Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Gylfi

When was the last time you said proudly to a girl you just met at the bar "i play videogames!"

Would never do it in a million years. If they eventually find out then fine. ; )

In this brave new world, a large percentage of boys and girls around the college age all have play, or actively play, some type of video games. Whether it is MMOs, consoles, cell phone games, or just facebook games, you will find it hard-pressed to find someone in their 20s now who doesn't play something preriodically.

Should that be your pick up line? Of course not! Unless she is wearing a super mario t-shirt. :)

Originally posted by Strayfe

With the quarterly report released, and indicating 1.7 million active subscribers, I just have to sit here and shake my head.  Whether or not the numbers are true, obviously the perception of investors is that they are.  This is a terrible sign for the MMORPG industry, because it means that those with the money are going to look at the market and see that the three most profitable games right now are WoW, SWTOR and RIFT.

In any industry, no matter what it is or whom it caters to, as consumers, we should be encouraging CHOICES AND VARIETY.  The problem with the 'hater' vs 'fanboy' debacle is that fanboys tend to look at it from a selfish perspective.  THEY are having fun, so consequently the game is great, and they wonder why everyone can't, or does not want to see how great the game is.  Meanwhile, the haters are looking at it from a broader perspective of what a successful SWTOR means.

This means essentially that the next five years will be the same as the previous five years.  The only thing we are going to see is more homogenized, linear themepark games.  SWTOR needed to fail to send a message to the industry, and apparently it hasn't.  When we needed to speak with our wallets, we did, but we sent the wrong message. 

We told the games industry to keep making big budget, linear themepark games.  We told the people with money loud and clear that what we all want is another clone of World of Warcraft.  We don't want complexity, depth, worldbuilding, social tools, meaningful interactions, group content or any of the staples that SHOULD define the genre, but no longer do.  We have told the industry to continue mass producing the exact same thing, over and over again, ad nauseam.  We have told them that our words mean nothing, and that, for all the complaining we may do, we really do enjoy being handheld through the entire game.

A failure of a massive title such as SWTOR could only have been good for the industry.  WoW is still there as a shining example of what an MMORPG can aspire to be, however, investors would have finally seen that the way to riches as it were, is not through continuing to copy WoW, but by finding a formula that works BETTER than WoW.  We have discouraged innovation and choice.

I want all fanboys and lovers of SWTOR to explain something to me in this thread.  If you are enjoying SWTOR, and you can understand the concepts I'm expressing, please look at this analogy.

Let's say you have a rather big city.  Once upon a time this city had no fast food industry at all.  One day someone opened a hot dog stand, and it caught on.  Many people began eating hot dogs and enjoying them.  One day, someone opened a hamburger stand named McDonalds.  People liked the hamburgers from McDonalds even better than the hot dogs.  They quit buying hot dogs from the hot dog vendors and gradually all the major hot dog places closed down, or ceased to be nearly as profitable as the hamburger places.  The McDonalds became so huge and so profitable that other restauranteers decided to go into the fast food industry to make their own fast food.  They look at the market trends and see that everyone LOVES McDonalds, so they keep trying to create hamburgers.  They all open their own hamburger place.  None of them does as good as McDonalds, but they do far better than the hot dog stands were doing.  This repeats for several years.

Meanwhile, you have a sizable group of people who miss eating hot dogs.  Their only options for hot dogs are poor, run down places with cockroaches in the kitchen.  There is maybe one good hot dog place in the entire city.  They tried hamburgers, but they just don't care for them as much as they do hot dogs.  They continue to wait for another new place with tasty new hot dogs to open, but it never does, because investors can make so much more money opening hamburger stands.

Now, let me ask you this.  As a lover of hamburgers.  As a lover of WoW/SWTOR and linear, by the book theme park games, do you believe it is fair that you have dozens of games that suit your playstyle, while the hot dog lovers, the sandbox/social/group content players have only one (that isn't a buggy awful mess)?  Do you truly believe that the industry is better served by saturation of one product over another, or do you believe as all consumers SHOULD that choice and variety can only be good for the gaming industry, and we don't have those anymore?

Let me clue you in a little bit.  The average 'hater' doesn't hate theme park games.  The average hater is SICK AND TIRED of them.  We want choice.  We want to play something else once in awhile, something different yet still AAA and high quality.  That is why we remain vocal on message boards such as these, it's why we insinuate ourselves in the game forums and, as all fanboys say: "complain about a game we don't even play".  It's because we have no other options.  Our choices have been taken away from us.

A successful SWTOR again destroys any hope on the horizon of seeing something new, because once again, investors will see that the way to money is by continuing to open hamburger stands.  Us hot dog fans will continue to be disappointed for years to come.

But you know the worst part?

Investors will continue to fail to realize that they could be making more money with something new.  Just like somebody once had the temerity to create a hamburger stand when everyone loved hot dogs, they became successful.  Nobody will take that plunge anymore.

Nobody will create tacos, or seafood, or chinese takeout.  Only hamburgers.  And it is SOLELY because of the selfishness of the fanboys, who cannot concede even for a moment that they DO have options for their playstyle, and that it is high time other people in the city of Progress had a turn at something shiny, tasty and new.

So yes, haters are gonna hate.  Because the MMORPG industry has proven to be the only industry where consumers seem to defy logic by choosing to reject the opportuntiy for variety and choices, and instead imbracing the factory-assembled 'checklist of fun' that is being conveyed out the door again and again.

Unacceptable.

 

 

Wrong. Very wrong. IF there were truly a lot of you that hate WoW/Rift/SWTOR, and IF you all really wanted a change in the way MMOs are made and were willing to pay for ut, there would be a game for you. The simple truth is, there are VERY few of you that don't have fun in one of those 3 game, and companies know that. Untill there is a sizeable number of people that want something different, it won't come.

P.S. Fanboys aren't your problem. The problem is you want something that the majority of the gaming world hates. The "Checklist of Fun" is successful because it IS fun.

P.S.S. "Fanboys" aren't demanding "Only make big budget themeparks". They're saying "Keep making the type of games we like. You can make other's too, if you want. We don't care. We won't be playing them, but sure, make them"

EVERYONE DOESN'T LIKE WHAT I LIKE!

Unacceptable.

 

 

This whole post is simply your opinion and nothing else. It never occurrs to people like you that there are people out there who like the games coming out and like the way things are going. 

In closing... a successful TOR is fine for the industry and it's way fine for me..... it's only bad for you. 

I think that SWTOR has some really good influences and a few bad ones on the mmo industry. The best influences are certainly storytelling, voiceover, and quality production. Bad are arhaic combat system and static world design, also too many instancing and feeling like you play a single player game, also I don't like p2p model (but that's just me). Should SWTOR fail because of that? NO.

hi all, 

well every game has its good and bad sides, that same with SWTOR, it canr be perfect and have everything at once, just take a look back at other mmos which are years on market and they still dont have all in game they wanted or planned at start.

not only this there are many other mmos on market which are if not worser than Swtor then they arent better, and all have if not same than similar problems. next thing is companies always built or made everything for majiority or mass population, and they will always produce for mass population products and not just for a small number of them, so its how industry works.

second i think the OP here is not objective he is only focusing on just one object , game or product name it however you like it, and he doesnt makes a fair looks at all others. if you dont like it trie and find a other way or form some petition and get more people and make it then official so it can get to the devloper or mass more people, and then trie to subject and make it how you want it, there are many ways to do it especially in 21 centuary.

I have always wondered one thing. There are so many self-claimed game developer/software programmer/graphic designers on this forum. Yet they never really get together and use a site like kickstarter or similar ones to gather fund and create a game of their dreams. 

As you guys said there are PLENTY of you out there. So, pitch in! 

Make a game you want by donate your money or talent! 

Wouldnt that be better than just waiting and hoping ? 

Originally posted by Talin

 

In this brave new world, a large percentage of boys and girls around the college age all have play, or actively play, some type of video games. Whether it is MMOs, consoles, cell phone games, or just facebook games, you will find it hard-pressed to find someone in their 20s now who doesn't play something preriodically.

Should that be your pick up line? Of course not! Unless she is wearing a super mario t-shirt. :)

I'm 44 so "no" ; )

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Talin

 

In this brave new world, a large percentage of boys and girls around the college age all have play, or actively play, some type of video games. Whether it is MMOs, consoles, cell phone games, or just facebook games, you will find it hard-pressed to find someone in their 20s now who doesn't play something preriodically.

Should that be your pick up line? Of course not! Unless she is wearing a super mario t-shirt. :)

I'm 44 so "no" ; )

Hmm you might be surprised....lol You should try it. 

Gaming is for sure better than gambling and drinking :P

and if you are married...better make sure to get permission first LOL

Originally posted by Strayfe

Originally posted by bossalinie
"Rise up everyone and quit playing what you enjoy and what fits you to save me..."

Am I doing it right?

I didn't say quit playing it.  I am not so naive that I believe anyone will magically wake up and change their opinion.  Instead, I made this post to get fans of SWTOR to explain to me one thing, and one thing only.

Could have fooled me with the title of this thread. When you title a thread that says you hope a game that we like to fail, don't expect sunshine and rainbows in the response.

"As a fan of SWTOR, do you feel that your playstyle and games that suit you should be the only games being made?"

That's the attitude of SWTOR fanboys, who don't realize that their fun comes (indirectly) at the expense of others, and then wonder why those others are flaming their game on the forums.

Please show me where anyone has said that their style of game should be the only one being made. I've never said it and neither has anyone else. I do think some fanboys have gone overboard in gushing about how great TOR is, but that comes with any game. I don't think it's perfect by any means, but it is definetly the most fun I've ever had playing an MMORPG. Another misconception of yours is that we've had previous games tailored to fit us. All I can say is that those previous games did a poor job of it because I never lasted the free month in any of them. If TOR was an exact copy of WOW I wouldn't touch it.

My fun does not come at the expense of yours. That is a very narcissistic view point that has  no basis in reality. The MMO world does not revolve around wether or not you and others like you are having fun. Entertainment always changes. Television was once dominated by westerns and then the 70s rolled around and they were gone. Popular music was all Elvis until the beatles came along. Right now MMORPGs are shifting from the old grindfests that were UO to EQ to WOW. TOR is just one of MANY MMOs that you have the option to play. Check out the gaming forums to the left of the screen and go from A -Z. Don't tell me that none of those game fits your playstyle. If that is the case then there is no pleasing you and TOR's success has no bearing on  your ability to enjoy MMOs.

Originally posted by Praetalus

EVERYONE DOESN'T LIKE WHAT I LIKE!

Unacceptable.

 

 

..... it's only bad for you. 

And for me. Hello. Plz don't isolate him, throw your stones at me too, cruel mob.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Talin

 

In this brave new world, a large percentage of boys and girls around the college age all have play, or actively play, some type of video games. Whether it is MMOs, consoles, cell phone games, or just facebook games, you will find it hard-pressed to find someone in their 20s now who doesn't play something preriodically.

Should that be your pick up line? Of course not! Unless she is wearing a super mario t-shirt. :)

I'm 44 so "no" ; )

that's right, either smart children or adults that turn murderers of communists.

All because games just have to be fun.

Originally posted by Strayfe

Originally posted by bossalinie
"Rise up everyone and quit playing what you enjoy and what fits you to save me..."

Am I doing it right?

I didn't say quit playing it.  I am not so naive that I believe anyone will magically wake up and change their opinion.  Instead, I made this post to get fans of SWTOR to explain to me one thing, and one thing only.

"As a fan of SWTOR, do you feel that your playstyle and games that suit you should be the only games being made?"

That's the attitude of SWTOR fanboys, who don't realize that their fun comes (indirectly) at the expense of others, and then wonder why those others are flaming their game on the forums.

Boo.  I am a fan of SWTOR but there should be and are lots of other types of games.   Who ever said there should only be themeparks?  Seriously?  Did I miss some comment somewhere?  I'm serious: when did anyone say this?  If you think some comments infer this then you may be right but you may also be wrong.  Your line of thinking stresses me out a bit because it's so linear and black and white.  My advice is to just be patient and see if a game you like gets developed.  To say that the success of one format precludes all other formats is a near-conspiracy theory that, even when shown evidence to the contrary, will always be able to survive based on this kind of thinking.  Companies and investors do their own thing and just because I like a particular product doesn't make me a dipshit enemy of yours who feels only one type of MMO should exist.  It's so offensive to even take such a comment at face value.  Surely you meant it just for shock and awe?  

Edit: Pretty hilarious grammar error

Originally posted by Beezerbeez

Originally posted by Strayfe

Originally posted by bossalinie
"Rise up everyone and quit playing what you enjoy and what fits you to save me..."

Am I doing it right?

I didn't say quit playing it.  I am not so naive that I believe anyone will magically wake up and change their opinion.  Instead, I made this post to get fans of SWTOR to explain to me one thing, and one thing only.

"As a fan of SWTOR, do you feel that your playstyle and games that suit you should be the only games being made?"

That's the attitude of SWTOR fanboys, who don't realize that their fun comes (indirectly) at the expense of others, and then wonder why those others are flaming their game on the forums.

Boo.  I am a fan of SWTOR but there should be and are lots of other types of games.   Who ever said there should only be themeparks?  Seriously?  Did I miss some comment somewhere?  I'm serious: when did anyone say this?

I also await the proof of the vast majority of fans for this game saying that their playstyle should be the only one being made. I'm not holding my breath on it, because it doesn't exist. It was a figment of the OP's imagination.

It's not bad for the industry [if] it's successful.

Originally posted by ktanner3

Originally posted by Beezerbeez

Originally posted by Strayfe

Originally posted by bossalinie
"Rise up everyone and quit playing what you enjoy and what fits you to save me..."

Am I doing it right?

I didn't say quit playing it.  I am not so naive that I believe anyone will magically wake up and change their opinion.  Instead, I made this post to get fans of SWTOR to explain to me one thing, and one thing only.

"As a fan of SWTOR, do you feel that your playstyle and games that suit you should be the only games being made?"

That's the attitude of SWTOR fanboys, who don't realize that their fun comes (indirectly) at the expense of others, and then wonder why those others are flaming their game on the forums.

Boo.  I am a fan of SWTOR but there should be and are lots of other types of games.   Who ever said there should only be themeparks?  Seriously?  Did I miss some comment somewhere?  I'm serious: when did anyone say this?

I also await the proof of the vast majority of fans for this game saying that their playstyle should be the only one being made. I'm not holding my breath on it, because it doesn't exist. It was a figment of the OP's imagination.

Ya, it goes back to that thread from last week when the guy complained that those of us that love themeparks have destroyed his beloved genre. Now they're projecting their hate for our playstyle over to us.

I don't see that door swinging both ways, but apparently some do.

Originally posted by Strayfe

With the quarterly report released, and indicating 1.7 million active subscribers, I just have to sit here and shake my head.  Whether or not the numbers are true, obviously the perception of investors is that they are.  This is a terrible sign for the MMORPG industry, because it means that those with the money are going to look at the market and see that the three most profitable games right now are WoW, SWTOR and RIFT.

In any industry, no matter what it is or whom it caters to, as consumers, we should be encouraging CHOICES AND VARIETY.  The problem with the 'hater' vs 'fanboy' debacle is that fanboys tend to look at it from a selfish perspective.  THEY are having fun, so consequently the game is great, and they wonder why everyone can't, or does not want to see how great the game is.  Meanwhile, the haters are looking at it from a broader perspective of what a successful SWTOR means.

This means essentially that the next five years will be the same as the previous five years.  The only thing we are going to see is more homogenized, linear themepark games.  SWTOR needed to fail to send a message to the industry, and apparently it hasn't.  When we needed to speak with our wallets, we did, but we sent the wrong message. 

We told the games industry to keep making big budget, linear themepark games.  We told the people with money loud and clear that what we all want is another clone of World of Warcraft.  We don't want complexity, depth, worldbuilding, social tools, meaningful interactions, group content or any of the staples that SHOULD define the genre, but no longer do.  We have told the industry to continue mass producing the exact same thing, over and over again, ad nauseam.  We have told them that our words mean nothing, and that, for all the complaining we may do, we really do enjoy being handheld through the entire game.

A failure of a massive title such as SWTOR could only have been good for the industry.  WoW is still there as a shining example of what an MMORPG can aspire to be, however, investors would have finally seen that the way to riches as it were, is not through continuing to copy WoW, but by finding a formula that works BETTER than WoW.  We have discouraged innovation and choice.

I want all fanboys and lovers of SWTOR to explain something to me in this thread.  If you are enjoying SWTOR, and you can understand the concepts I'm expressing, please look at this analogy.

Let's say you have a rather big city.  Once upon a time this city had no fast food industry at all.  One day someone opened a hot dog stand, and it caught on.  Many people began eating hot dogs and enjoying them.  One day, someone opened a hamburger stand named McDonalds.  People liked the hamburgers from McDonalds even better than the hot dogs.  They quit buying hot dogs from the hot dog vendors and gradually all the major hot dog places closed down, or ceased to be nearly as profitable as the hamburger places.  The McDonalds became so huge and so profitable that other restauranteers decided to go into the fast food industry to make their own fast food.  They look at the market trends and see that everyone LOVES McDonalds, so they keep trying to create hamburgers.  They all open their own hamburger place.  None of them does as good as McDonalds, but they do far better than the hot dog stands were doing.  This repeats for several years.

Meanwhile, you have a sizable group of people who miss eating hot dogs.  Their only options for hot dogs are poor, run down places with cockroaches in the kitchen.  There is maybe one good hot dog place in the entire city.  They tried hamburgers, but they just don't care for them as much as they do hot dogs.  They continue to wait for another new place with tasty new hot dogs to open, but it never does, because investors can make so much more money opening hamburger stands.

Now, let me ask you this.  As a lover of hamburgers.  As a lover of WoW/SWTOR and linear, by the book theme park games, do you believe it is fair that you have dozens of games that suit your playstyle, while the hot dog lovers, the sandbox/social/group content players have only one (that isn't a buggy awful mess)?  Do you truly believe that the industry is better served by saturation of one product over another, or do you believe as all consumers SHOULD that choice and variety can only be good for the gaming industry, and we don't have those anymore?

Let me clue you in a little bit.  The average 'hater' doesn't hate theme park games.  The average hater is SICK AND TIRED of them.  We want choice.  We want to play something else once in awhile, something different yet still AAA and high quality.  That is why we remain vocal on message boards such as these, it's why we insinuate ourselves in the game forums and, as all fanboys say: "complain about a game we don't even play".  It's because we have no other options.  Our choices have been taken away from us.

A successful SWTOR again destroys any hope on the horizon of seeing something new, because once again, investors will see that the way to money is by continuing to open hamburger stands.  Us hot dog fans will continue to be disappointed for years to come.

But you know the worst part?

Investors will continue to fail to realize that they could be making more money with something new.  Just like somebody once had the temerity to create a hamburger stand when everyone loved hot dogs, they became successful.  Nobody will take that plunge anymore.

Nobody will create tacos, or seafood, or chinese takeout.  Only hamburgers.  And it is SOLELY because of the selfishness of the fanboys, who cannot concede even for a moment that they DO have options for their playstyle, and that it is high time other people in the city of Progress had a turn at something shiny, tasty and new.

So yes, haters are gonna hate.  Because the MMORPG industry has proven to be the only industry where consumers seem to defy logic by choosing to reject the opportuntiy for variety and choices, and instead imbracing the factory-assembled 'checklist of fun' that is being conveyed out the door again and again.

Unacceptable.

 

Firstly I believe your logic is terribly flawed and selfish . This reads more like a disenchanted child stamping there feet and screaming that they aren't getting thier way or what they want. The truth however disconcerting and unpleasant is that the market produces and sells what the majority of people want or like. If you don't fall in that majority, you do have options . 

1. Not play  ( you've probably canceled your sub , if you haven't then you're as much a problem as the Dev's you rage against )
2. Play another game. ( although you'd you have us believe that they are rotted ancient p.o.s games according to your analogy )
3. Fund your own game and develop it according to your beliefs/theories and desires. ( this is after all a free market ? )

 The above are all valid options , The apparent ( and I use the term apparent success of this game , because it's to early to honestly call it one ) success of SW:ToR is due in large part to one factor more then any other . It's Star Wars , and for no other reason people will be drawn to it to try it. If were any other IP , it would not have been successful on this scale. Look at STO , which has many similarities , less content and is just a very poorly done version comparitively speaking . Star Trek while popular doesn't  approach the level of exposure that Lucas has built for Star Wars.

Also keep in mind that the Dev was the creator and and designer of KoTOR , and this is an extension of that experience.  That experience is highly obvious and evident.

Also keep in mind that present day MMO's all look to the future. ( WoW is a very different game now then from it's original release design and intent , the game has evolved . Not necessarily for the better , but to accomadate the market and the markets desires and expectations . Is it better , it's a matter of opinion . Mine is no , but that's mine )  Especially the last 4 years. Gaming sales numbers are dominated by console numbers for the most part . With a new generation of consoles expected from both Sony and M$ in the next couple of years , I would not be surprised that these games would be compatible on those systems . Hence the design philosophy and restrictions .

While I'm not a supporter of these designs and game play by any extent , I also do understand that everything has a cycle and certain things in fashion now , will be dropped in the future and sometimes the old, becomes fashionable. I also believe that evolution in the console industry will contribute to improvement in the MMO genre design and gameplay . We are currently in a cycle that is tied to the current generation of console player and his/her experience and preferences. My preferences lay with the previous generations experiencespreferences. The golden age if you want . 

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Gylfi

When was the last time you said proudly to a girl you just met at the bar "i play videogames!"

Would never do it in a million years. If they eventually find out then fine. ; )

I am a gamer, and seeing as I am not a bar hopper, I have no problem mentioning it to the waitresses at the local resturant   when I pick up a new title. Heck sometimes I get a club sandwich for a late night snack if I know I am gonna put in a major jam session, and when ordering one the other night, the one waitress labeled the box "Evan's late night snack".

Some really nice women work there. I am always discussing games/movies/kids/life as we know it everytime I am waiting on my take out order. It is the same for any business I frequent....they know I am a gamer.  I cerntainly dont go out of my way to appear to be something I am not.

What I would never do, nor admit to it if I did would be to  own up to a habit of bitching about a video game daily, on a message board, for months on end.  What game you are playing can make for some general conversation.  I wouldnt imagine those that have been complaing about things like TOR, or the changing of SWG, would ever do so in public. That is along the lines of Jerry Springer material if ya ask me.

Originally posted by Creslin321

If SWTOR still has 1.7 million subscribers in July, then call me. 

Hehe. 

I wonder what's going to happen to all the hataz if SWTOR has 2m subs in July, then eventually up to maybe around 3 milion for a few years?  Will their tiny minds be able to handle it?  Won't they just explode? :)

My prediction since beta late 2010 is that this is going to easily be the second biggest "proper" Western MMO.  Nothing can possibly catch WoW at this point, and even in decline it's still a monster.  But I think SWTOR will perform very well.

I'm enjoying the heck out of it, anyway, especially since ability delay is now fixed for me.  The forum entertainment is just icing on the cake.

Funnily enough though, in game, I very rarely hear unhappy folks.  The atmosphere in-game (at least on Lord Calypho) is that of a happily humming MMO.  People asking questions, answering, the occasional bit of shit-shooting, calls for groups, calls for members, etc.  And, again, my subjective estimate is that numbers have actually gone slightly up.  And the later levels are starting to fill in a bit too (Alderaan which a few weeks ago was the cut-off point from "lots of people teaming" to "not enough people on server to find teams".  Now Alderaan is filling up and that cut-off point seems to be more like Balmorra.

No, this game is going to be good for the industry, like WoW was - it will reassure investors that MMO are worth investing in, and more people wlil make more MMOs, some of which are likely to be better than anything we've seen so far, or at the very least good in parts (and contributing to a market where there's something for everyone).

I think the surprising effect SWTOR is going to have on the industry is raising the bar for quest delivery in subsequent MMOs, as, a few years down the line, SWTOR fans will be looking for another MMO, and will no doubt haunt forums where they piss and moan about how the latest hype doesn't have any goddamn voice-acting!!!

I am allowed to play and enjoy games like SWTOR and WoW if I so desire.

I am also allowed to play and enjoy sandboxy-world-creating games if I so desire (if there were more).

It's not really that difficult.

GW2 is breaking away from the mold.  Some may say TSW is as well, I don't know enough about it to judge.  Titan is apparently going to offer something quite different from WOW.

But like it or not, WOW set the precedent for a massively successful theme park MMO.  Many companies will follow that model until it dries up.  SWTOR failing wouldn't have changed that, because the message would simply be not to release a subscription MMO that isn't ready to be released.

I hate the fact that some of my all time favorite TV shows got cancelled while crap shows get high ratings and continue forever.  It's all about what is popular.  Majority rules.