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News & Features Discussion  » General: MMO Growing Pains

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98 posts found
  Valgar1

Novice Member

Joined: 8/25/07
Posts: 333

2/01/12 3:14:49 PM#41

Nice article,

Until we have a developer care more about the game there making then the money they can make ,they will all play it safe. Simple as that.

 

WoW showed them billions of $$$, now thats what they want.

  Kiljaedenas

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/29/11
Posts: 468

To err is human, but to really f*ck things up you need a computer.

2/01/12 3:21:26 PM#42

Originally posted by WhiteLantern




Originally posted by Kiljaedenas










Originally posted by maplestone
























Originally posted by Jowen

















Hi. I'm an EVE'r. Dunno what you're talking about.















































 
















Mission, mission, mission, mission, mission, "epic story arc!"
















( it's structured a little differently, but it's there )























 








Yes, it's there, but dude...that's maybe 10% of the game content at best. If that's all you think Eve is, you didn't put any kind of effort into discovering the deeper aspects of it.











 




But that's not different than those that say WoW and all current themeparks are nothing more than lobby-based instance-grinders because that is how people use them?





 


Actually there is a major difference. With the predictable, boring PvE grind, in Eve it's 10% of the game content. In the several dozen traditional MMOs that I have tried, WoW included, it's closer to 70%. The vast majority of the major core game content and story of those MMOs is based on that extremely repetitive, predictable and ultimately boring PvE grind, whether through missions or dungeon raids, endgame or otherwise. The remaining 30% (and that's being rather generous to the percentage, honestly) usually consists of short PvP rounds between limited quantities of players (the only time I've ever seen anything above 32 per side is in Requiem in one of the large battlefields, and that was still maybe a hundred per side at most), an extremely low percentage of the players going into an exclusively PvP server since most players don't want to risk their loot that they grinded for days to get, a basic resource extraction and crafting system (and compared to Eve, I mean BASIC, like maybe a fifth as complex at best) and perhaps some guild base management (if you're lucky).


That's it. MMO after MMO after MMO comes out, and it's the exact same percentage ratio if not worse. These days I don't even have to play one of them to pick out that ratio: all I have to do is look over the game's main webpage and perhaps a player wiki or two, and I can work out the ratio rather easily. If it's at least 50% PvE grind, I usually don't bother trying it anymore; I'd rather get a single player RPG which usually gives a more in-depth PvE experience (hello Dead Island :) ).


Where's the any key?

  monoth

Novice Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 553

2/01/12 3:50:08 PM#43

Why can't we have a themepark MMO inside of a sandbox MMO?


 


For me the player created cities, crafting system, housing and the freedom of big worlds in Star Wars Galaxies combined with the story telling and quests of SWTOR would be a perfect fit.


 


I still think hybrid Sandbox/Themepark MMO's are the future... 


  AdamTM

Novice Member

Joined: 5/05/05
Posts: 1395

I'M PUNCHING YOUR SALAD!!!!

2/01/12 3:51:02 PM#44

"First-person shooters are prime examples of this. Call of Duty. Battlefield. Counterstrike. DOOM. Stripped of their audio-visual finery and emptied of all their little details, they're all the same. Cut them open and you'll see Wolfenstein 3D written across the entrails."

Nice strawman bro.

I'm sure if you strip away all the "little details and visual finery" from DeusEx it would be just like Wolfenstein

 

dear god, get some competent writers mmorpg.com

  risenbones

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/09
Posts: 195

An opinion once stated is no longer humble.

2/01/12 3:58:48 PM#45

Can you guys get off the whole the investors are ruining the game development companies as thats pretty much BS.  I have looked at game company stock and not one of them pay out a dividend so the only way an investor makes money off of a publisher is when the share price goes up and they sell it.  The investors don't sit around and demand the company makes this game this way all investors really do is vote on who is on the board of directors and all the board of directors do is hire/fire the CEO and maybe a couple of his direct underlings.  They have nothing to do with the day to day running or dicision making process on what getts developed or anything like that.  All the investors actually want is for the share price to bounce around a bit so they can repeatadly buy low and sell high and make money trading the shares.  The share price is determined by how many of these traders are buying and how many of them are selling at any given moment.

 

Funnily enough the announcement that a company is making an MMO doesn't really affect the share price all that much the share price for an MMO producing company doesn't really move that much until beta is announced and then it jumps a bit until the MMO is launched and then the investors sell and the price drops again.  These investors don't care if the game makes WOW like money or not because quite simply it makes no difference to them because evan if it does well they don't get a dividend so any profit goes to the publisher not the investor.  The only thing investors worry about is the share price long as it's moving in any direction they can make money off it and thats all that matters.

The lesser of two evils is still evil.

There is nothing more dangerous than a true believer.

  avalon1000

Novice Member

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 731

2/01/12 4:10:00 PM#46

I suspect that eventually a great game will show up with some new and refreshing creativity (that works) and it may even catch us off guard (as in we did not see it coming).





 

  Lordjay

Novice Member

Joined: 11/16/11
Posts: 11

2/01/12 4:11:07 PM#47

The Secret World....Bottom line,Best MMO going to release in 2012,some people think GW2,but,NOPE,you watch how may people are tired of fantasy.


  PaybackXero

Novice Member

Joined: 8/22/09
Posts: 34

2/01/12 4:30:44 PM#48







Originally posted by Kiljaedenas






















Originally posted by maplestone


















































Originally posted by Jowen



































Hi. I'm an EVE'r. Dunno what you're talking about.































































































 
































Mission, mission, mission, mission, mission, "epic story arc!"
































( it's structured a little differently, but it's there )















































 
















Yes, it's there, but dude...that's maybe 10% of the game content at best. If that's all you think Eve is, you didn't put any kind of effort into discovering the deeper aspects of it.























 








EVE would actually be better if it was mission, mission, mission, mission, epic story arc. Instead, it's "Wait 10 years to get useful skills, have fun not being able to speed up the process", "Yay, mining for 5 hours!", and "Oh fun, just lost my ship"








I'm all for open-world MMO's with the freedom that EVE has, but when you have people grouping together to MINE FOR 5 HOURS, then your game has taken a terrible, disturbing turn. (And consequences for losing. Those suck too. RL is bad enough, I'm not looking to get punished for failing in-game as well.)








I guess what I'd want is EVE with no corp alliances, no corps larger than 50 or so members, no penalties for dying, auto-mining and a massive reduction in cost for items. I'm looking for an economy more WoW like - farm minerals for 1 day, earn enough gold for the rest of the year. But that's my two cents on EVE.





Edit: 


Forgot my biggest complaint there at the end. No way will I ever play a game with the leveling system like EVE's. I'm not interested in anything but end game and exploration. I've GOT to be able to max my character out within a month max for me to even consider a game. Only wish I had known EVE's system before subbing that one month. 


 


So yeah, full ability for all ships and the cash to buy em within a month, or the game is pointless to me.

  GTwander

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/09
Posts: 6125

LARPer Hunter

2/01/12 4:41:14 PM#49

The problem is risk... because nobody fronting the financial end is willing to take one.




Ironcially, though, these days there is nothing more risky than developing a 'spiritual successor' to the dreaded WoW - you simply cannot win that battle, but everyone seems determined to hop on the wagon like this was the music industry or something. Fads don't work here, at least not for long... and since it takes years to make the damned things, the release will *always* be late for catching another product's hype.



 

Writer / Musician / Game Designer

Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  Teh_Axi

Novice Member

Joined: 9/21/08
Posts: 405

2/01/12 4:46:20 PM#50

I'd say its because most MMOs are half finished and badly designed. Many of them should have just been single player games but companies know they can market them as an MMO and squeeze a little more cash out of players.




Rift pretty much proves there is room for games that follow in the themepark style. EVE proves there's room for other styles of MMOs, there just needs to be more that are of good quality actually made.




Honestly I think players need to stop making excuses for developers.





 

  Mordred1

Novice Member

Joined: 5/28/11
Posts: 80

2/01/12 5:24:48 PM#51

"it's hard to deny the fact that a majority of fantasy MMOs out there are little more than World of Warcraft with a different coat of paint."


 


Funny how you guys don't say this when reviewing every WoW clone. Instead the reviewer says "mmo x doesn't reinvent the wheel but does a good job at what it proposes" and slap a "very good" score. 


If a game is unoriginal, it should be criticized for that. It doesn't matter if in the mmo genre things change slowly. Hell, SWTOR got an 8 score on innovation! 


Speaking of SWTOR when reading the review I got the feeling the journalist was  conformed by the fact that it will take a long time to see any innovation on the genre so since nothing better is on the horizon that game should have a good score overall.


If the ones entitled to criticize a product give it a free pass, how the genre will ever change? Something that was very good 8 years ago is not that good today.


 


Too late now to write an article like this. Next time try saying games are unoriginal in their reviews.


 


 


  Matticus75

Novice Member

Joined: 10/18/05
Posts: 393

2/01/12 5:31:29 PM#52

To be honest I dont really mind a WoW clone, or even a hybird WoW clone (why not a FPS/Sandbox/Thempark combo)

 


But the thing is the WoW clones are all low tech, buggy, half made and still the same price!


 


So most of the WoW clones are fails, Why make a WoW clone? because WoW is a good "business formula" and most companies cant even do them right.



 


The question is "What do you think? Is it possible for us to grow even further or will World of Warcraft forever set the standard for our genre?"





 


My answer unfortunately is the MMO market has created condtions as such, to really change its standards would be for people to stop buying them.......




:(






I seriously believe the tech is their to make some really good MMOS



 

  red_cruiser

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/07
Posts: 473

2/01/12 5:45:57 PM#53

Stale describes SWTOR perfectly.  All the upcoming MMO releases like GW2, TERA, The Secret World, Wildstar are actually offering new gameplay innovations and things that will set their game apart. 




BioWare was the only company myopic enough to say "Hey, we'll just crudely mash together WoW's theme park with (a really crappy version of) BioWare's storytelling and then make sure everyone has a Warhammer knockback/stun/root/snare combination and punt it out the door and rely solely on our company name and our IP as our main selling points!".





 

  red_cruiser

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/07
Posts: 473

2/01/12 5:49:59 PM#54

Originally posted by Mordred1

"it's hard to deny the fact that a majority of fantasy MMOs out there are little more than World of Warcraft with a different coat of paint."




 




Funny how you guys don't say this when reviewing every WoW clone. Instead the reviewer says "mmo x doesn't reinvent the wheel but does a good job at what it proposes" and slap a "very good" score. 




If a game is unoriginal, it should be criticized for that. It doesn't matter if in the mmo genre things change slowly. Hell, SWTOR got an 8 score on innovation! 




Speaking of SWTOR when reading the review I got the feeling the journalist was  conformed by the fact that it will take a long time to see any innovation on the genre so since nothing better is on the horizon that game should have a good score overall.




If the ones entitled to criticize a product give it a free pass, how the genre will ever change? Something that was very good 8 years ago is not that good today.




 




Too late now to write an article like this. Next time try saying games are unoriginal in their reviews.




 




 





 


This is a great post.  What is actually the point of this article if you don't even have the balls to call a spade a spade in the game's review? 


  Cembrye

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/01/12
Posts: 54

2/01/12 6:03:33 PM#55

I agree the answer is staring us in the mirror.  But  I would say player comfort with familiar mechanics is only one side of the coin.  The other is that MMORPG companies are terrified of the consequences of greater player freedom.


And with good reason...


To put it bluntly, Internet dirtbags have shown, in game after game since UO, that they will any sliver of freedom they get for playstyles that drive off other customers.  Whether it is griefing, manipulating game mechanics for purposes other than intended, or good old hacks, dupes and exploits, there is enough of said population of Internet dirtbags to ensure that dreams of games with player freedom will remain just that - dreams. 


I wish I could say otherwise.  But until they invent some way to change human nature, or you have a MMORPG run by a eccentric tycoon that doesn't care after profits or retaining customers, we will end up with Theme Parks.  


  GTwander

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/09
Posts: 6125

LARPer Hunter

2/01/12 6:05:30 PM#56
Originally posted by Cembrye

I wish I could say otherwise.  But until they invent some way to change human nature, or you have a MMORPG run by a eccentric tycoon that doesn't care after profits or retaining customers, we will end up with Theme Parks.  

I said it before, will say it again.

"I support chemical castration."

 

Maybe 80 years from now we can weed out the morons and prevent a real-life Idiocracy.

Writer / Musician / Game Designer

Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  TSWBETAROGS

Novice Member

Joined: 3/27/10
Posts: 200

2/01/12 6:05:37 PM#57

If you realy whant a new kind of mmorpg, check out TSW. There are alot new twist and best of all no elfs, dwarfs,  ore cartoon charracters. This is RL hardcore adventure, with all the stories we know from real lift with a nice twist to them. Sign upp for beta now, The game will be out in 2 months time (April 2012)


  Blackbrrd

Novice Member

Joined: 2/24/09
Posts: 812

2/01/12 6:29:23 PM#58

I have high hopes for The Secret world it really looks like a MMORPG with a twist. The twist being that it is partly a adventure game as well. In other words some quests have to be solved by pondering, not gear grinding. (You can probably google them if you like, the even added an ingame browser for you).


  Blindchance

Novice Member

Joined: 2/21/09
Posts: 1079

2/01/12 6:39:40 PM#59

I find it rather ironic and hipocritical that this article comes so close after MMORPG.com 9/10 review of SWTOR. I don't blame you, it seems to be a wildly spread disease between gaming journalists. Are you all so afraid to lose preferential treatment by gaming industry ?


 


MMORPG genre is not stale, it is rotten. Its rather sad that the only healty dose of innovation and originality has to be delievered by unexperienced and poorly financed / managed developers. Just imagine how games like Earthrise or Darkfall could shine with a real studio behind them.


  Comaf

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/13/10
Posts: 1144

I want an mmorpg where pvp matters, my enemies are not my race or class, and community matters.

2/01/12 6:47:06 PM#60

The article reflects a lack of completely thinking outside of the box.  The concept of a fantasy elves included mmorpg is not stale because it has rarely been done.  Any mmo without housing and instanced pvp is a MMOVG massively multi player video game - it's not an mmorpg because as you full well know, cosmetic races and mirrored classes do not mimic RPG whatsoever. Broken lore in RIft with mercenaries and tauren paladins along with necromancers running with all pets out through Cimmeria is bs, or copy paste sith v jedi playing Huttball I mean c'mon.

 

So the real question isn't if it's all stale.  The real issue is where the heck have mmoRPGs gone?

 

1.  Dark Age of Camelot 2 ... Where is it?>

2.  Modern day version of Ultima?

3.  Everquest updated?

4.  Vanguard Saga of Heroes 2 or even 1.5?

 5. Asheron's Call?

Those are mmorpgs.  They have been buried and forgotten, replaced by video game theme park crap.

 

 So please do not complain about the stale factor of mmorpgs.  What you mean is that themepark mmoVGs are stale.  Yes - they are.  I am still waiting for an mmorpg however. 

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