Had the game been made back in 2005 when they first announced it.

I honestly think they did a lot of research on all the MMO's before they announced they were doing it, and then stopped.  It doesn't seem like they've taken into account what has worked in MMO's the past 7 years, and what hasn't. 

This is one of the major problems ( i can see) with working on an MMO, or any project with a long development/conceptual phase. Before you can start developing you need a concept, player trends during one period may be completely different by the end of the final conceptual period, meaning your concept is already outdated.

Keeping up with these trends is possible ( GW2) but i think they already had a plan to move away from the WOW model and expand (impressively) on their own design and concepts.

You aslo have to consider seamlessness and flow, the game has to tie togther, each facet should facilitate the next, which is already at ricky subject with TOR, it's not there, but much further in "mixing it up" they'd have a Frankenstein's monster on their hands, IMO anyway.

Originally posted by Distopia

This is one of the major problems ( i can see) with working on an MMO, or any project with a long development/conceptual phase. Before you can start developing you need a concept, player trends during one period may be completely different by the end of the final conceptual period, meaning your concept is already outdated.

Keeping up with these trends is possible ( GW2) but i think they already had a plan to move away from the WOW model and expand (impressively) on their own design and concepts.

You aslo have to consider seamlessness and flow, the game has to tie togther, each facet should facilitate the next, which is already at ricky subject with TOR, it's not there, but much further in "mixing it up" they'd have a Frankenstein's monster on their hands, IMO anyway.

 

I think the problem is that a lot of the team probably didn't play MMO's, and those who did, only played WoW.  And then stopped playing as WoW had to innovate a bit to keep their cherished spot.  Yes, I hate WoW, but they had to make their quests a bit more in-depth, reduce the emphasis on 40 man raids, diversify rewards, etc.

Originally posted by iceman00

Originally posted by Distopia

This is one of the major problems ( i can see) with working on an MMO, or any project with a long development/conceptual phase. Before you can start developing you need a concept, player trends during one period may be completely different by the end of the final conceptual period, meaning your concept is already outdated.

Keeping up with these trends is possible ( GW2) but i think they already had a plan to move away from the WOW model and expand (impressively) on their own design and concepts.

You aslo have to consider seamlessness and flow, the game has to tie togther, each facet should facilitate the next, which is already at ricky subject with TOR, it's not there, but much further in "mixing it up" they'd have a Frankenstein's monster on their hands, IMO anyway.

 

I think the problem is that a lot of the team probably didn't play MMO's, and those who did, only played WoW.  And then stopped playing as WoW had to innovate a bit to keep their cherished spot.  Yes, I hate WoW, but they had to make their quests a bit more in-depth, reduce the emphasis on 40 man raids, diversify rewards, etc.

I'd guess this is untrue, many of their devs are from older MMOs like DAOC, SWG, WAR, Shadowbane, etc, etc...

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by iceman00

Originally posted by Distopia

This is one of the major problems ( i can see) with working on an MMO, or any project with a long development/conceptual phase. Before you can start developing you need a concept, player trends during one period may be completely different by the end of the final conceptual period, meaning your concept is already outdated.

Keeping up with these trends is possible ( GW2) but i think they already had a plan to move away from the WOW model and expand (impressively) on their own design and concepts.

You aslo have to consider seamlessness and flow, the game has to tie togther, each facet should facilitate the next, which is already at ricky subject with TOR, it's not there, but much further in "mixing it up" they'd have a Frankenstein's monster on their hands, IMO anyway.

 

I think the problem is that a lot of the team probably didn't play MMO's, and those who did, only played WoW.  And then stopped playing as WoW had to innovate a bit to keep their cherished spot.  Yes, I hate WoW, but they had to make their quests a bit more in-depth, reduce the emphasis on 40 man raids, diversify rewards, etc.

I'd guess this is untrue, many of their devs are from older MMOs like DAOC, SWG, WAR, Shadowbane, etc, etc...

There's a difference between developing a game and actually playing it.  One of the classic rules of the MMO world:  players know their game better than the Devs.  A developer can code a system.  But they can't tell you if it actually works in the game.  Only a player can do that.

SWTOR was going to be a WOW killer.... and then it got high.

I'm still enjoying the game at a slow and steady pace, so regardless of what anyone else thinks, it is still the best MMORPG available today to me.

There is no excuse.

This is a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER ONLINE game. There is nothing massive about tiny raids, tiny groups, and instanced PvP.

They completely ignored the social realm. How on earth can you be a dev and not realize the importance of good virtual community. This replaced SOCIAL with STORY. Thus, we now have this Massive Co'op Game that people must pay monthly for.

SWTOR is the ultimate example of ADVERTISING & HYPE over GAMEPLAY & ORIGINALITY.

Originally posted by iceman00

Originally posted by Distopia

This is one of the major problems ( i can see) with working on an MMO, or any project with a long development/conceptual phase. Before you can start developing you need a concept, player trends during one period may be completely different by the end of the final conceptual period, meaning your concept is already outdated.

Keeping up with these trends is possible ( GW2) but i think they already had a plan to move away from the WOW model and expand (impressively) on their own design and concepts.

You aslo have to consider seamlessness and flow, the game has to tie togther, each facet should facilitate the next, which is already at ricky subject with TOR, it's not there, but much further in "mixing it up" they'd have a Frankenstein's monster on their hands, IMO anyway.

 

I think the problem is that a lot of the team probably didn't play MMO's, and those who did, only played WoW.  And then stopped playing as WoW had to innovate a bit to keep their cherished spot.  Yes, I hate WoW, but they had to make their quests a bit more in-depth, reduce the emphasis on 40 man raids, diversify rewards, etc.

you serious? Woah you are.

Originally posted by iceman00

There's a difference between developing a game and actually playing it.  One of the classic rules of the MMO world:  players know their game better than the Devs.  A developer can code a system.  But they can't tell you if it actually works in the game.  Only a player can do that.

To me the logical fallacy is that MMO devs by nature are not gamers, why would someone subject themselves to this line of work when there are easier, more rewarding jobs to be had for those individuals? It just wouldn't make sense.

Maybe you're talking about the suits? In that case I'd agree, they care about the business end, they're the ones deciding on focus testing, research, analysis, advertising,, etc...

Second what you just said would be akin to saying a musician couldn't tell a good musical score apart from a bad one, which is all kinds of wrong (in so many, many ways). There's a difference between knowing what's good, and what will have mass appeal.

You're forgetting devs are controlled by the corp, the corp decides what directions they can take, not the guys sitting down actually doing the work.

The problem is nobody has the stones to be original. A company with original ideas could spend 5 years on an MMO and it would still be fresh after dev time. It would be nice to see something besides a flock of, dare I type it? WOW clones. Anybody besides me think Titan will me miles away from WOW? If it is and it makes money you can expect 10 years of Titan clones to follow because originality has dried up.

Have the corporate leads really had the reigns of projects over the past 10 years or has that only changed after MMOs went mainstread with potential of huge profits?

Originally posted by iceman00

Originally posted by Distopia

[snip]

 

I think the problem is that a lot of the team probably didn't play MMO's, and those who did, only played WoW.  And then stopped playing as WoW had to innovate a bit to keep their cherished spot.  Yes, I hate WoW, but they had to make their quests a bit more in-depth, reduce the emphasis on 40 man raids, diversify rewards, etc.

have to completely disagree with you there i don't think a SINGLE person who developed this game has ever played anything other then SPRPG games, they didn't even bring in kids as experts on this one and it shows with what all they missed.

Originally posted by itgrowls

Originally posted by iceman00

Originally posted by Distopia

[snip]

 

I think the problem is that a lot of the team probably didn't play MMO's, and those who did, only played WoW.  And then stopped playing as WoW had to innovate a bit to keep their cherished spot.  Yes, I hate WoW, but they had to make their quests a bit more in-depth, reduce the emphasis on 40 man raids, diversify rewards, etc.

have to completely disagree with you there i don't think a SINGLE person who developed this game has ever played anything other then SPRPG games, they didn't even bring in kids as experts on this one and it shows with what all they missed.

LOL okay you got me there.

Originally posted by Rusty715

The problem is nobody has the stones to be original. A company with original ideas could spend 5 years on an MMO and it would still be fresh after dev time. It would be nice to see something besides a flock of, dare I type it? WOW clones. Anybody besides me think Titan will me miles away from WOW? If it is and it makes money you can expect 10 years of Titan clones to follow because originality has dried up.

Got three things to say to that Guild Wars 2, Archeage, and Wushu. Nothing like we've seen in the past. They are actively trying to break the mold and i will be right there with my dollar if they hold true to their designs. I'm excited.

Oh almost forgot, they do as devs have to take an active roll to see and pay attention to what other games are doing that are working WHILE they are developing I've noticed that Anet has done this twice now, said one thing then changed to a better plan after it was shown that something was working better in another community of gamers under a different title. So, it's not supposed to be just a "let's take a snapshot of how it is now" and not ever update that snapshot of what's happening after that snapshot. That's just not going to work with anything. That would be like taking a look at cars in the 1970's and spending ten years making a car only to find no one wants it because it doesn't have any of the features of the other modern day cars in the 1980's. 

If this is what they did it definitely shows.

You don't risk 200+ million dollar investment on something unproven, unless you have SO much money you can stand to take a bet on that 200 million.

TOR isn't a WoW killer, and no game will ever be because the only things killing WoW are

A) age

B) itself

The Western made AAA mega-budget Sandbox MMO is not happening people - better you start to accept it.

GW2 is the closest we are going to get for a long, long while.

However:

The Undead Labs L4 or whatever it is might just suprise us though, I'm waiting to see.

Of course, always the possibility EQNext or Titan will completely redefine the genre.

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by iceman00

There's a difference between developing a game and actually playing it.  One of the classic rules of the MMO world:  players know their game better than the Devs.  A developer can code a system.  But they can't tell you if it actually works in the game.  Only a player can do that.

To me the logical fallacy is that MMO devs by nature are not gamers, why would someone subject themselves to this line of work when there are easier, more rewarding jobs to be had for those individuals? It just wouldn't make sense.

Maybe you're talking about the suits? In that case I'd agree, they care about the business end, they're the ones deciding on focus testing, research, analysis, advertising,, etc...

Second what you just said would be akin to saying a musician couldn't tell a good musical score apart from a bad one, which is all kinds of wrong (in so many, many ways). There's a difference between knowing what's good, and what will have mass appeal.

You're forgetting devs are controlled by the corp, the corp decides what directions they can take, not the guys sitting down actually doing the work.

Simple.  A writer can recognize a great writing work.  But most the time, he is so busy writing it, he has others who aren't as involved in the process give criticism.  They see things he can't, because he is so invested in the project.

It isn't just "the suits."   Bioware has proven that in other markets, they can make something polished, and even bring a few fresh things to the table.  One of the main criticisms of this game so far is just the very poor design and thought process that went into things.

What you had was people who thought MMO's could be a cash cow, but really have no understanding of how an MMO becomes a cash cow when done properly.

Originally posted by BadSpock

Of course, always the possibility EQNext or Titan will completely redefine the genre.

Talking about a SOE and a Blizzard game, I'm afraid most of the "redefinition of the genre" may come in terms of unwelcomed features like major cash shops,  RMT-AHs and tons of pay-to-use-them gimmicks like smartphone apps and such.

Originally posted by BadSpock

You don't risk 200+ million dollar investment on something unproven, unless you have SO much money you can stand to take a bet on that 200 million.

TOR isn't a WoW killer, and no game will ever be because the only things killing WoW are

A) age

B) itself

The Western made AAA mega-budget Sandbox MMO is not happening people - better you start to accept it.

GW2 is the closest we are going to get for a long, long while.

However:

The Undead Labs L4 or whatever it is might just suprise us though, I'm waiting to see.

Of course, always the possibility EQNext or Titan will completely redefine the genre.

A game doesn't need to be a sandbox to catch my eyes.   The problem with investing that 200 million is they didn't follow a lot of the "time tested" things.  

You can't blame the suits for the debacle that was the 1.1 patch.

Originally posted by Distopia

This is one of the major problems ( i can see) with working on an MMO, or any project with a long development/conceptual phase. Before you can start developing you need a concept, player trends during one period may be completely different by the end of the final conceptual period, meaning your concept is already outdated.

I completely agree.

The only way for these games to actually be interesting is for the developer too follow their own vision.

This is an incredibly fickle market to make a game for TBH... I guess thats because it's internet based at it's core and trends in thought come and go quickly in this space, as we all know.

Keeping up with these trends is possible ( GW2) but i think they already had a plan to move away from the WOW model and expand (impressively) on their own design and concepts.

I think Anet have always been about their own vision, which maybe explains why GW2 looks like a modern take on the genre rather then a regurgitated mess.