time through and the regions enjoyable and nice to be in. I don't care how much content or how big the zones are in ToR, I can't see myself even bothering to level one character to 50 i'm so bored with steel corridors and 'bases' and dirt ball planets. It's just too dull.

Rift questing was boring as hell.  The world looked pretty, but the actual quests were horrible.  The epitome of "Kill X of Y" or "Go fetch me this" questing.   Way worse that TOR.  Way worse.  And the fact that you had to do EVERY SINGLE QUEST again every time you rolled an alt made the replayability of that game shit.

No offense, but I seriously have to question anyone who says they "enjoyed" questing in Rift.  Saying you like the environment in Rift better is understandable, but saying you enjoyed the questing?  I got one character to 50 in Rift, tried to roll an alt, which I got to level 25, and then came to the realization that I just couldn't stomach another boring run through the levelling process.  It was truly boring.  

Rift has some good attributes.  Replayability is not one of them. In fact, I'd say it's the least replayable MMO out there.

Bit of an over reaction.

Did I say I enjoyed the questing? No. I said I enjoyed levelling in Rift and questing is only a part of that. I said I enjoyed the main quests, the ones with story threads were pretty good (yes I know ToR thinks it invented that). The whole experience made levelling more fun than in ToR.

Maybe it was the setting that made it bareable. It was far more enjoyable killing X of Y in Shimmersand than on Balmorra. Plus the customisation of the souls and roles made it different too.

Originally posted by Laughing-man

why not combine the two styles of game play?

Would be nice but maybe it simply isn't realistic with today's expectations from a budgeting perspective?

Not to mention as nice as it would be to have alterante routes for leveling of your server doesn't have a lot of people it is already a pain in the ass to group. If there were several planets to choose from? Would be killer if your server was packed but if not...

Frankly, on my server unless people generally followed the same path anyways you might as well forget grouping for anything. It is hard enough as it is with just one set route people can use for leveling really.

I like the con cept in theory but pending on server populations unless you had some excellent lfg tools available this would be a deal breaker for many if they were unfortunately oin a server that didn't have the people for this type of progression.

Originally posted by Kalmarth

Glad you didnt play vanilla wow, because its all the thing you complain about, once past the starting area, you progress though the same areas with each toon you make all the way to max, and if you swap faction you still do the same.

ToR is still in Vanilla stage, once they get a few expansions going and get more planets up there will be more choice, but its a game just getting started.

Anyone want to help me build a time machine and take people back to the old games eq, eq2 and wow? I'm sure it would be an education to this must have it now generation.

I don't get this argument. We can forgive Bioware because this is a game just starting out? Are you saying they shouldn't have learned anything from all those other games you mentioned? Surely the point of any genre is to improve with every new release not start again at the same point ad infinitum?

Originally posted by nate1980

Originally posted by Cthulhu23

Sounds like the OP is a completionist.  If you are a completionist, then yes, the replayability of this game can be bad.  If you are actually smart about how you level your characters, this game's replayability is actually very good.

There are a TON of quests in this game.  More than you would ever need to do on your way to level 50.  And I'm not talking about class quests, I'm talking about world story arcs and side quests.  If one were to do all of these, you'd literally be 5-6 levels over every single planet's level range from about level 20 on.  I know, because one of my friends did it like this.  On the empire side, by the time he finished Balmorra's bonus quests, he was already about 5 levels above where he needed to be to start Nar Shaddaa, and he continued that kind of over-levelling throughout the entire game.  

Are you going to be going to the same planets in the same order?  Yes, unfortunately.  This is my major gripe with the way the game is designed and I hope that Bioware stays true to their word to add more planets and content for solo-oriented people and altaholics.  However, if you are smart about how you quest, and are willing to leave quests on the table, then you can literally have about half your quest content be compeletely different on your next character.  

Obviously, if you feel obligated to complete every single quest on every single planet, then yeah, for now, it will get mundane when you roll alts.  But if you are willing to leave quests and entire quest hubs on the table your first couple of characters through, there is no reason you should be doing the same content over every time.  Best advice I can give, until they start giving us some alternative levelling paths, which I'm confident they will do, is to just pick a couple of quest hubs out per zone to do the quests in, concentrate on class storylines, utilize your space combat dailies and pvp dailies every day.  Try to fit in a flashpoint when it's available, and utilize bonus quest chains on certain planets in order to spend LESS time on the planets you are too familiar with, and you should have no problems with redundancy.  

For example, I did not like questing in Nar Shaddaa.  I'm just not a big fan of indoor questing.  I like being outside.  So I went ahead and completed the bonus series on Balmorra so that I could skip large sections of Nar Shaddaa on my first character. In fact, by the time I hit Nar Shaddaa, I was nearly level 23, so I only had to do the class quest line and a few side quests there before moving onto Tatooine.  Then for my next alt, I skipped the Balmorra bonus series and did more of the quests on Nar Shaddaa, but still was able to skip entire quest hubs, which I can now do on my third alt if I choose.  

 

On my Scoundrel, I have done 100% of the quests and bonus quests on each planet. I'm at the exact lvl where I should be for the planet I'm on right now. I do each FP once when I reach the level for them, and I'm Rank 10 Valor. Maybe it's because I can stealth through most mobs, so I don't kill nearly as many trash mobs on the way to my objective, but I can't see how anyone can lvl 5-6 levels above a planets content. Currently I'm doing the Alderaan bonus series, which is this next step of my progression. After that is Belsavis, which starts at lvl 42. I'm lvl 41 right now and my quests on Alderaan are lvl 41.

Then you haven't done every available quest in every zone on each planet.  Even if you stealthed through all the mobs to your objectives, you would be over-levelled.  Sorry, you're missing some quest hubs.  On my Bounty Hunter who just hit 50, I  solo'd all the way through, did no flashpoints, did very few heroic quests, and left large amounts of quests undone.  I basically concentrated on class quests, space combat dailies, world quest arcs, and generally a couple of quest hubs per planets.  Only bonus series of quests I did were on Balmorra so I could skip through Nar Shaddaa with only class quests.  Every new zone I entered I was overlevelled by two levels.  In other words, I was always at least two levels higher than the minimum level for each new planet I entered, and would generally leave 2-3 levels higher than the max level, Nar Shaddaa being the exception.  My friend spent the entire levelling process after about level 20 doing green quests because he was 5-6 levels higher than he should be at about the mid point in the game due to him wanting to complete every single quest.

This game has a ridiculous amount of quest content.  No way you could do all of it and not be severely overlevelled by mid-game.

Originally posted by Cthulhu23

Originally posted by elocke

  

Again.  No.  Now I'm only basing this off of my own experience with multiple characters in both LOTRO and WoW.  With WoW, vanilla I could STILL level up more than 2 characters and not see one identical quest if I so chose.  In Lotro, it's a little less "large" but I remember skipping lone lands completely on my RK and then skipping most of North Downs on my hunter.  I remember skipping Evendim on my LM, and so on.  

Sorry man, that's just not true about either WoW or Lotro.  I played both games for years, including Vanilla WoW just after launch.  There is simply no way you could play WoW all the way through a second time without re-doing quests.  Unless you levelled up strictly through dungeon runs, which you can also do in TOR for the most part.  

As for Lotro, yeah, you can skip parts of some sections, and there is overlap with North Downs and Lone Lands.  But you have a lot of redundancy in that game as well, just as much as ToR.  And remember, we're talking about launch content, not content as it currently is.  At launch, or shortly after when Evendim came in, you had some leeway between North Downs and Lonelands and that was about it.  Evendim gave you a little more variety when it was released, but you still had to basically do the same zones in the same order.  You had the option of skipping certain quest hubs, just like you do in TOR, and moving onto the next zone.  

Again, I'm with you 100% on wanting to see more alternate levelling paths for TOR.  I don't think anyone wouldn't want that.  And Bioware has said they will bring that in future updates.  All I'm saying is that it's unfair to rail on TOR for not having alternative options in terms of choosing zones when games like Lotro and Rift didn't have them either at launch.  Hell, Rift still doesn't.  

 

How come you played all these games and didn't like any of them? Was it some kind of bet?

Originally posted by Matt_UK

I don't get this argument. We can forgive Bioware because this is a game just starting out? Are you saying they shouldn't have learned anything from all those other games you mentioned? Surely the point of any genre is to improve with every new release not start again at the same point ad infinitum?

In terms of content?  Hell yeah they should be "forgiven" for not having multiple zones for every level during the questing process.  You're kidding, right?  No game in the history of MMOs has ever been released with tons of alternative content available at every level of the process unless it was a specific design choice by the game, in which case we probably aren't talking about a themepark game anyway.  

WoW didn't have it.

Lotro didn't have it.

Aion didn't have it.

Conan didn't have it.  

Rift STILL doesn't have it.

But we're gonna trash TOR for not releasing with enough alternative levelling zones because they should have learned from all the others who have never done it?  Silly argument.

Originally posted by Matt_UK

Originally posted by Cthulhu23

Originally posted by elocke

  

Again.  No.  Now I'm only basing this off of my own experience with multiple characters in both LOTRO and WoW.  With WoW, vanilla I could STILL level up more than 2 characters and not see one identical quest if I so chose.  In Lotro, it's a little less "large" but I remember skipping lone lands completely on my RK and then skipping most of North Downs on my hunter.  I remember skipping Evendim on my LM, and so on.  

Sorry man, that's just not true about either WoW or Lotro.  I played both games for years, including Vanilla WoW just after launch.  There is simply no way you could play WoW all the way through a second time without re-doing quests.  Unless you levelled up strictly through dungeon runs, which you can also do in TOR for the most part.  

As for Lotro, yeah, you can skip parts of some sections, and there is overlap with North Downs and Lone Lands.  But you have a lot of redundancy in that game as well, just as much as ToR.  And remember, we're talking about launch content, not content as it currently is.  At launch, or shortly after when Evendim came in, you had some leeway between North Downs and Lonelands and that was about it.  Evendim gave you a little more variety when it was released, but you still had to basically do the same zones in the same order.  You had the option of skipping certain quest hubs, just like you do in TOR, and moving onto the next zone.  

Again, I'm with you 100% on wanting to see more alternate levelling paths for TOR.  I don't think anyone wouldn't want that.  And Bioware has said they will bring that in future updates.  All I'm saying is that it's unfair to rail on TOR for not having alternative options in terms of choosing zones when games like Lotro and Rift didn't have them either at launch.  Hell, Rift still doesn't.  

 

 

How come you played all these games and didn't like any of them? Was it some kind of bet?

What are you talking about?  I played WoW for 5 years.  Loved it.  I played Lotro for 2 years.  Loved it.  Just got bored of both of them after a while, as many people do in MMOs.  I'm just explaining that neither of those games gave you a ton of levelling options at launch, either.  

Originally posted by fiontar

I think the point is that the PVE leveling path is very linear, with few alternative paths due to lack of redundant content. (One big reason WoW was such a success was that even in Vanilla, there was plenty of redundancy, which allowed you to chart a leveling path through different combinations of zones that allowed you to have fresh content for a number of alts before you had seen almost everything). Also, as noted, the world zones in SWTOR are just incredibly "blah". In good MMOs, the zones will be "cool" enough that you want to play through them more than once. Not the case for many people here with TOR.

I totally agree. I remember leveling in the Barrens at night. Such a different experience from leveling during the day. Or going to Ashenvale after dark - the music, insect sounds, so much ambience and "coolness".

The day night cycle does not exist in SWTOR. The ambience is nil. I turned off the Hollywood music after the first 2 hours... I'm still playing the game, but it's not memorable like WoW or Everquest.

 

You realised it very late.Every game that has tons of speaking has zero replayability.Simply because voice acting stays a lot better in memory than text.

Moreover  this particular game has no fun combat and it makes u feel like a stupid bot