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Star Wars: The Old Republic

Star Wars: The Old Republic 

General Discussion  » Open Post To Bioware

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82 posts found
  vladww

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/05/04
Posts: 427

There are 3 kinds of people - those who can count, and those who can''t.

2/05/12 8:53:10 AM#41
Originally posted by Gruug
Originally posted by garry

Forums and posts - thousands of them so I thought I would toss my op in the mix.

 

Bioware - I am a 66 year old retired game designer (PnP). I looked forward to the new SWTOR, played a couple Betas, bought the DDE and am now playing. I want to congratulate you on a job well done. Are there some problems and bugs? Sure - just like EVERY OTHER MMO EVER LAUNCHED! I still like and have fun because the positive aspects of the game outweigh the negatives - by far - for me. Others who have different opinions state them, often, repeatedly, loudly and range from plain disappointment (normal) to outraged quitting obscenity. Puzzled as to why anyone would go thru so much time and effort, again repeatedly, to bash a simple video game, but have decided that it is simply some form of human nature.

 

Just as 'NEWS' organizations give priority to horrifying and 'bad' news, so do review organizations do the same. What works for the reputable news works for the new guys on the block as well. I decided to post instead of playing right now cause I have to go walk the dogs first. Then I will resume my game being a very lucky retired person who can play as much as I like.

 

And I like playing SWTOR. I have 3 characters, Jedi Knight, Smuggler and a new Trooper. Have some Empire characters I am looking forward to playing. I know the bug fixes and updates are coming, not really worried. So once again, well done Bioware and I am enjoying the game.

 

I agree with you 100%. Perhaps it is the fact that wisdom comes with age. Many of those that play games today have not real concept of what it was like over the last 30 years of video game development. All they see is what is there now and therefore have no perspective. I have yet to see the perfect game. What I look for is the game that is FUN FOR ME. SWTOR is one such game. Perfect...no. FUN...yes.

So, to mirror you comments, good job Biowware. Keep the great content coming as well as the fixes.

 

"To support mediocrity, theme park copycats, un-originality & spoon-fed easy content

has nothing to do with Wisdom"

Gandhi - 1825

****************************
Playing : Uncharted Waters Online
****************************

  Wickedjelly

Novice Member

Joined: 4/19/09
Posts: 5064

The Dude abides

2/05/12 8:53:10 AM#42

Good to see. Glad you're enjoying the game OP.

Not sure why seeing you made an open letter yourself to BW expressing your thoughts about the game that you're somehow puzzled why others would want to express their feeling too. But hey, whatevah...

 

1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  sanosukex

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/08/05
Posts: 1857

2/05/12 8:56:35 AM#43
Originally posted by vladww

 

"To support mediocrity, theme park copycats, un-originality & spoon-fed easy content

has nothing to do with Wisdom"

Gandhi - 1825

 

+1  I still can't see how people with long gaming histories can support mediocrity like this...

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html

  smh_alot

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/10/12
Posts: 990

2/05/12 9:06:37 AM#44
Originally posted by sanosukex
Originally posted by vladww

 

"To support mediocrity, theme park copycats, un-originality & spoon-fed easy content

has nothing to do with Wisdom"

Gandhi - 1825

 

+1  I still can't see how people with long gaming histories can support mediocrity like this...

 

Isn't it obvious? For the same reason as why people play MMORPG's that others dislike, the most important reason for MMO gaming at all: because to them it is fun and they're having a great time.


In the same line, I don't see why some people want MMO gaming to make some ideological thing, "don't buy mediocre products!" and all that jazz.

Seems to me a far simpler motivation that's behind all that: "I don't like that game or am unable to get my dose of pleasure and fun from it, therefore I want other people to not buy and enjoy those games either, in the hopes that games that I'm able to get my own fun in will get more support". Something like that :-)


Not everyone thinks like that of course. But skip all the ideology and posturing, and MMO gaming is simply about 1 plain question: is someone having fun in a game or not?

If so, then good, the game works to give him what he was looking for, namely entertainment for his invested time, if not, then someone needs to look further for a game that does.
  sanosukex

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/08/05
Posts: 1857

2/05/12 9:17:40 AM#45
Originally posted by smh_alot
Originally posted by sanosukex
Originally posted by vladww

 

"To support mediocrity, theme park copycats, un-originality & spoon-fed easy content

has nothing to do with Wisdom"

Gandhi - 1825

 

+1  I still can't see how people with long gaming histories can support mediocrity like this...

 

Isn't it obvious? For the same reason as why people play MMORPG's that others dislike, the most important reason for MMO gaming at all: because to them it is fun and they're having a great time.

 


In the same line, I don't see why some people want MMO gaming to make some ideological thing, "don't buy mediocre products!" and all that jazz.

 

Seems to me a far simpler motivation that's behind all that: "I don't like that game or am unable to get my dose of pleasure and fun from it, therefore I want other people to not buy and enjoy those games either, in the hopes that games that I'm able to get my own fun in will get more support". Something like that :-)

 


Not everyone thinks like that of course. But skip all the ideology and posturing, and MMO gaming is simply about 1 plain question: is someone having fun in a game or not?

 

If so, then good, the game works to give him what he was looking for, namely entertainment for his invested time, if not, then someone needs to look further for a game that does.

let me give you an example of why i feel somewhat cheated by this game. Some things about me

1. I love MMO's of all kinds especially themeparks

2. I love love love Star Wars and have since I was a little boy

3. I love biowares games such as KOTOR, Mass Effect, Dragon age

 

now how in the hell could this game be such a dissapointment to me if it was so great. I should be a #1 fan praising this game and all it stands for seeing what I like above. This game is the single most dissapointing game I have ever been looking forward to in my long gaming history and to me that says a lot.. but whatever if people think this game is the greatest thing ever then more power to them.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html

  Kuinn

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/10/11
Posts: 2028

2/05/12 9:26:27 AM#46
Originally posted by sanosukex
Originally posted by smh_alot
Originally posted by sanosukex
Originally posted by vladww

 

"To support mediocrity, theme park copycats, un-originality & spoon-fed easy content

has nothing to do with Wisdom"

Gandhi - 1825

 

+1  I still can't see how people with long gaming histories can support mediocrity like this...

 

Isn't it obvious? For the same reason as why people play MMORPG's that others dislike, the most important reason for MMO gaming at all: because to them it is fun and they're having a great time.

 


In the same line, I don't see why some people want MMO gaming to make some ideological thing, "don't buy mediocre products!" and all that jazz.

 

Seems to me a far simpler motivation that's behind all that: "I don't like that game or am unable to get my dose of pleasure and fun from it, therefore I want other people to not buy and enjoy those games either, in the hopes that games that I'm able to get my own fun in will get more support". Something like that :-)

 


Not everyone thinks like that of course. But skip all the ideology and posturing, and MMO gaming is simply about 1 plain question: is someone having fun in a game or not?

 

If so, then good, the game works to give him what he was looking for, namely entertainment for his invested time, if not, then someone needs to look further for a game that does.

let me give you an example of why i feel somewhat cheated by this game. Some things about me

1. I love MMO's of all kinds especially themeparks

2. I love love love Star Wars and have since I was a little boy

3. I love biowares games such as KOTOR, Mass Effect, Dragon age

 

now how in the hell could this game be such a dissapointment to me if it was so great. I should be a #1 fan praising this game and all it stands for seeing what I like above. This game is the single most dissapointing game I have ever been looking forward to in my long gaming history and to me that says a lot.. but whatever if people think this game is the greatest thing ever then more power to them.

 

So this is a single most dissapointing game of all times, when you are a themepark fan (tor - check), Star Wars (tor - check), tor also has very similar gameplay and story telling like KOTOR and Dragon age. Does that make you a liar or a troll?

 

And, no it's not the greatest game of all times, not even close, still having helluva lot of fun with it.

  sanosukex

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/08/05
Posts: 1857

2/05/12 9:31:07 AM#47
Originally posted by Kuinn
 

 

So this is a single most dissapointing game of all times, when you are a themepark fan (tor - check), Star Wars (tor - check), tor also has very similar gameplay and story telling like KOTOR and Dragon age. Does that make you a liar or a troll?

 

And, no it's not the greatest game of all times, not even close, still having helluva lot of fun with it.

putting words in my mouth I said to ME its the most dissapointing game "I was looking forward to"

but to me after getting level 20+ on several characters the game was not fun at all and just another boring clone made to sell copies of spoon fed garbage to the masses trying to capitalize on a huge IP.. call me what you want but from my history of games and what I like I should love this game but don't  because to me it's just not a good game.

 

also your checklist is how I feel they made this game without actually putting any depth or real thought into making it.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html

  smh_alot

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/10/12
Posts: 990

2/05/12 9:38:11 AM#48
Originally posted by sanosukex

let me give you an example of why i feel somewhat cheated by this game. Some things about me

1. I love MMO's of all kinds especially themeparks

2. I love love love Star Wars and have since I was a little boy

3. I love biowares games such as KOTOR, Mass Effect, Dragon age

 

now how in the hell could this game be such a dissapointment to me if it was so great. I should be a #1 fan praising this game and all it stands for seeing what I like above. This game is the single most dissapointing game I have ever been looking forward to in my long gaming history and to me that says a lot.. but whatever if people think this game is the greatest thing ever then more power to them.

 

Again, you're failing to see my point: if YOU are not able to enjoy the game, doesn't mean that others, who also like themeparks and SW and BW games, aren't or shouldn't. Some will, some won't, but if it's fun to them then that game fulfills its purpose, namely providing entertainment to them for invested time. I can see why you're disappointed, but that doesn't mean that others who share the same outlook will or should as well.

If I like icecream or pie, doesn't mean that I necessarily like ALL types and flavors of icecream or pie. I might dislike blackberry icecream or pie. However, when I notice that I start to dislike more and more types of icecream that used to taste wonderful in the past, then it might be something else, and I'd have to consider that maybe my tastes have changed and that icecream isn't the big favorite to me anymore that it used to be. However, if I still like all icecream flavors except with blackberry in it, then it's just the same preferences in taste that I always had.

Meaning, if you notice that you're less and less able to enjoy themeparks, then maybe something else is going on, but if you hugely enjoyed all themeparks except TOR, then you should be golden with the next themepark you'll give a try.
  RizelStar

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/11
Posts: 2823

We all breathe and we all die.

2/05/12 9:38:12 AM#49
Originally posted by sanosukex
Originally posted by Kuinn
 

 

So this is a single most dissapointing game of all times, when you are a themepark fan (tor - check), Star Wars (tor - check), tor also has very similar gameplay and story telling like KOTOR and Dragon age. Does that make you a liar or a troll?

 

And, no it's not the greatest game of all times, not even close, still having helluva lot of fun with it.

putting words in my mouth I said to ME its the most dissapointing game "I was looking forward to"

but to me after getting level 20+ on several characters the game was not fun at all and just another boring clone made to sell copies of spoon fed garbage to the masses trying to capitalize on a huge IP.. call me what you want but from my history of games and what I like I should love this game but don't  because to me it's just not a good game.

 

also your checklist is how I feel they made this game without actually putting any depth or real thought into making it.

sano your not allowed to be dissappointed by this game, it's not normal.

I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

  Havok2all

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/18/09
Posts: 187

2/05/12 9:39:35 AM#50

You know, the great thing I came away with from this post was that I have the potential to still be enjoying video games at 66! That's an awesome relief to know! :P 

  sanosukex

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/08/05
Posts: 1857

2/05/12 9:46:17 AM#51
Originally posted by RizelStar
Originally posted by sanosukex
Originally posted by Kuinn
 

 

So this is a single most dissapointing game of all times, when you are a themepark fan (tor - check), Star Wars (tor - check), tor also has very similar gameplay and story telling like KOTOR and Dragon age. Does that make you a liar or a troll?

 

And, no it's not the greatest game of all times, not even close, still having helluva lot of fun with it.

putting words in my mouth I said to ME its the most dissapointing game "I was looking forward to"

but to me after getting level 20+ on several characters the game was not fun at all and just another boring clone made to sell copies of spoon fed garbage to the masses trying to capitalize on a huge IP.. call me what you want but from my history of games and what I like I should love this game but don't  because to me it's just not a good game.

 

also your checklist is how I feel they made this game without actually putting any depth or real thought into making it.

sano your not allowed to be dissappointed by this game, it's not normal.

heh wel lI know someone will fire back and say well I must not be allowed to LIKE the game.. either way I was just more or less trying to explain why I hang around here and post my feelings for the game. I have very strong feelings for the IP and MMOs in general as they are a BIG hobby for me. I tried my hardest to get enjoyment out of this game. I quit mid january. Then picked my sub back up and gave it another week with multiple differn't characters to try and find some enjoyment.. to me I just can't get passed the horribly generic classes and talent trees not to mention the same damn combat we have played for the last decade(taking out auto attack does not change the fact combat is the exact same we have seen since EQ1).. it just feels so wrong swinging a lightsaber at a little critter over and over and it not dying in one slice. Everything just feels wrong and to me its a disgrace to the IP and wish they just went with a mass effect MMO then I'd have no issues just saying hell with this one and move on..  always hoping for that miracle patch I'm sure will never come..

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html

  smh_alot

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/10/12
Posts: 990

2/05/12 9:47:23 AM#52
Originally posted by RizelStar

sano your not allowed to be dissappointed by this game, it's not normal.

 

You mean, in the same line, you're not allowed to have fun with the game, because it's not normal and you're supporting the wrong products and you should know better when you have a long gaming experience by the people who were unable to enjoy the game, something like that? >.>


:-)
  snapfusion

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/17/11
Posts: 976

2/05/12 9:48:01 AM#53
Originally posted by Durray

It is not human nature to put the game down and a lot of negative comments are not to 'bash' the game. But to warn others away.

I am part of this forum to communicate with fellow hobbyists. Part of this is the exchanging of opinions and information.

Mine being: If you want a good PvE game buy it if you want a good PvP game take your money elsewhere. If you want ingenuity, graphics, gameplay, polish, fewer bugs wait for their patches in 3-6 months and check it out again.

I know that 90% of my Guild mates would not enjoy this game (PvP Guild) and have advised them to stay clear, for now. On this forums I simply advise fellow PvP'ers caution there is exceptionally little.

Thank you for telling me what to do with my money, I have mostly PvPed in this game on two different characters and find myself having a really good time.  Your post makes as much sense as trying to tell someone not to eat at some burger joint that you dont like though its always packed with peopole enjoying their burgers.

 

edit:  And yes it is defintely human nature to obsess on things good and bad.  Hes referring to the people that have 300 posts violently bashing the game, and doing most of the them in someones post that is talking about some aspect of the game they like.

  karat76

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/22/06
Posts: 1011

Greatest threat to society is letting casualties of puberty reproduce.

2/05/12 9:48:06 AM#54

I am enjoying the game in moderation. Who knows I might even make it to 50 in the next few weeks. I never expected this to be the greatest of all time. Just a standard themepark ride with a different skin. I am okay with that  they never made me think it was anything else. Some of these complaints have little merit as BW to me did not hide the fact it was themepark.  Honestly not sure with todays gamers I could tolerate the community if I logged in much more.

  RizelStar

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/11
Posts: 2823

We all breathe and we all die.

2/05/12 9:51:19 AM#55
Originally posted by sanosukex
Originally posted by RizelStar
Originally posted by sanosukex
Originally posted by Kuinn
 

 

So this is a single most dissapointing game of all times, when you are a themepark fan (tor - check), Star Wars (tor - check), tor also has very similar gameplay and story telling like KOTOR and Dragon age. Does that make you a liar or a troll?

 

And, no it's not the greatest game of all times, not even close, still having helluva lot of fun with it.

putting words in my mouth I said to ME its the most dissapointing game "I was looking forward to"

but to me after getting level 20+ on several characters the game was not fun at all and just another boring clone made to sell copies of spoon fed garbage to the masses trying to capitalize on a huge IP.. call me what you want but from my history of games and what I like I should love this game but don't  because to me it's just not a good game.

 

also your checklist is how I feel they made this game without actually putting any depth or real thought into making it.

sano your not allowed to be dissappointed by this game, it's not normal.

heh wel lI know someone will fire back and say well I must not be allowed to LIKE the game.. either way I was just more or less trying to explain why I hang around here and post my feelings for the game. I have very strong feelings for the IP and MMOs in general as they are a BIG hobby for me. I tried my hardest to get enjoyment out of this game. I quit mid january. Then picked my sub back up and gave it another week with multiple differn't characters to try and find some enjoyment.. to me I just can't get passed the horribly generic classes and talent trees not to mention the same damn combat we have played for the last decade(taking out auto attack does not change the fact combat is the exact same we have seen since EQ1).. it just feels so wrong swinging a lightsaber at a little critter over and over and it not dying in one slice. Everything just feels wrong and to me its a disgrace to the IP and wish they just went with a mass effect MMO then I'd have no issues just saying hell with this one and move on..  always hoping for that miracle patch I'm sure will never come..

I hope they do make a mass effect MMO but try to take their designs off of another MMO, I think it'd be awesome.

"Reapers are attacking!!!!" *You actually see them attacking and literally coming in gameplay, not just chilling in groups of 3* 

Damn really if any MMO did that, it would break some ground alright, doesn't even have to be on the ME IP.

I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

  freakky

Novice Member

Joined: 4/03/08
Posts: 58

2/05/12 9:51:45 AM#56

OP you don't even say what you like about the game. I don't understand Open post to Bioware on a site they wont read? I'm playing it and enjoy the story telling mostly and few skills and graphics. Zoning system is great also. I feel raiding is lacking. Only 2 raid zones but they got different  settings like hard and nightmare. Hard and nightmare have same loot. Also can do 8 or 16man raid both the same loot and content. 

 

I'm honestly over the the story telling part of the game. Once you take that away there isn't much to the game. Hard mode instance for lvl 50 get boring after you done them all. Kaon patch they been working on for year before release and haven't let it all out yet. If it took them that long to make that how long will it take them for newer content?

I'm not trying hate on anyone enjoying the game. Enjoy it and have fun. That is great. I just feel I will get bored with it soon and I'm sure I'm not alone on that. I still have bit of hope it will get better but also little unsure about that.

  RizelStar

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/11
Posts: 2823

We all breathe and we all die.

2/05/12 9:52:49 AM#57
Originally posted by smh_alot
Originally posted by RizelStar

sano your not allowed to be dissappointed by this game, it's not normal.

 

You mean, in the same line, you're not allowed to have fun with the game, because it's not normal and you're supporting the wrong products and you should know better when you have a long gaming experience by the people who were unable to enjoy the game, something like that? >.>

 


:-)

Yea your weird either way ha ha.

 

Personally I don't like being normal myself.

 

I think this forum welcomes us weirdos.

I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

  byronara

Novice Member

Joined: 11/28/10
Posts: 10

2/05/12 10:04:02 AM#58

Once Story lines and lvling Done u have the real promblem .

Called End game mr ex-Developer . I play MMOs from DAOC Time  so truest me u cant be on MMOs more than any1 else around who played MMOs from begin . And also a Player(customer) see the things different than a Dev . U see Database and Money . We see the whole freaking END GAME . 

 

Have 3 Chars LvL 50 . Sniper / Operative / Assasin .  When i hitted 50 the things u need to do seems a lot . But they aint . Manage to be Full Battlemaster on my Operative and almost full champion and Semi-Battle on rest 2 . So tell me mr Dev as an operative what shoudl i do the time i login (Ofc u need to answer me if u have hitted 50 cozz u seem u havent or u just hitted ) ?

1st :  2 OPs Flashpoints (2 Booses are bugged) but hey i hate PvE so i wont argue on anything include PvE 

2nd:  Illum - Epic Grind fest  . No skill at all to PvP u just stay and aoe or buff and u take the Valour and Kills 

3rd: WZs    So i did all that grind to go online and play a 10 vs 10 PvP over and over for how long time ? some time u will get                bored of it . After 10 WZs u cant play more .

 

So what Star Wars Has ? Just a Perfect Story line and really good lvling w/o getting u bored ( I must admit that ) But i dont play the game for the 2 weeks till i hit 50 . I play the game for all that can be happened after i Hit 50 . And Star Wars has nothing After 50 . 

And before the Fans start to Whine . I am a Fan of Star Wars my Self for like 20 years . Been playing SwG 3 years . and no i dont play WoW hate the game .  I just want a Game to make me getting addict to it and not make me dont wanna login again .  had big hopes for Star Wars but it let me down . 

  smh_alot

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/10/12
Posts: 990

2/05/12 10:05:39 AM#59
Originally posted by RizelStar
Originally posted by smh_alot
Originally posted by RizelStar

sano your not allowed to be dissappointed by this game, it's not normal.

 

You mean, in the same line, you're not allowed to have fun with the game, because it's not normal and you're supporting the wrong products and you should know better when you have a long gaming experience by the people who were unable to enjoy the game, something like that? >.>

 


:-)

Yea your weird either way ha ha.

 

Personally I don't like being normal myself.

 

I think this forum welcomes us weirdos.

 

Hehe, yeah, I just HAD to react, it was too alluring ^_^

But meant in a friendly, tongue-in-cheek way, no offense meant or such :-)
  RizelStar

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/11
Posts: 2823

We all breathe and we all die.

2/05/12 10:15:14 AM#60
Originally posted by smh_alot
Originally posted by RizelStar
Originally posted by smh_alot
Originally posted by RizelStar

sano your not allowed to be dissappointed by this game, it's not normal.

 

You mean, in the same line, you're not allowed to have fun with the game, because it's not normal and you're supporting the wrong products and you should know better when you have a long gaming experience by the people who were unable to enjoy the game, something like that? >.>

 


:-)

Yea your weird either way ha ha.

 

Personally I don't like being normal myself.

 

I think this forum welcomes us weirdos.

 

Hehe, yeah, I just HAD to react, it was too alluring ^_^

 

But meant in a friendly, tongue-in-cheek way, no offense meant or such :-)

Oh yes that's understandable. 

I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

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