I went into a little detail about the kinds of things you can do with materials in the game I am designing in the unaptly named DownWithDiablo thread. I wanted to get some more detail and specific opinions on the carving and crafting and construction aspects of the system. I am going to avoid talking about the properties system as regards the combat and magic aspect of the game and focus on the aesthetic aspects.

As someone who wants to customize your character for either fashion or roleplay purposes what kinds of things are you looking for with the crafting UI?

As regards construction, I talked about using special materials for their effects and appearances. What do you think about using special materials for the light effects, for their physical appearance, about constructing cities with materials for themes? One theme is the dragon example I used in the other thread. You would need to be careful not to let decoration get in the way of pragmatism in defensive capabilities but many effective materials have interesting and distinct appearances.

I was thinking of having a carving system for items. For instance if you made a dragonbone stave you could carve shapes, either intricate carvings or just basic shapes or focus on lines. Maybe your staff top could be a cube or a circle? Maybe you want to facet a gem or w/e. I was thinking possibly of borrowing from second life and allowing the use of a model or art program like maia or blender or something to draw out the physical form of an item from the game, change it, and import it back in. I do have concerns about security issues with so much allowance for outside content but it doesn't seem to have hit second life too hard.

I was thinking of allowing some other art based functions. You would be able to paint the surfaces of buildings for instance. You could paint a mural or something, like of the time you killed that demon lord or something.

You could also do general carving things, like carving statues.

Again this is something I think you might have to do in a special interface for an actual art program.

As regards gear, I am considering allowing customizing things in ways that wouldn't affect the item stats. For instance you could create a mages cloak totally out of phoenix feathers and get the stat bonuses, but if you just put a ring of them around your hood it would just look pretty.

I understand that some of this sounds hard to imagine. Rendering this stuff on a character model might seem difficult or likely to result in implausible animations, such as the cloak no being affected by wind when running. I have always maintained that as an indie developer with limited time and money for art assets that I put options and features above graphics.

So maybe you wouldn't have the high res textures and animations from games like Aion. I probably couldn't do Aion level graphics anyways due to the world alteration and basic construction functions anyways, so this features won't hurt the graphics anymore than not having them.

I do think that a large commercial studio is capable of implementing these kinds of features with WoW or SWTOR graphics already but just haven't bothered. Sadly I am not a multimillionaire with 100 artists working for me.

Nevertheless, would you as a player appreciate this type of capability? How would you prioritize it over adding more functionality to the PvE and generally other features in the game?

Huh, expected at least one post on this. Not one person is concerned with customizing gear appearance?

Originally posted by Cuathon

Huh, expected at least one post on this. Not one person is concerned with customizing gear appearance?

Might have to do with your presentation.  Maybe try speaking more hypothetically, in terms of games people know and love (to complain about) ..when you start talking about a game you're designing, I think people tend to just read that as a cue back away slowly.

Originally posted by Vhaln

Originally posted by Cuathon

Huh, expected at least one post on this. Not one person is concerned with customizing gear appearance?

 

Might have to do with your presentation.  Maybe try speaking more hypothetically, in terms of games people know and love (to complain about) ..when you start talking about a game you're designing, I think people tend to just read that as a cue back away slowly.

Some of my other threads on the game have got more than 100 posts. But fair enough. I had started writing it more hypothetically because I guessed you might be right but then I lost track of myself :P

I did say that I was asking in general as well as specific terms. Perhaps also the wall of text is too large.

Customisation is the one thing that I think is very underappreciated by most developers.

That you can choose materials and colours for any given object or clothes already is a very nice touch. I'd be already very happy if I can look like I want to (plenty of faces and hairstyles, also length and fatness options) and can wear clothes and equip gear I like best while still having the best stats.

Originally posted by Findariel

Customisation is the one thing that I think is very underappreciated by most developers.

That you can choose materials and colours for any given object or clothes already is a very nice touch. I'd be already very happy if I can look like I want to (plenty of faces and hairstyles, also length and fatness options) and can wear clothes and equip gear I like best while still having the best stats.

How concerned are you with game consistency? For instance as my starting point for gear I wanted you to have to use the material or item with the stats as a base. So if you have the skin of a frost dragon you have to start with that. You could slice it up any way you like, although if you remove too much body cover you lose protection values. Sorry all those asian games with bikinis and loin cloths annoy me. You can essentially tailor most armors that aren't metal or stone or bone. You can paint them any color. You could put on decorations like the aforementioned phoenix feathers. Decorations would not provide you with any stat bonuses and you must actually own the items you are using to decorate.

In theory we could make a game where you could have your armor look like whatever you want and cover whatever you want and have that separate from stats. However I personally would not design or play such a game. Is being limited to actual materials a dealbreaker?

If I allowed the painting type feature for things like murals do you think anyone would actually use it? No use writing all the code for something that is not used.

It sounds good, character art customization is really overlooked and it is more or less unheard about guildcities.

There are many cool items you could add that alter how the character looks, like a hairpin that changes your hairdo whileyou wear it (perfect with those phoenix heathers BTW).

Allowing the players to set the style on their guildcity is also great. Why not let the guild druid find some flowers and place them outside a house as well? Small stuff like that makes you feel like it really is your city unlike the GC in AoC where al cities more or less are exactly the same.

Originally posted by Loke666

It sounds good, character art customization is really overlooked and it is more or less unheard about guildcities.

There are many cool items you could add that alter how the character looks, like a hairpin that changes your hairdo whileyou wear it (perfect with those phoenix heathers BTW).

Allowing the players to set the style on their guildcity is also great. Why not let the guild druid find some flowers and place them outside a house as well? Small stuff like that makes you feel like it really is your city unlike the GC in AoC where al cities more or less are exactly the same.

Well I did not set up the game with non essential life forms and there is some issue in that all plants have an alchemical value so I am wary of letting you grow them. I guess all plants could have seeds that can grow into alchemically inert versions of themselves for decoration purposes?

One thing to note is that big fancy cities require a lot of time and raiding and gather and construction to set up. Many games like ATITD have you set a blueprint and then just gather the res and it pops into existence. Some don't even require that much. And the resource costs will be much higher than in ATITD also.

In the case of materials besides gathering ones like dirt and stone and mud and brick and such its pretty hard to get enough dragon bone to construct an entire city. So there are some limitations.

I am also worried about the fact that if your city is destroyed it might be enough to get people to quit for losing all that work. And no matter how much I push that cities need to be defensible people may not listen.

Hair style seems a little complex to deal with for me personally though in a game with a whole art and model team I think it would be pretty cool.

If players were willing to deal with a modeling tool of the kind I would be using myself to make game elements I think they could probably get some hairstyling type things done? Kinda like the art imports second life does? I don't want it to be too difficult though and I hear second life often involves people paying real money for artists to make things for them.

I'm all for functionality and gameplay so if I can see from the look of the gear what it does, I'd like that. For example a sword that does fire damage looks like the blade is on fire, armor against cold damage looks warm or the runes on an item tell what it does etc. Other than that I don't much care. Some customization is great, but some games put way too much effort into it considering the state of the rest of the game.

Originally posted by Quirhid

I'm all for functionality and gameplay so if I can see from the look of the gear what it does, I'd like that. For example a sword that does fire damage looks like the blade is on fire, armor against cold damage looks warm or the runes on an item tell what it does etc. Other than that I don't much care. Some customization is great, but some games put way too much effort into it considering the state of the rest of the game.

Well I will only be doing art stuff after gameplay stuff. I think that since all gear is crafted by players and so the player who owns it will know what it does that visual cues are less critical. Also I took out the pvp aspect, so you don't have to worry about knowing what an enemy's item does. And I would say that for stores a smart store owner will leave an item in unaltered form and then let the player order customization on it.

Originally posted by Cuathon

How concerned are you with game consistency? For instance as my starting point for gear I wanted you to have to use the material or item with the stats as a base. So if you have the skin of a frost dragon you have to start with that. You could slice it up any way you like, although if you remove too much body cover you lose protection values. Sorry all those asian games with bikinis and loin cloths annoy me. You can essentially tailor most armors that aren't metal or stone or bone. You can paint them any color. You could put on decorations like the aforementioned phoenix feathers. Decorations would not provide you with any stat bonuses and you must actually own the items you are using to decorate.

In theory we could make a game where you could have your armor look like whatever you want and cover whatever you want and have that separate from stats. However I personally would not design or play such a game. Is being limited to actual materials a dealbreaker?

If I allowed the painting type feature for things like murals do you think anyone would actually use it? No use writing all the code for something that is not used.

I'd like a touch of realism in a game, just as I wouldn't have liked seeing Aragorn walking up a snowy mountain in a loincloth in LoTR :-) For the rest I'd like decoration for the sake of it - but also many different base designs. As long as there's no need to wear an "Ancestral Robe of Doom with Elder Phoenix Feathers and Truesilver ornaments" - because those have the best stats.

Not sure if a lot of people would make buildings but if you can also customize it it would be a nice touch. How many people would use it - that would also depend on the cost, chance it gets detroyed and the practical use of the constructions.

Originally posted by Findariel

Originally posted by Cuathon

How concerned are you with game consistency? For instance as my starting point for gear I wanted you to have to use the material or item with the stats as a base. So if you have the skin of a frost dragon you have to start with that. You could slice it up any way you like, although if you remove too much body cover you lose protection values. Sorry all those asian games with bikinis and loin cloths annoy me. You can essentially tailor most armors that aren't metal or stone or bone. You can paint them any color. You could put on decorations like the aforementioned phoenix feathers. Decorations would not provide you with any stat bonuses and you must actually own the items you are using to decorate.

In theory we could make a game where you could have your armor look like whatever you want and cover whatever you want and have that separate from stats. However I personally would not design or play such a game. Is being limited to actual materials a dealbreaker?

If I allowed the painting type feature for things like murals do you think anyone would actually use it? No use writing all the code for something that is not used.

I'd like a touch of realism in a game, just as I wouldn't have liked seeing Aragorn walking up a snowy mountain in a loincloth in LoTR :-) For the rest I'd like decoration for the sake of it - but also many different base designs. As long as there's no need to wear an "Ancestral Robe of Doom with Elder Phoenix Feathers and Truesilver ornaments" - because those have the best stats.

Not sure if a lot of people would make buildings but if you can also customize it it would be a nice touch. How many people would use it - that would also depend on the cost, chance it gets detroyed and the practical use of the constructions.

Well the game has no NPC towns. And player towns and their defensive, crafting, social, and organization aspects are critical to players being able to hold off the hordes of monsters invading the worlds in the game.

I am pretty sure there will be enough hardcore sandboxers to actually harvest all the mats and build the towns and they will probably not worry too much about letting more artsy people decorate. 

Assume that you have at least several hundred buildings in the game with surfaces conducive to painting. Would you or anyone you know actually take advantage of a mural drawing feature? Ideally these would reference the theme of the town if there is one, possible a famous or infamous battle in the game, or something like that, but I wouldn't use dev powers to control it. That is up to the building owners to deal with.

Small frontier towns would probably be in very precarious positions. But towns closer to the world gate which is likely to be the center of society will be in much less danger of dying.

As for the equipment customization,

I think the more customization you can put in, the better.  I recall one day whilst playing WoW, waiting for a boat to arive, another warlock came up to wait, and he looked exactly like my character. We had all the same quest gear with the exception of one item. I almost quit playing right then and there.

When I think back to Asherons Call nobody looked the same unless they tried to.  So many different types of armor in so many colors, and then you could add dyes to them, and you could imbue them with different attributes. It was (is) awesome.

If you could reproduce something like that it would be a huge selling point.

As for the player made towns,

Not to keen on this idea, at least not without more details as how it would affect the "casual" player who might not have the time to be able to commit to town building. So where would that leave a player like myself? Would I have to pay tribute to the town architect or be left out for the monsters to have their way with? Or would every player be able to make their own town leaving the world to look like a third world country shanty town?

I like the idea, but I think implementation balance may be a stiff obstacle to overcome. A very ambition goal to be sure. Good luck with it.

To solve the equipment custamization, what if you had all gear have blank stats, and they get imbued or socketed with the stats later.  And the gear can be re-imbued and re-socketed at anytime.  The crafters and quest rewards could even make certain imbues and sockets.  That way, if you're happy with a certain look, you never have to change it.  You could even make some of the imbues effect the armor discreetly. 

For example: that mage is still wearing the same old coat, but with imbue +50 INT, suddenly its outlined with gold, and the buttons are glowing...

Another Example: that paladin is wearing the same armor he has had for 30 levels, but there is a faint pattern carved into it, and it changes based on the imbue.

or from SWTOR: the color of ma laser changes with the crystal

Originally posted by karter64

As for the equipment customization,

I think the more customization you can put in, the better.  I recall one day whilst playing WoW, waiting for a boat to arive, another warlock came up to wait, and he looked exactly like my character. We had all the same quest gear with the exception of one item. I almost quit playing right then and there.

This is so irritating. I hate it.

When I think back to Asherons Call nobody looked the same unless they tried to.  So many different types of armor in so many colors, and then you could add dyes to them, and you could imbue them with different attributes. It was (is) awesome.

If you could reproduce something like that it would be a huge selling point.

Its going to be a lot more in depth than that. Armors will be built from a selection of resources which are first processed which can do somethings to stats and colors and textures based on what you do. The actual crafting will ideally allow you to do things like carve a staff from a log, or choose from a predone template for casuals. You should be able to use one of many preset models for armor or talior or forge your own shapes. Alchemists or herablists will sell many kinds of dyes and paints. Attributes are based on the properties system of resources as well as processing functions. You can however add several enchantments of varying power levels to a single item. The power of enchantments depends on the materials properties, again processing, your personal crafting skills, or the skills of the other craftsmen who can assist you, and so forth. You can perform some processing to make the enchantments capability more powerful and you can always change enchantments out later on. Say you don't have access to an enchanter with powerful enchantments so you take the best you can. Later you do have access to better enchantments so you just switch them out. There are some combat functions that can add stacking bonuses to your items that are independent of item quality or player skills.

As for the player made towns,

Not to keen on this idea, at least not without more details as how it would affect the "casual" player who might not have the time to be able to commit to town building. So where would that leave a player like myself? Would I have to pay tribute to the town architect or be left out for the monsters to have their way with? Or would every player be able to make their own town leaving the world to look like a third world country shanty town?

I like the idea, but I think implementation balance may be a stiff obstacle to overcome. A very ambition goal to be sure. Good luck with it.

Casual players will most likely be allowed into towns by players. There is no PvP so other players have no reason to screw you over. Buildings can have permissions individually so most towns will probably let anyone shelter behind the walls at least. The world gate has powerful protections for the public although sufficient monster power can take them down later on in the game.

Town construction takes some serious investment and the game is not geared towards people with less than an hour or two a day to play. You can still play if you want but some features may not be as accessible for you.

My main focus is on helping players who have been screwed by the flood of casuals into games making linear themeparks and low complexity the name of the game.

Originally posted by Edeus

To solve the equipment custamization, what if you had all gear have blank stats, and they get imbued or socketed with the stats later.  And the gear can be re-imbued and re-socketed at anytime.  The crafters and quest rewards could even make certain imbues and sockets.  That way, if you're happy with a certain look, you never have to change it.  You could even make some of the imbues effect the armor discreetly. 

There are no npc crafters or any npcs at all much less quest givers. You can improve the enchantments you can fit on your item and raise the stats in some cases. You can also melt an item down and have it recrafted for better stats although at some point you will really want to start with better base materials as you progress.

For example: that mage is still wearing the same old coat, but with imbue +50 INT, suddenly its outlined with gold, and the buttons are glowing...

Another Example: that paladin is wearing the same armor he has had for 30 levels, but there is a faint pattern carved into it, and it changes based on the imbue.

or from SWTOR: the color of ma laser changes with the crystal

You can have ratty looking gear that is quite powerful. But you can only decorate with materials you personally possess.

Originally posted by Cuathon

Well I did not set up the game with non essential life forms and there is some issue in that all plants have an alchemical value so I am wary of letting you grow them. I guess all plants could have seeds that can grow into alchemically inert versions of themselves for decoration purposes?

One thing to note is that big fancy cities require a lot of time and raiding and gather and construction to set up. Many games like ATITD have you set a blueprint and then just gather the res and it pops into existence. Some don't even require that much. And the resource costs will be much higher than in ATITD also.

In the case of materials besides gathering ones like dirt and stone and mud and brick and such its pretty hard to get enough dragon bone to construct an entire city. So there are some limitations.

I am also worried about the fact that if your city is destroyed it might be enough to get people to quit for losing all that work. And no matter how much I push that cities need to be defensible people may not listen.

Hair style seems a little complex to deal with for me personally though in a game with a whole art and model team I think it would be pretty cool.

If players were willing to deal with a modeling tool of the kind I would be using myself to make game elements I think they could probably get some hairstyling type things done? Kinda like the art imports second life does? I don't want it to be too difficult though and I hear second life often involves people paying real money for artists to make things for them.

Hmm, you can´t really grow all kinds of plants in your garden anyways so let just some of them make seeds. Certain legendary flowers are said to only grow in certain places, like near a gallow or ona graveyard.

And in many cases it is where the flower grows and how you pick them that matters. As.an example people around where I live used to go out on midsummers morning and pick St Johns herb. If you didn´t say a word until after you picked them and picked them just that day they were said to keep bad things away. 

Just growing something in your garden does not make them magical, but it is an excellent way to make a common herb like basic colorings avaliable to players. 

I agree that it is likely that players quit if a city is too easy to destroy. Even if you guard it someone will pull together a large group and attack you at anodd hour to break it down.

There are methods of solving that even if they do limit things a bit. One that is rather logical is that you really need to lay siege a certain time before you actually can attack. In real sieges there were a lot of things you needed to do before you could storm, like dig trenches, set up siege machines and so on.

During all that time the defenders would have timne to organize themselves. Also, you usually want 10 times as many people attacking a fortified city to get the odds on your hand, if you have less than 5 times it was often considered impossible so you need some way to simulate that as well. Defensive weapons, murderholes with boiling oil and so on should be included in that city.

As for modeling stuff like clothes and hairstyles it is a great idea but you shouldn´t allow them to use real money, only in game currency and items. Real money is a slippery sloop.

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by Cuathon

Well I did not set up the game with non essential life forms and there is some issue in that all plants have an alchemical value so I am wary of letting you grow them. I guess all plants could have seeds that can grow into alchemically inert versions of themselves for decoration purposes?

One thing to note is that big fancy cities require a lot of time and raiding and gather and construction to set up. Many games like ATITD have you set a blueprint and then just gather the res and it pops into existence. Some don't even require that much. And the resource costs will be much higher than in ATITD also.

In the case of materials besides gathering ones like dirt and stone and mud and brick and such its pretty hard to get enough dragon bone to construct an entire city. So there are some limitations.

I am also worried about the fact that if your city is destroyed it might be enough to get people to quit for losing all that work. And no matter how much I push that cities need to be defensible people may not listen.

Hair style seems a little complex to deal with for me personally though in a game with a whole art and model team I think it would be pretty cool.

If players were willing to deal with a modeling tool of the kind I would be using myself to make game elements I think they could probably get some hairstyling type things done? Kinda like the art imports second life does? I don't want it to be too difficult though and I hear second life often involves people paying real money for artists to make things for them.

Hmm, you can´t really grow all kinds of plants in your garden anyways so let just some of them make seeds. Certain legendary flowers are said to only grow in certain places, like near a gallow or ona graveyard.

And in many cases it is where the flower grows and how you pick them that matters. As.an example people around where I live used to go out on midsummers morning and pick St Johns herb. If you didn´t say a word until after you picked them and picked them just that day they were said to keep bad things away. 

Just growing something in your garden does not make them magical, but it is an excellent way to make a common herb like basic colorings avaliable to players. 

I agree that it is likely that players quit if a city is too easy to destroy. Even if you guard it someone will pull together a large group and attack you at anodd hour to break it down.

No pvp. But some monster attacks will be mostly unstoppable if the players mess up badly in the strategic metagame.

There are methods of solving that even if they do limit things a bit. One that is rather logical is that you really need to lay siege a certain time before you actually can attack. In real sieges there were a lot of things you needed to do before you could storm, like dig trenches, set up siege machines and so on.

Some monsters do not need siege weapons, like dragons and wurms and such, but some do like goblins orcs and trolls and various devils and demons.

During all that time the defenders would have timne to organize themselves. Also, you usually want 10 times as many people attacking a fortified city to get the odds on your hand, if you have less than 5 times it was often considered impossible so you need some way to simulate that as well. Defensive weapons, murderholes with boiling oil and so on should be included in that city.

You can see creature attacks coming with proper scouting and scrying. I have acids and oils you can pour on enemies. You can also construct ballistas and catapults and towers and walls. In some cases you can enchant objects like walls and towers for defenses and they will defend automatically. Player avatars do not disappear when you go offline and there is a way to script them to defend towns.

As for modeling stuff like clothes and hairstyles it is a great idea but you shouldn´t allow them to use real money, only in game currency and items. Real money is a slippery sloop.

You could only use the ingame UI for art stuff and only for your own character. You can do art on other peoples items and buildings. I will not be allowing real money transactions.

Originally posted by Cuathon

No pvp. But some monster attacks will be mostly unstoppable if the players mess up badly in the strategic metagame.

Some monsters do not need siege weapons, like dragons and wurms and such, but some do like goblins orcs and trolls and various devils and demons.

You can see creature attacks coming with proper scouting and scrying. I have acids and oils you can pour on enemies. You can also construct ballistas and catapults and towers and walls. In some cases you can enchant objects like walls and towers for defenses and they will defend automatically. Player avatars do not disappear when you go offline and there is a way to script them to defend towns.

You could only use the ingame UI for art stuff and only for your own character. You can do art on other peoples items and buildings. I will not be allowing real money transactions.

Ah, sorry. But things still work in most cases. I think a huge long siege by a horde of orcs actually would be a whole lot of fun. :)

It sounds really good. Once a city is up it clearly is the fault of the guild if it gets destroyed (be a bit careful so ther players can´t kite dragons to the town though). While building the town on the other hand it will be pretty defensless.

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by Cuathon

No pvp. But some monster attacks will be mostly unstoppable if the players mess up badly in the strategic metagame.

Some monsters do not need siege weapons, like dragons and wurms and such, but some do like goblins orcs and trolls and various devils and demons.

You can see creature attacks coming with proper scouting and scrying. I have acids and oils you can pour on enemies. You can also construct ballistas and catapults and towers and walls. In some cases you can enchant objects like walls and towers for defenses and they will defend automatically. Player avatars do not disappear when you go offline and there is a way to script them to defend towns.

You could only use the ingame UI for art stuff and only for your own character. You can do art on other peoples items and buildings. I will not be allowing real money transactions.

Ah, sorry. But things still work in most cases. I think a huge long siege by a horde of orcs actually would be a whole lot of fun. :)

It sounds really good. Once a city is up it clearly is the fault of the guild if it gets destroyed (be a bit careful so ther players can´t kite dragons to the town though). While building the town on the other hand it will be pretty defensless.

Well in general starting a new town will be a pretty big undertaking. I described a way to get one going in the player built towns thread and i described an event involving town protection in the you call that a raid thread.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339729

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339682

Ideally you would want to scout the location for nearby lairs, set some traps to catch monster scouts so they can't report seeing a new player town to their society, build the town for a purpose, fort/defense hub vs a mining town and so forth.

I expect that given the right conditions you could have a goblin siege lasting maybe 48 straight hours? Longer will be rare because the actual size of towns and player guards and the size of creature raids won't be up to scale with Helms Deep.