You know the irony, I can remember more details about EQ dungeons than i can in any of the instances in the current MMO's.  It wasn't just blast your way through the dugeons spells blazing, you had to be careful not to pull strays, watch out for roamers and adds, all while managing your resources such as mana (you could quickly burn down a mob but then you had downtime and couldn't get out of combat to drink a drink and be back to full in 10 seconds).

You talk about variety in gameplay, almost every dungeon that has come out lately in current MMO's is a straight path from start to end. No winding coredors that can get you lost, no secrets, no incentive to explore in essence they really arent dungeons they would be more aptly named "Guantlets" (not to be confused with the old school game) where you run from one end to another and hope to survive to the end to get a prize.

In the newer MMO's you are just shuttled from one area to another with quests most people don't even look around them they just run towards where there arrow is pointing them. Also whats the point in quests if all you do (or rather what most people do) is just look at the objective without even caring about the lore. No incentive to break the mold just one quest area to another.

I dunno i call that less variety in gameplay than I used to get from games like EQ.

This is exactly what my point is.  Now if you want to call that endless mob grinding so be it, but it had far more thought, risk, and freedom, then anything that has been released today.   I suppose though it doesn't really matter though, as there are those of us who see it this way, and think that this is the way it should be done, and then their are those who love being shuttled and hand-holded.  I personally still feel SWTOR limits these freedoms, and basically forces you down a path that you really can't escape or leave.

Originally posted by OberanMiM

You know the irony, I can remember more details about EQ dungeons than i can in any of the instances in the current MMO's.  It wasn't just blast your way through the dugeons spells blazing, you had to be careful not to pull strays, watch out for roamers and adds, all while managing your resources such as mana (you could quickly burn down a mob but then you had downtime and couldn't get out of combat to drink a drink and be back to full in 10 seconds).

You talk about variety in gameplay, almost every dungeon that has come out lately in current MMO's is a straight path from start to end. No winding coredors that can get you lost, no secrets, no incentive to explore in essence they really arent dungeons they would be more aptly named "Guantlets" (not to be confused with the old school game) where you run from one end to another and hope to survive to the end to get a prize.

In the newer MMO's you are just shuttled from one area to another with quests most people don't even look around them they just run towards where there arrow is pointing them. Also whats the point in quests if all you do (or rather what most people do) is just look at the objective without even caring about the lore. No incentive to break the mold just one quest area to another.

I dunno i call that less variety in gameplay than I used to get from games like EQ.

Um, but you have to be careful not to pull strays and watch for roamers/adds in modern dungeon/raids too.

So that leaves mazelike dungeons and attrition-based gameplay as the two factors you've brought up.

Mazelike dungeons in AO, DAOC, and AC1 didn't vary gameplay in my experience.  You still fought the same bland strategy-less mobs around each bend, but now you did it in a maze.  Meanwhile in the linear dungeons of WOW the fights themselves are varied due to boss abilities (and in some cases trash abilities.)  So actual variety, not just non-variety masquerading inside a maze.

Attrition-based gameplay is actually part of why that's true.  In attrition-based gameplay, each fight wears down your resources little by little.  This means each fight tends to be flat and shallow (because they're not tightly-balanced to put you near-death each fight, only to safely widdle you down.)

Originally posted by Zorgo

I can imagine a scenario where a game about 'the journey' is released, and the boards light up with 'xp is slow to hide thin content' -or- 'xp is slow so they can milk your sub for as long as possible to hit max'.

I remember these complaints from EQ anyway, and I'd imagine history would repeat itself.

In addition, I'm not sure devs consciously are trying to push you to an endgame they don't really have at release. If devs really thought all we wanted was end game, they'd focus on developing endgame and thin out the journey.

Honestly, I think they simply have miscalculated. It doesn't make sense to have a fast xp curve in these recently released games whenthere is no end game. I can't discribe it as anything other than an out and out mistake.

Of course, to hit the perfect balance between lengthening the levelling process while not making it seem that the game is full of timesinks toward that aim, well.....let's just say it hasn't happened often in mmo history, and the ones that did have it, only held it temporarily (EQ/WoW for ex.).

I think all in all, SWTOR is a decently paced game, and it seems that there is enough to explore and do to tied me over until the content is ahead of me, and if not, there are plenty of fun mmo's out there right now I can choose from.

Which, in the end is still a better option to have than the old days. Now, at least when we are waiting for new content, there is something else to play.

It is really simple... There has to be enough content to consume at the current XP rate where you don't run out when leveling and there are paths you did not take which you can take with an alt.

I mean its basic stuff. Even as the OP said WoW at release was faster than eq/eq2 at release but not that much faster.. Compared to today ? Its rediculous what these companies are doing..

Something keeps telling me that designs went this way to appease some stastistic where more poeple quit in the first X levels or something... so idea being get them past those levels and they will stay longer...

I don't of course know this for fact.. it is only a hunch and i hear developers talk about "quitting before level X" quite often.

That said, I have never seen an industry where nore companies tend to make really poor and obvious design decisions in games and truly do hurt their numbers over time...

Here's why SWTOR is getting the whip OP:  It was Bioware, with EA's money, and it created such a crazy hype machine through target marketing and gameplay snipips, using word like "The most epic feeling MMO to date" and "The game will change how people view MMO's". 

They destroyed themselves.  You hype the game up that much through marketing and key words, you better be prepared to suffer the consequences of your actions.  They are only reaping what they sowed man.

As for blaming Trion, a startup company who invested all their cash ($50 mill I believe) into their game and advertised their RIFTing events and mutliple soul classes (which they delivered very well on both), gets praised.  Yes they recieved critisism, but they constatnly communicate with the forum community and push out fixes and updates unlike any other MMO company to date.  They didn't have he IP,  they didn't have the previous gamer types (Diablo 2 for Blizz, KoToR for Bio), and they had no reputation.

This is what separates the two companies, and why blame is placed on one more than the other even though they follow similiar design decisions.

Originally posted by aionix

Here's why SWTOR is getting the whip OP:  It was Bioware, with EA's money, and it created such a crazy hype machine through target marketing and gameplay snipips, using word like "The most epic feeling MMO to date" and "The game will change how people view MMO's". 

They destroyed themselves.  You hype the game up that much through marketing and key words, you better be prepared to suffer the consequences of your actions.  They are only reaping what they sowed man.

As for blaming Trion, a startup company who invested all their cash ($50 mill I believe) into their game and advertised their RIFTing events and mutliple soul classes (which they delivered very well on both), gets praised.  Yes they recieved critisism, but they constatnly communicate with the forum community and push out fixes and updates unlike any other MMO company to date.  They didn't have he IP,  they didn't have the previous gamer types (Diablo 2 for Blizz, KoToR for Bio), and they had no reputation.

This is what separates the two companies, and why blame is placed on one more than the other even though they follow similiar design decisions.

+1 Well said