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News & Features Discussion  » General: Content Locusts Killed My MMO

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407 posts found
  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15157

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

1/27/12 7:36:49 AM#21

The real question to me is are themeparks really designed to be long-term homes for gamers, or are they designed to be games that we play until we get our fill? To me the design seems to fit the latter, a game you can play for months and consume as you go. The entire design seems to be about consumption. We can only consume so much before we get full.

IS a game that kept you playing for 3-4 month intervals or longer, really failing to be what it's intended to be?

SWG wasn't a game made for consumption, it was a design all about community building and forging your own way. This design lends itself to being a home for gamers, I don't see this in any form in games like TOR, RIFT, WOW, etc...

 

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  Ausare

Novice Member

Joined: 3/23/11
Posts: 870

1/27/12 7:37:05 AM#22
Originally posted by cpoustie
Originally posted by Ausare

Yeah WoW really killed themselves only hold 9+ million subs for what atleast 6 years.  There is more to this than just speed of leveling/content issues.  Alt viability and fun, mini games, pvp fun, social aspects, difficult of end game content, amount of end game content...

The arguement that wow has 9 million subscribers so it must be good really really annoys me.  By this logic, can we assume that Communism is good because more than 1 Billion people exist under that form of government?  The only fact we can take away from wow is that for the majority of the MMO community it was the first MMO accessible enough for the masses to see it as something to do in their spare time as opposed to being the realm of geeks and losers.
In my opinion we would have been served better by EQ or UO or a game along similar veins to have been wow instead of wow.  Perhaps now we would have immersive virtual worlds that people would feel attached to and have some motivation to remain and invest themselves in beyond shinies and epeen.

Nice strawman.  WoW people are there by choice not by force.  Chinese people could not change their goverment as easy as people can leave WoW.  At any time people could leave.  The problem is there was nothing else GOOD to go to.  So yes it makes the product good if it can hold people that long and keep people coming back or subbing for the first time when it is an older game.  Get a better comparison.

  VincentG85

Novice Member

Joined: 7/18/10
Posts: 14

1/27/12 7:38:33 AM#23

This is where The Secret World stands :


 - No Levels : You start at "end-game" !


 - 500 Skills tu Unlock : Grinding all of the 500 is going to take a bunch of time !


Still 2 months...


  ComfyChair

Novice Member

Joined: 7/22/10
Posts: 766

1/27/12 7:42:38 AM#24

I don't think glacial levelling fans will like GW2 either. It's still a long time to hit max level, don't get me wrong, but levelling doesn't make a massive difference in that game in terms of what you experience. The game is what most MMO's consider 'end game' from the get go. It's all about the journey and enjoying yourself, not forcing yourself to ding 80 to do 'good stuff'. 


Oh, and the 2000 man PvP :D


  kneebane

Novice Member

Joined: 1/08/10
Posts: 15

1/27/12 7:42:48 AM#25

Good article to open up discussion - I mainly feel lack of genuinly new content in quests, they tend to repeat themselves, are there really so few quest archtypes? I think not, take for example Lotro - Shire, damn that was great place to do quests, I simply loved it, a lot of different kind of quests - so many I could choose which to skip if I felt like it. So I do love short levelling if its just going to repeat few archtypes (kill x things, kill thing x and pick up item y, click with item z which is protected by zound of creatures, etc...), hell, it would be great to level so that you actually should pick up from various quests, not just do hub of quests to get level and move on... heck, I would repair things, build houses, save things, educate kids, row boat and do some net-fishing, even everyday things to get a break from common arch-types *shivers*


 


 


  Ausare

Novice Member

Joined: 3/23/11
Posts: 870

1/27/12 7:48:30 AM#26

Problem with slow leveling is diminishing returns to the company.  Look at what is said about Eve now.  True or not Eve has a reputation that it is pointless to start now because you will not be able to do things in the game.  When a game first releases the content is great, but as the average level of players raises as the game ages slow leveling creates a barrier to new people that want to join and partake of the content the average level player is doing.  Content that requires groups gets harder to find people to do it.  Pretty much the whole reason after a while Blizzard would go back and change group quests to solo quests.  Low level mass content becomes a barrier.

  BloodyViking

Novice Member

Joined: 1/08/12
Posts: 123

1/27/12 7:48:44 AM#27

"I like to blame the content locusts for this, at least to a large extent – that small percentage of players whose goal isn’t to experience content but to consume it as fast as possible as they race inexorably through a game. The people who, driven to hit max level as rapidly as they can, then sit there and whine loudly about how they have nothing to do and how they’re still hungry. There’s no satisfying that kind of player."


This is an argument I would like to turn on its head. It is the players who play through the content the fastest who discover the actual endgame the developers have created. So in that manner they are able to give you a heads up on what you have in store.


How is it a players fault that the game is made in such a manner that even with regular questing you will reach max level in under 20 days if you have some time on your hand to play (8-10 hours a day, students/youths/hobos/whatever)?


Blaming the players for what the developers have created is not only stupid, its moronic.


Anyone who pays 50 dollars (I paid about 85 dollars btw for the regular store edition here in Norway) has a right to speak up about their experience with the game. When you are expected to pay 15 dollars a month to experience the game over time there better be some reason for you to pay those 15 dollars. I dont just give people money just because I like them. I dont send 15 dollars a month to my favourite sneaker producer just because I like them. When you pay money for a product you should expect something in return.


So if you play through the content in the free month, what reason do you have to pay a montly fee of 15 dollars when the endgame offers next to nothing? Do you pay money for "something good will come to the game in X months"? I dont pay people for promises they make. I pay people for what they deliver.


Yes, there has been some shouting and whining that has been excessive in expressing peoples emotions over the game. But most of what I have seen carries substance to it. People say why they dont like what they see. And thats valid critique in my book. You're not a "hater" or a "GW-fanboy" just because you cant stand many aspects of what SW:TOR delivers or not.


  User Deleted
1/27/12 7:49:17 AM#28

Very well written, I enjoyed the article. I am the type of casual player now that has not time to devote to the end game raid content. Back in the early EQ days I would raid for hours, nah, days on end. Camping a spawn or ..whatever. Real life became too important for me, I realized gaming was ruining real life for me and I was missing out.

      These days, the "journey" is the game for me. In every MMO I have played since EQ, I have taken my time and taken in every part of the game , right from level 1. I will play multiple toons, keep crafting ahead of my level, explore every little corner of a zone/world and when the day finally comes I  hit max level, the game is done for me. It's almost an "I win" attitude. I have no time for raid schedules and mandatory raiding of the sort. So, for me, the developer had better done a damned good job with every level of the game.

      Power-gamers, people that race to the end content, full-time raiders.........I have zero problem with them, and I can kind of see their points. It's just not for me, it doesn't make it wrong for them to want more, or something deeper in their games. I used to be that way, and probably one day, they will see gaming the way I do, if they even game at all. I can see it's near impossible to satisfy everyone, but they are definitely going to cater to the masses, business is business.

 

      Probably a pointless post, but something about the article and the immediate reactions made a long time "lurker" chime in. Currently playing the much discussed SWTOR, enjoying, though I wish the leveling curve was slower and the level by level content was deeper, and the world was a little less static.

 

 

  Laserwolf

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/04/05
Posts: 2369

1/27/12 7:50:33 AM#29

Skill-Based instead of Level-Based = Problem Solved.




I played UO near constantly for at least 4-5 years. There was no "end-game" because the game never ended.  How can an MMO released 14 years ago get it so right while every MMO released now does it wrong?





 

  Ausare

Novice Member

Joined: 3/23/11
Posts: 870

1/27/12 7:53:07 AM#30
Originally posted by Laserwolf

Skill-Based instead of Level-Based = Problem Solved.




I played UO near constantly for at least 4-5 years. There was no "end-game" because the game never ended.  How can an MMO released 14 years ago get it so right while every MMO released now does it wrong?





 

i would say because of PvP.  Classes with levels are easier to balance than Skill based play.  UO was about ganking not competative or and to a lesser extent really meaningful PvP.

  Caldrin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/04
Posts: 4033

1/27/12 7:53:28 AM#31

nice article.. i totally agree...


My 3D models
http://dragon3d.webs.com/

  BoostedBob

Novice Member

Joined: 1/30/11
Posts: 21

1/27/12 7:54:16 AM#32

As much as I love SWTOR, Ill have to agree with the OP. I remeber in Lineage the blood pledge(lin 1) to hit 50 was a feat in it self. Sure it was grindy but got to say I have some fond memory's about it. If you ask me yes I could tell you the gear I had before I quit, but it is a no go on SWTOR not to say its not a good game but I really dont feel the acomplisment in SWTOR as I did in Lineage, or Aion. 


Im taking my lvling in SWTOR pretty slow im only lvl 29 and have been playing it since release on the 20th. I want to enjoy it as long as possible.


  elocke

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/15/04
Posts: 4076

1/27/12 7:56:10 AM#33

People blow through content as fast as possible because life is SHORT and we all have busy lives and a million things to do, so we usually take our entertainment the same way.  Sadly.


Personally, I think extending leveling doesn't help, not these days.  You could have made SWTOR have leveling take as long as it did in EQ or FFXI and I think it would make it ten times worse.


What we need for longevity is first, the standard game, which we now have but all the extra stuff that keeps people around for long times, like housing, pvp arenas, collections, numerous mini games, vanity pets, mount collecting, achievements, and in my opinion, even more things along this line.  Which means Devs need to start innovating in this area.  In the area of keeping a game fat and growing at a reasonable pace.  


Rift is sort of doing it, but they lacked a nice fat base world to launch from.  WoW had the nice fat base world, but they lacked any horizontal gameplay and are just now hinting at it in the next expack. 


See, it's not about levels after all, it's about CONTENT that isn't the run of the mill content that everyone knows how to play to the bone.


http://www.twitch.tv/elockethemmoaddict

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  Volgore

Tipster

Joined: 6/15/08
Posts: 1887

Posts deleted: 12589457

1/27/12 7:59:04 AM#34

Don't blame it all on the players.


Only a minority wants to rush through to max level and then stand around bored in a capital city. Alot more players would in fact enjoy a longer journey and meaningful level experience.


It's also that devs became very lazy (see SWTOR) and don't seem to care as much anymore. On top of that, investors rush them them to release half finished games.


Another problem is that today's games aren't made for gamers anymore. Gamers usually already got their favorite game to which they stuck to, esp. when it's about mmorpgs.


Totays games are made to attract folks who aren't necessarily gaming. The non-gamers are the larger target audience and usually more forgiving about the state of a just released game.


Investorts who want their money into games made for kids needing constant rewarding or housewifes who only have like 15minutes at a time are part the problem.


  BloodyViking

Novice Member

Joined: 1/08/12
Posts: 123

1/27/12 7:59:49 AM#35

Originally posted by Laserwolf

Skill-Based instead of Level-Based = Problem Solved.


I played UO near constantly for at least 4-5 years. There was no "end-game" because the game never ended.  How can an MMO released 14 years ago get it so right while every MMO released now does it wrong?

Having a skill-based character development is just part of the equation. You still need a solid gameplay experience that will make the players want to log in the next day and the next day etc.


The way I see it the problem with todays MMO's is that they have too strict rulesets and are too confined. Some people will call that a "theme-park" concept but I think thats an oversimplification. It all boils down to how many choices the players have to express themselves in the gameworld. PvP is part of that. Tradeskilling or just bartering (buying low selling high) is part of that. Monster hunting is part of that. Exploration is part of that. Building. Landscaping. There are a great many aspects you CAN have even in what is normaly classified as "theme-park" games.


Todays MMO's are just too confined to PvP, money farming and dungeon/raiding. Although thats PART of the MMO formula, the opportunities are much larger to create a solid social world for people to express themselves in.


  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10377

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

1/27/12 8:00:04 AM#36


Originally posted by Arkinia
I leveled much more quickly in WoW than in SWTOR. What game are you playing?


Same here. At least with SWToR there's a reason to finish the content (the story line).

I don't see having too much content in each zone an issue for the leveling pace. If someone just wants to get to the max level or doesn't care about the content of the game, what difference does it make where they are when they hit the max level? In SWToR, players who want to see the end of the story line will. Those who are only concerned about getting to max level will hit 50, drop all their quests and go raiding or something. I would much rather have too much content than not enough. Given that it's impossible to get exactly the right amount of content for everyone, too much is good.

The overall trend isn't caused by 'content locusts' though. There have been a few research studies done on players and how much they play. Most players of games in general don't complete the content. There are many more 'incompleters' than 'content locusts'. It doesn't matter if the game is a single player RPG, FPS or MMORPG. So game developers are creating games with less content and padding it with online play.

You'll notice that the story in SWToR is broken up into distinct 'chapters'. Each chapter is about 10 hours of game play or so. Some longer, some shorter. I think this is to accommodate the amount of time most players actually play games. They get to complete a 'chapter', but they stick around for the rest of the game, like a weekly television show.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Vonatar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/18/10
Posts: 553

1/27/12 8:04:24 AM#37

Perhaps it's rose-tinted spectacles, but EQ as I remember it felt like a never-ending journey. I haven't played an MMO since that felt anything like that. To me, this is what an MMO should be, in the same way as old pen-and-paper games never reached a natural end as there was always something more to achieve.


  Aceundor

Novice Member

Joined: 2/08/06
Posts: 494

Why do I keep reading these forums?

1/27/12 8:06:10 AM#38

 

This is an interresting article. I am one of those that developers wants to stay ingame longer. I quit vanilla wow at level 55 (5 under cap) as the grind was to boring. The same with every other mmo out there i have played. I get to a few levels under cap and then quit. I guess me and many others have similar patterns and the devs "dumb down" the games to cater for players such as me. 


However no matter what they try i end up quitting a game faster and faster. For me its the journey and not "getting there" that counts. When the journey approaches the end I leave. 


I think maybe TSW has a good idea where you "start at max" and then grind your skills whil experienceing the content. Might keep me ingame longer. 


Originally posted by BishopB:

Are a lot of the trolls just angry kids with old gaming hardware?

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18727

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

1/27/12 8:07:46 AM#39
Originally posted by Ausare

Yeah WoW really killed themselves only hold 9+ million subs for what atleast 6 years.  There is more to this than just speed of leveling/content issues.  Alt viability and fun, mini games, pvp fun, social aspects, difficult of end game content, amount of end game content...


WoW kept people for these reason even though the game was "easy" to level through.  Other newer games fail at some of these issues.

WOW didn't "keep" all that many people, more people have played and quit WOW than are currently subscribed. (OK, I can't prove that, don't waste thread time debating the issue here)

What they did manage to do is keep changing the game mechanics to appeal to a broader and broader player base while driving off the previous generation in the process (who likely would have left regardless, MMO's have a shelf life for everyone, no matter how fun)

And when it started out, WOW was a much slower leveling process, my first character took me 16 days played, (to level 60) my last avatar after Cata launched got to 90 in roughly 6.5 days played.

Even more, to get to 60 in my first character I literally had to do every quest, every dungeon and even grind a few levels to reach 60, so I missed no quest content.  In the last go around much like the OP said, I found myself rapidly leveling past the content, entirely missing some zones in the process. 

This did not make WOW a better game IMO..... since the end game is not why I enjoyed it. (Gear grinding is not my thing)

Same issue occurred with Rift, my first and only character, (no beta experience) reached max level in 1.5 months of pretty causal play...and there I was again, with nothing to do but grind for gear, and I stopped playing even though I had bought a 6 month sub. (no more of that I assure you)

 

 

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  musicmann

Novice Member

Joined: 12/25/05
Posts: 1122

1/27/12 8:08:24 AM#40

Well, i just hit level 50 in TOR and that took me, from Dec. 13 until Jan 25. Now that's almost a month and a half. I did most side quests, some pvp and space and never hit my spacebar.


You read some people that feel, getting off your ship and going through the spaceports should be done away with and it should be an autpmatic button. These type of things are what makes the game flow and feel like a real alive planet.


Bioware is between a rock and a hard place. They have created these huge planets and some people could care less and want the easy route throughout the game, to only bitch and moan once they reach the so called end game.


I've also seen people who bitch about finding and solving the riddle of how to get to a datacron if it's not right in front and easy to get to. I find datacrons fun as shit to be honest. I purposely didn't set out to find any of them. Knowing that once i reached max level that would be something i wanted to do as a seperate deal. On my path i have only found maybe 4 or 5 and now i can go back to each planet and have that to.


All this really dpends on how you play a game. Rush to everything and skip almost all, and you will feel cheated. Take your time, and absorb what's in front of you and you really can see how TOR is a very amazing mmorpg, that while it does have some tech issue's, has a lot of content to chew on for a long time with much more to come.


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