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News & Features Discussion  » General: Content Locusts Killed My MMO

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  maskedweasel

Tipster

Joined: 9/24/07
Posts: 7285

"Kids, try imagining how far the universe extends! Keep thinking about it until you go insane."

1/27/12 11:39:53 AM#121
Originally posted by Teala

Games need to focus on game play and not gear and levels.    This ideal that you havbe to grind out levels to get to the end game and then grind to get two and three and even four sets of gear is beyond absurd - in fact there is no word currrently in use today that can discribe the stupidity of this design model.

A game should start from day one and never end.   There is no "end game" because there is no way to win.  Not in an MMORPG.

Wanna know why people keep playing games like WOW?  Because now they are invested in their characters.   Doesn't matter if game X comes out and is the new shiney.   They'll go play it, max level, see the game is no better than WoW(most cases worse than WoW), then go right back to WoW because WoW is the better game and they have invested time into it and they have community there.  If the right game came along, they'd ditch WoW and stay with the new game.

Something I have said in my blog is we need games that focus on building communities using game play mechanics to do it.   Focus on game play and players will stay.   What reason is there for someone to stay in a game like SWTOR or Rift?  What can the players latch onto inside the game itself that will help them build a community?  There is not even faction pride in SWTOR.   Atleast WoW has that.   Bioware doesn't even use that as a means to tie the players together.  

These genre needs a wake up call.  

Games do not need to be grindy, they do not need levels, nor do they need to use gear as carrots on a stick to keep people playing.   They just need better game play to keep people playing.

I don't always agree with you Teala, but I do agree that there should be games LIKE that.  I don't think EVERY game should be like that.  

 

To answer your question about SWTOR or RIFT, the only reason for someone to stay is if they enjoy the game, nothing more.

 

I want a game like you describe Teala,  hell I'll take 10 games like you describe,  but just as other genres have different types of game styles I don't think the traditional style isn't "fun".... I just think its been overplayed.

"Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"


  darkhalf357x

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/25/12
Posts: 1128

I'm only playing the role chosen for me. Who you supposed to be?

1/27/12 11:40:04 AM#122

Originally posted by plescure

Really good article. Completely agree. i end up demotivated before i even start playing a lot of the new MMO's for this exact reason. MMO's used to about the journey not the destination.




 




And ofc its all WOW's fault. They were  the 1st MMO's to change to this ultra fast leveling systme and because there so successful most of the other MMO's followed. Even my beloved EQ2 which IMO is one of the best leveling journeys out there, you can now get to max lvl in 2days!!




Makes me a sad little panda





 


Difference is, in EQ2 you can turn your XP OFF and simply not level -- if you are interested in enjoying the content.  Again choice is what is needed so those that want lvl50 in 3 days can without interfering with those who want to take a long as possible.


  MMOGamer71

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/12/07
Posts: 1649

1/27/12 11:47:58 AM#123
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by nerovipus32

Blaming the players for crappy game design is a sign of desperation.

So is blaming developers en masse for a single game that just wasn't designed solely for you.

 

Win !!!

Plenty of games that were not for me, I moved on and didn't trash them, we are lucky to have so many MMO's out .

  aSynchro

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/13/11
Posts: 154

1/27/12 11:49:02 AM#124

I didn't bought SWTOR and i'm glad i choose so... but i'm having a great time reading about it ^ ^


And the more i read, the more it seems obvious that Bioware doesn't have a clue about MMORPG. They didn't think for a sec about the diff between MMORPG and others games, about why WoW players are waiting for something else while keeping playing, about themepark, about burnout phase, about what it means to keep thousand of players occupied for months etc. etc.


As pure newcomers, it seems they just decide to pickup this genre, copy EQ/WoW with the Star Wars skin, add their storytelling and some candy (companions, space minigame etc.) and that's it.


I don't know if ArenaNet and Funcom's next games will be succesfull but at least, they INVESTIGATE ! They asked themself: "what are MMORPG big problems (because the genre have big problems) and how can we solve them ?" 


It's amazing that for each problem in SWTOR that Bioware never thought about, there's an answer in GW2 or TSW:


_ PvP is not balanced in SWTOR ?  GW2 and TSW will have 3 factions.


_ Leveling is too fast/easy in SWTOR ? TSW doesn't have levels and GW2 doesn't have endgame !


_ SWTOR has the same "kill 10 x" quests ? TSW will have puzzles that requiere wikipedia.


_ SWTOR's world is static, lifeless and instanced ? in GW2  hundred of players can join in the world to fight big mobs (don't know about TSW yet).


_ SWTOR's "choices" have no consequence ? GW2 will have dynamic events that change a zone for days, for everyone !


etc etc.


 


td/dr ; SWTOR is everything MMORPG shouldn't be. GW2/TSW will bring (some) answers to burnout syndrome.


  sycofiend

Novice Member

Joined: 4/07/11
Posts: 128

1/27/12 11:51:25 AM#125



Originally posted by DukeDu



Thats why korean mmo are still the best.











 




no .. the korean mmo's lack ANY content to go with the leveing .. it's just sit in the same place and kill xbillion rats.




grind for the sake of grind isn't fun either.


 





 

  JimyHumuHumu

Novice Member

Joined: 5/02/07
Posts: 252

1/27/12 11:52:33 AM#126

 Yes, imo, it was much much better when every new piece of gear actually meant something. So why doesnt it matter anymore? Because you outlevel 99% of your gear 20 mins after you get it, and thats how it is all the way to end game. Its not players who are guilty for that, its devs, mind you. If they werent throwing 900 pieces of slightly better gear upon us, 8 times per level, it would still feel like acomplisment, rather than 'yay i just got a 2% better piece of crap which im gonna use for next 4,5 quests' feeling we have now.


 


Leveling speed does matter too, but not that much compared to gazillion eq pieces we are being "awarded" for killing 10 rats every 5 minutes. It makes all but end game gear obsolete, thus making the rest of the game quite obsolete too, considering how getting new pieces of gear is one of the most motivating points for many people.


 


it all makes the leveling aspect less fun, which also makes peoeple wanting to rush thru content so they can finally get somethig that they wont outlevel in next 30 mins.


You know, in old games every piece of gear had its place in the world, even when you get something better, there was ALWAYS another person willing to keep on using that item after you are done with it. Now all we have is thousands of vendor crap that doesnt last more than one playing session, and you wonder why people dont actually feel like they accomplished something when they get new piece of (usually) quest gear.


 


@teala, even if the gear wouldnt mean that much (aka have little impact on your stats and pvp) getting new piece should make you feel like you actually accomplished something and you deserved it, not something you'll throw away in no time. But gear grind (in its all appernaces) does motivate people, and one regular mmo player does need something to look forward, because all mmos are in one way or another, grindy.  


  User Deleted
1/27/12 11:55:11 AM#127

To me, if getting to the next level is the main focus, then the game fails. In good games, MMO or single player, leveling is something that happens while experiencing the game and the lore. EQ2 and LOTRO both have the ability to keep me immersed in the world and again, leveling is just something that happens while I play. WOW was that way for me during vanilla and to a lesser extent BC but its not the same game it was. If the journey isnt interesting enough to keep me playing then endgame is meaninless as I will never get to it.

  Gigachip

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/10
Posts: 35

1/27/12 12:02:34 PM#128
Aion was a game that promoted a grind to max level. Look how that turned up lol. I do remember playing DAoC 3 days straight to get 48-50 back in the days. Still remember what character and the people who helped me.
Gigachip Xfire Miniprofile
  Teala

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/16/04
Posts: 7437

"Really officer, they're herbs."

1/27/12 12:02:59 PM#129
Originally posted by JimyHumuHumu

 Yes, imo, it was much much better when every new piece of gear actually meant something. So why doesnt it matter anymore? Because you outlevel 99% of your gear 20 mins after you get it, and thats how it is all the way to end game. Its not players who are guilty for that, its devs, mind you. If they werent throwing 900 pieces of slightly better gear upon us, 8 times per level, it would still feel like acomplisment, rather than 'yay i just got a 2% better piece of crap which im gonna use for next 4,5 quests' feeling we have now.


 


Leveling speed does matter too, but not that much compared to gazillion eq pieces we are being "awarded" for killing 10 rats every 5 minutes. It makes all but end game gear obsolete, thus making the rest of the game quite obsolete too, considering how getting new pieces of gear is one of the most motivating points for many people.


 


it all makes the leveling aspect less fun, which also makes peoeple wanting to rush thru content so they can finally get somethig that they wont outlevel in next 30 mins.


You know, in old games every piece of gear had its place in the world, even when you get something better, there was ALWAYS another person willing to keep on using that item after you are done with it. Now all we have is thousands of vendor crap that doesnt last more than one playing session, and you wonder why people dont actually feel like they accomplished something when they get new piece of (usually) quest gear.


 


@teala, even if the gear wouldnt mean that much (aka have little impact on your stats and pvp) getting new piece should make you feel like you actually accomplished something and you deserved it, not something you'll throw away in no time. But gear grind (in its all appernaces) does motivate people, and one regular mmo player does need something to look forward, because all mmos are in one way or another, grindy.  

Hmm...I am more in favor of offering tons of different styles, rather than the "go do this raid and get [this] piece of gear."  That everyone else and their mother is wearing.   I think character customization is another area many of the newer games fail to deliver.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

1/27/12 12:08:43 PM#130
Originally posted by aSynchro

_ Leveling is too fast/easy in SWTOR ? TSW doesn't have levels and GW2 doesn't have endgame !

GW2 has a flattened leveling curve.  Which means, whereas a 'normal' game has increasing XP gaps as levels increase, GW2 has a relatively flat XP-to-next-level all the way to the cap.

If you're looking to GW2 to bring back "slow" final levels, you may be placing your trust in the wrong place.  Or may not, we'll see (there's places other than raw XP to slay the same dragon).

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Kaocan

Novice Member

Joined: 8/18/09
Posts: 1312

The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend.

1/27/12 12:13:06 PM#131

They just need to add things to SWTOR that isnt the norm. Me, I'm not one of the locust, but I play with MANY in my guild. Some of them already have 3 level 50s, and yes, they gripe all the time about nothing to do. Me, I'm 45 now on my main, 21 on my alt, and enjoying the ride all the way up. I ask those with the 3 at cap about some elusive champ mob I found someplace, and they have no idea what I'm talking about. I ask them about some AREA quest chain I find, and again, no idea what I am talking about. There is plenty to do in this game, if you take the time to do it and enjoy it. Although I do agree the xp you get from doing everything in the game needs to be turned down. I can level over entire planets just by doing my main story line quests, which is sad.

Oh and look for Legacy leveling as a viable option to keep people in the game..well that is once we know what the hell it is and what it gives us. I'm leveling it up now though, even without knowing what it will give me. I have a few ideas, hoping I'm right but we will see I guess.

Point is, Bioware needs to toss in more things to do for the end game that isn't the usual daily grind and gear tier progression. Those ideas are old, outdated, and honestly not wanted by a lot of people. We want something new, intriguing, something that will keep us going. Give us new story and quest chains that START at level 50, that takes us back to places we may have missed along the way, quests that make us feel epic because we were there, not because we walked away with a new hat.

(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)

  darkhalf357x

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/25/12
Posts: 1128

I'm only playing the role chosen for me. Who you supposed to be?

1/27/12 12:15:26 PM#132

Originally posted by Anubisan

I personally have never found really long level treadmills to be entertaining. If it takes too long to progress in a game, it simply isn't worth it to me. I don't have an endless amount of free time to spend on video games like I did when I was a teenager. As a result, I welcome the faster level treadmill found in games such as SWTOR or WoW. I will actually invest the time to level up in them because I can play for an hour or two each night and still feel like I'm accomplishing something. The long grinds found in older games was one of the reasons that those MMOs never attained mass-market appeal. There are a lot of people simply unwilling to invest the kind of time necessary to succeed in them.


In my opinion, developers need to focus more on what happens at end-game rather than making it take a lot longer to level. Raids and instanced battlegrounds aren't enough if you ask me. Eng-game seems like it would be the perfect time to implement some sandbox-like elements to keep people playing long term. Things like player cities and PvP objectives that are capturable by player guilds, etc. These things foster communities that last for long periods of time. I don't understand why more games don't try to implement thee things at end-game.



 


I think thats the point.  MMOs are (or were) for a particular audience.  I came from the console side of gaming to MMOs because of the (promise) of slower-pacing, long levels, great adventure.  MMOs today are looking more and more like a XBOX Live title, which is sounding more of what you are looking for.  I'd recommend trying Skyrim


I'd also argue you can still get quick achievements from 'longer' levelling games.  I have a full time job and kids = .001% of a day to myself ;-)   I play ~2hrs a night.  Do I need to level up every night? No.  Some nights I just harvest.  Others I just craft.  Achievement shouldnt be tied to levelling alone.  What makes it FUN is while I am casually harvest you never know when you will run into another quest that might take you down another path you never thought was there.


  AIMonster

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/31/08
Posts: 2025

1/27/12 12:15:42 PM#133

I'm not sure why it's okay for articles like this that are essentially targeted at complaining about certain types of MMO players.  Content locusts?  Really?


Honestly, wouldn't us "content locusts" be more satisified with longer grind, since it keeps us occupied on the task of hitting max level and completing all content for a longer period of time.  We fit in the achiever category (which is the primary category of about 60% of gamers) and I can tell you achieving something that takes longer is much more satisifying.


I would love for more compelling content leveling up.  Rift took me all of 3 days to hit max level.  That's horrible.  Comparatively EQ took me almost a year to hit max.  It's not our fault the developer put all focus into end game.  News flash, we want the game to be interesting at all levels for whatever our skill level might be just like casuals!


Honestly, I could make that agruement that you so called casuals are the reason we have such a quick leveling pace.  God forbid someone doesn't get to experience end game content and have the best gear available to them on their 4 hours a month of gametime.  Were we used to have to work for the "end game" (and only us content locusts made it their as a result) enjoying the journey along the along, now we basically have to rush through linear quest hubs to get to the good content in a short meaningless grind.  Now pretty much anyone can get the best gear available to them for minimal effort and as a result we content locust (ie, hardcore gamer/achievers) are forced to move onto the next game as there is little reward for achieving something that everyone can achieve without much time and effort spent.


Raptr link because it's the cool new trend:

  gda1369

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/26/10
Posts: 3

1/27/12 12:19:15 PM#134

Though I agree with you on the fact that leveling in SWTOR is rather fast (it took me a couple of years to reach 30 in COH playing at a casual pace) I think you missed a major reason that games rush you to the end game.  Development cost and release date deadlines.  Games now a days need to be released fast and on time, which means that the dev team isn't given much time to get the game working right and add enough content to keep us happy for months and years to come.  Nowhere is this more apperent than in the consol market where it's rush the game out and give them the DLC later, they'll be happy to pay to improve their game, and this mentality is bleeding into our MMOs.  Get the game out in 2-3 years with as few bugs as possible and then do patches and expansions to give them content. 


I hate to say it but we are all responsible for this problem.  We bitched and whined when game companies pushed back release dates and cost them money by potentially not buying the game just because it was several months later than we wanted it to be.


Because of all this there is a fine line in the leveling of a game that must be kept.  Make us level to slowly and the game feels like we are grinding just to be able to survive the next phase of the game. Or allow us to level in pace of the game and then realize that we are completeing it to quickly.  I understand that that balance is hard to maintain and no game company will be able to make everyone happy, but I do hope in the future they strive to reach that balance, but that will only happen when we as players stop supporting unfinished or rushed content.  Let them know that we expect more from them and they will have to give it to us or stop doing what they love doing (bringing us fun and exciting games).


That's my oppinion anyway.  Who knows maybe I'm way off base.


  zymurgeist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/24/04
Posts: 5212

1/27/12 12:19:18 PM#135
Originally posted by Teala
 

Hmm...I am more in favor of offering tons of different styles, rather than the "go do this raid and get [this] piece of gear."  That everyone else and their mother is wearing.   I think character customization is another area many of the newer games fail to deliver.

 Bingo. The solution is customizable gear. Every piece of gear in a game requires computing resources. If gear is throw away you're wasting resources for things that aren't even used. If we can customize our gear, and characters, those resources are used for things that matter to us. Forcing people to wear clown suits because they have the best stats or the set is spread across several level requirements is outmoded. Let people look like they want to. SWTOR does this in a minimal way but they should have gone a lot farther. A lot farther. I can quest, farm or craft a RD768 custom hilt module just as easily as a lightsaber of evil pwnage. And of course add dyes. Does every Jedi have to wear the same boring robes? Really? Let me play the content not chase the magic carrot.

"Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  Bossalinie

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/29/07
Posts: 632

1/27/12 12:20:46 PM#136

Did someone really just say that Eve was the most popular game?

  darkhalf357x

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/25/12
Posts: 1128

I'm only playing the role chosen for me. Who you supposed to be?

1/27/12 12:20:52 PM#137

Originally posted by bill4747

Slow leveling = Grind.


Grind is boring.


 


These are generalities, and of course some people like grind.


 


 


But can someone explain to me how a game can have slow leveling and not be grindy and boring?


Generally I can only survive the grind by grouping with other people for fun. 


 


 


I have done crafting in DAOC (mind numbing boredom but you could make sellable items)


I have leveled a character in DAOC back in the day (Mind numbing grind), and that was just to level 50, no real realm rank or trials of atlantis done at all.


I have fled from Lineage 2 back in the day from the uber mind numbing grind.


 



 


Its a matter of perspective and how well the developers can 'mask' the grind mechanic. I can grind forever as long as its towards something worth while (aspects include story, music, atmospehere, etc).  Its like a movie.  A longer runtime doesnt make a movie better, its the content (or the draw).


If the game cant draw your attention, capture your imagination, then it will always be seen as a grind because there is nothing else to make you think otherwise.


  User Deleted
1/27/12 12:21:19 PM#138

Really I mean don't blame TOR's failures on people who can consume content faster than others. Perhaps TOR should have released more challenging content. It isn't always about the casuals! Perhaps they should of made a mmo worth playing in the first place. Blaming players is stupidity at best.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

1/27/12 12:25:47 PM#139
Originally posted by Magnum2103
Honestly, I could make that agruement that you so called casuals are the reason we have such a quick leveling pace.

Well, it's kind of revisionist history, again. 

The time-to-cap was already shortening in most games before WoW arrived, because players were seeking (said the devs):  More soloable content (lashback to "forced grouping"), and faster leveling (lashback against "long grinds").

We've got another case where the original-games state was just as bad (and just as often complained about) as the current state, but in the opposite direction.

Every player thinks they have a handle on it (what "all gamers really want"), but as we've noted most efforts to modify the games result in an overcorrection, of one sort or another, to an equal but opposite problem.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Kaocan

Novice Member

Joined: 8/18/09
Posts: 1312

The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend.

1/27/12 12:28:54 PM#140
Originally posted by Magnum2103

I'm not sure why it's okay for articles like this that are essentially targeted at complaining about certain types of MMO players.  Content locusts?  Really?


Honestly, wouldn't us "content locusts" be more satisified with longer grind, since it keeps us occupied on the task of hitting max level and completing all content for a longer period of time.  We fit in the achiever category (which is the primary category of about 60% of gamers) and I can tell you achieving something that takes longer is much more satisifying.


I would love for more compelling content leveling up.  Rift took me all of 3 days to hit max level.  That's horrible.  Comparatively EQ took me almost a year to hit max.  It's not our fault the developer put all focus into end game.  News flash, we want the game to be interesting at all levels for whatever our skill level might be just like casuals!


Honestly, I could make that agruement that you so called casuals are the reason we have such a quick leveling pace.  God forbid someone doesn't get to experience end game content and have the best gear available to them on their 4 hours a month of gametime.  Were we used to have to work for the "end game" (and only us content locusts made it their as a result) enjoying the journey along the along, now we basically have to rush through linear quest hubs to get to the good content in a short meaningless grind.  Now pretty much anyone can get the best gear available to them for minimal effort and as a result we content locust (ie, hardcore gamer/achievers) are forced to move onto the next game as there is little reward for achieving something that everyone can achieve without much time and effort spent.

I would agree with your standpoint more if the 'content locust' the OP is talking about actually cared about the leveling up content at all. 99.95% of them only care about the content they accomplish ONCE they reach the cap. Most of them skip over so much content on thier mad rush to the finish line it really is mindboggling. 

If you are one, you should at least be honest with everyone here. It doesn't matter if the xp progression to level was fast or slow, the locust will take whatever path has the least resistance and the most xp gain per hour that can be accomplished. And if that path means killing the exact same 5 mobs over and over for months, they will take that path every time. Content, true leveling up content, is irrelivant to an end game power player. 

Linear to them means the path from point A to point Z is a straight line achieved by going to this place from X level to X level and then to this place from X level to X level. Again, the actually content in these areas is relivant only by thier ability to give the most xp in the shortest amout of time, with the least resistance/difficulty. Difficulty (work) and content are only important once they have reached the cap.

This is what your post here missed, you move on to the next title because you get to cap so fast, and missed so much of the games REAL content. You only see what is there from the top looking down. If it isn't content geared to the top, to the very top, to the select few to say they got it and nobody else can, then it isnt really content to you guys. You thirst for the ability to stand in the middle of the crowd and say you achieved something nobody else can. And what you achieved is missing out on the GAME you paid to play, something everyone else can say they did which you never will be able to do with your playstyle.

 

(disclaimer - the use of the word YOU in the above statement is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied)

(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)

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