Sure there will always be people who ask for faster travel. The problem is the traveling in SWTOR just flat out sucks. Everywhere I want to go I have to walk down the same 2 boring hallways with lifeless, meaningless NPCs in them.

The run to BRS was never fun .. but it sure didn't make my damn eyes bleed. At least when you get on the transportation in every single other mmo out there .. it is eye catching .. and can be a good time to reply to some tells, or sort your inventory. In SWTOR I have to run through empty hallways to click on doors to run through more empty hallways to click on more doors .. whomever decided this was a good idea needs to find a new career. game design might not be his calling.

@bossalinie I may have lost your point, but lets say in 10 years you rent an action move .. yes guns, fast cars and popcorn is ready, but then it turns out to be about life in a retirement home.

You take the movie back and complains it is not an action movie, but Blockbuster says this is an action movie because other started calling it so, we had to label ours the same for business reasons.

Is this movie now an action movie ? Yes it is to many, but not to you because you have grown up with a different definition.

Which is true then /boggle.

On a side node I have quite alot of days /played in WoW. The strange story about WoW is that it started as a mmorpg but it is in its current state as much anymore, but that doesnt mean I dont enjoy it.

Our time is limited so we want to do it fast and move on.

Originally posted by kjempff

@bossalinie I may have lost your point, but lets say in 10 years you rent an action move .. yes guns, fast cars and popcorn is ready, but then it turns out to be about life in a retirement home.

You take the movie back and complains it is not an action movie, but Blockbuster says this is an action movie because other started calling it so, we had to label ours the same for business reasons.

Is this movie now an action movie ? Yes it is to many, but not to you because you have grown up with a different definition.

Which is true then /boggle.

 

On a side node I have quite alot of days /played in WoW. The strange story about WoW is that it started as a mmorpg but it is in its current state not really anymore, but that doesnt mean I dont enjoy it.

Sorry about the @ stuff. This site's mobile quote abilities fail.

I would say my point would be that my interest in MMO virtual worlds do not fit me like it did 10 years ago.

I had nothing but time on my hands during UO, AO, and then SWG. Mid SWG, the virtual world took an extreme backseat when IRL hit me like a ton of bricks. Just couldn't put in the time to keep up or participate. I pretty much had quit MMO's because of it. Then CoH, with the help of ventrilo and steam-liek chat programs, hit then scene I was like I can still do the MMO experience without sacrificing anything outside of the game. That lead me to WoW, which sold me back in even more. I didn't even care if people who played more than myself reaped better rewards, but I was just happy that I could enjoy a good chunky of the game when I was online. The rest is history...

New generation themeparks didn't sway my support, life did. I was just fortunately, that there was something out there for me. Unfortunetly for old schools who didn't have my issue, the new gaming experience went viral.

I can't vouch for anyone else, but I seriously doubt that I am the only one who went through this.

Originally posted by tixylix

They want to play something like Guild Wars or Diablo where you have social hubs and instanced questing areas. They want an experience that is quick to get into and rewards them constantly for doing nothing like all the ribbons you get in BF3. They don't want to explore vast worlds, have a challenge or do any world content. They certainlly are not interested in the idea of a virtual seamless world like what MMOs tried to offer in the past.

For me an MMO has to have a persistent world that can have a MASSIVE amount of players in any one area. That is the basis of the gameplay because if Planetside 2 only offered 64 player fights and then a social hub to visit it wouldn't be an MMO. Yet we have games these days calling themselves MMOs and they lack any of this. 

Every MMO I've ever loved playing has been ruined by all the whiners on the forums. The problem is the developers listen to them, give them what they want and patch by patch we slowly lose the MMO and are just left with a multiplayer game. 

It's happening and happened to SWTOR already...

People are already asking for fast travel every, the ability to just warp to any planet from your location. They're already asking for faster vehicles because they hate the travel times which in SWTOR are so small as it is. In beta they added the fleets which basically took everyone out of the worlds and put them in a social hub where they just stay there. Most people now just sit there get groups for flashpoints and battlegrounds and level up on that stuff like what happened to WoW. The worlds have no one in them because these people playing do not want to play an MMO, they just want to play Guild Wars. 

We have these amazing cities in SWTOR with no one in them because of that fleet station and it has ruined the MMO in that game. I at least want people to be in those cities and not the fleet station which shouldn't even be in the game in the first place.  

What is happening to world PVP now? Well it barely exists outside of the PVP planets and oh look the population cap on them is getting shrunk already. There is even talk about just turning them into bigger battlegrounds like AV. The players on Ilum don't want a world PVP experience, they just want to exploit and farm the game until they ruin it and the developers take out world PVP altogether like what happened in WoW.

 

Every MMO this has happened to and the last one I truely loved to play (SWG) it happened to that too. Forums whiners slowly got that game dumbed down over time to the point it was ruined well before the CU or the NGE. The CU was the straw and the NGE was just he final Nail, but the truth is that game was well and truely going down the shitter by early 2004. 

 

 

SWTOR has made me realise that no one wants to play MMOs anymore and I have no interest in carrying on with the genre that clearly died out many years ago. What it has turned into today is all thanx to the casual crowd that WoW brought it and they moaned until they killed that game off too. Mythic had the right idea in not having any forums and the only dveeloper that has managed to keep their MMO true to their vision is CCP, so credit to them for that. I'd watch out though it probably wont be too long before it becomes class and loot based lol.

It's not the players fault. People are asking for stuff like quick travel because of bad game design. The open world in a game like TOR is not dangerous. So traveling from one place to another is just tedious for no real reason. If there was a risk or some other gameplay mechanic involved with travel, it would instantly become more interesting and less players would ask for the ability to warp to locations.

Same thing goes for the instancing of cities in TOR. Who cares? You say they're amazing cities, but they aren't. You can't do anything in them. PvP is off limits and there's no player housing, so what difference does it make if it's instanced to hell?

Sorry about the @ stuff. This site's mobile quote abilities fail.

Indeed.

Yup all makes sense and it happens to just about everyone, but remember you are the one who changed and your priorities. You now enjoy something different than before and that is exactly my point. You just dont want to play mmorpgs anymore, you want something slightly different but not completely, and that is very understandable.

This site that used to be so full of interesting stuff, is now so empty to me .. urgh my back, hand me my cane please. But once inawhile I have to speak, knowing fully that no one really listens expect those who agree with me.

Originally posted by B0bbyNewmark

Our time is limited so we want to do it fast and move on.

Again.... thats what console games are for. MMOs, True MMOs just arent for those that have a busy schedule. Im sure you could make time to play them here and there but it would/should take you quite awhile to accpomlish what those with more time could. today i see people that want the same things other have only porblem is they dont want to put in the time to get it.

Bottom line is if you dont have time to play MMOs, then there NOT for you.

Originally posted by kantseeme

Originally posted by B0bbyNewmark

Our time is limited so we want to do it fast and move on.

Again.... thats what console games are for. MMOs, True MMOs just arent for those that have a busy schedule. Im sure you could make time to play them here and there but it would/should take you quite awhile to accpomlish what those with more time could. today i see people that want the same things other have only porblem is they dont want to put in the time to get it.

Bottom line is if you dont have time to play MMOs, then there NOT for you.

MMORPG - massive multiplayer online role playing game. No part of this definition says "requires time". You tie "massive" to "time devouring", while in reality it's entirely possible to design game that is both massive and very approachable for everyone (just take a look at GW2's large dynamic events or WvW). Bear in mind, I'm not talking about people who want MMOs to be instanced like D3 - they want ORPGs, and they are getting plenty of them (some of them under cover of MMORPG).

I'm talking about people who want hundreds of players having fun in one area, but without some ridiculous time commitment coming with it in package. They want true MMORPG, without some strings you try to attach to it.

Originally posted by rdash

Originally posted by kantseeme

Originally posted by B0bbyNewmark

Our time is limited so we want to do it fast and move on.

Again.... thats what console games are for. MMOs, True MMOs just arent for those that have a busy schedule. Im sure you could make time to play them here and there but it would/should take you quite awhile to accpomlish what those with more time could. today i see people that want the same things other have only porblem is they dont want to put in the time to get it.

Bottom line is if you dont have time to play MMOs, then there NOT for you.

MMORPG - massive multiplayer online role playing game. No part of this definition says "requires time". You tie "massive" to "time devouring", while in reality it's entirely possible to design game that is both massive and very approachable for everyone (just take a look at GW2's large dynamic events or WvW). Bear in mind, I'm not talking about people who want MMOs to be instanced like D3 - they want ORPGs, and they are getting plenty of them (some of them under cover of MMORPG).

I'm talking about people who want hundreds of players having fun in one area, but without some ridiculous time commitment coming with it in package. They want true MMORPG, without some strings you try to attach to it.

who said a game has to be for everyone? If you dont have the time then you dont need to play. its very simple. If you only have time to do a few quests and go to work, why would you need hundreds of players having fun in one area? your not even goin to speak to them. these people dont want a MMO they want a singel player RPG.

Originally posted by kantseeme

Originally posted by B0bbyNewmark

Our time is limited so we want to do it fast and move on.

Again.... thats what console games are for. MMOs, True MMOs just arent for those that have a busy schedule. Im sure you could make time to play them here and there but it would/should take you quite awhile to accpomlish what those with more time could. today i see people that want the same things other have only porblem is they dont want to put in the time to get it.

Bottom line is if you dont have time to play MMOs, then there NOT for you.

I don't buy into the argument that an MMO has to require half of your life. UO was called an MMORPG not an MMOVW. Game is the key.

I'm also not part of the instant gratification crowd. I agree that if you play more, you get more. I'm a 36 year old farmer/factory worker, I know the value of time and work.

The current thempark model fits me fine because I can log in for however long I have and still feel like I've accomplished something. Even if "something" is gaining half of a level or traveling to my next questing destination or competing in a battleground or hanging out talking with my guildies or whatever the heck I feel like doing at the time.

The argument that people who sit in front of a computer playing games for 10 hours a day need their own genre away from people who bathe is rediculous.

The best mmo is the one we are playing right now

mmorpg.com is the best mmo of all

Originally posted by kantseeme

who said a game has to be for everyone? If you dont have the time then you dont need to play. its very simple. If you only have time to do a few quests and go to work, why would you need hundreds of players having fun in one area? your not even goin to speak to them. these people dont want a MMO they want a singel player RPG.

Because doing stuff with hundreds of people around is fun? Stop associating "I have limited time and want the game to be approachable and straight fun" with "I enjoy instanced/solo content only" - those two aren't connected at all.

And I'm not saying that every game has to be for everyone. But if there are people who want accessible, massive content, there should be games for them - and as long as they're massive, they are MMORPG.

Originally posted by WhiteLantern

I live in an expansive non-virtual world. I cut firewood weekly through the spring and fall (winter sometimes too). I build fences and barns. I raise goats and horses (and a llama even). I have a garden larger than the typical suburban housing lot. I also have a 40hr job in a factory.

I don't want to do these things in a virtual world. I want to play games. Sometimes, I want to play them with other people.

 

I understand why some people want sandbox games because I enjoy all of the items I listed above and I'm sure some people can't experience them in the real world. But to say that only sandboxes are true MMOs and everyone else is destroying your sandcastle with their desire for fun gameplay that isn't what you call fun? Grow up.

Have you ever considered buying an XBOX 360 instead of ruining an entire genre because you don't have time to enjoy it anymore?

Originally posted by DarLorkar

Originally posted by AlBQuirk

---

 

Not aimed at you, WhiteLantern :)
MMOs used to be about time. It took time (good or bad) for everything. It was an "investment" in one's time. A player did not log on for 15 minutes and expect to accomplish much. Players in groups hardly went afk. At least in the groups I was in they did not. There was plenty of down-time to do things like bio breaks and such. Now, "down time" is an evil game mechanic. People signed online and knew they were going to spend some time and "dedicated" themselves to the game.

I know many of you are thinking, "Whatever floats your boat!", but think about it. Name one game where you have a vested interest in your character. What hardships has that character overcome? Did you go to some website to find out how to overcome that obstacle, or did you figure it out yourself? Do the history books write about the Donner Party or the 10th plane that flew from New York to Los Angelos? Do you remember the Super Bowl that had a close score and a good game, or the blowout with mismatched teams?

MMOs used to be about overcoming hardships and investing time in a world that the player actually wanted to spend their time in. It was a bunch of basement trolls playing in a virtual world where the real world was usually not so kind, thus the stigma associated with MMOs. It was an escape. C'mon, now, NOT every player was like this, but the core of old time players were.

Players now-a-days have goals and look for successes with their time played. Players today do not "just go fishing" in a virtual world. They will if there is a daily goal involved, though. Players today do not "just see what's over that hill" unless there is an exploration badge or some other reward involved. I found a guildmate in EQ who was as interested in learning the different languages in the game as I was. We would spend HOURS just sitting and talking to each other in different languages as we taught each other.

I liken this attitude to life today, as opposed to yesteryear. People seem to be always "on the go", hurrying to get to their next destination/appointment/activity. I thnk this bleeds over into their gaming time, too. I don't think many people play just to relax anymore. It's like dating... No one wants to invest the time to get to know each other anymore.

/shrug

You know what i think the difference is between people that call themselves "old timers" and what they call the new crowd of casual gamers?

Old timers were looking for friends.

Casual people are looking for fun.

2 total different mind sets. Yes, they can combine a bit. But just think of that.

One set is more interested in making long term commitments by looking for friends that game.

And the other is looking for a fun game to play. And  will drop the  game as soon as the fun stops, with no, or small  amount of thought given, to the people that they may have met while playing.

Both gamers, but the mind sets will always set them apart from each other. And the casual is where the investors and dev's are spending the cash.

And i really do not see it ever going back to the old way. And yes on topic:) because the 2 groups see what defines a MMO  as completely different as their reasons to game. And neither can really see that they are both right, and wrong.

 

 

 

 

As an EQ vet...sure, I played to make friends. In making those friends, I found fun...mainly through adventuring WITH those new friends. Sure...I soloed as well in EQ. Although tougher to do (Because mobs chased you all the way to zone lines, etc), it was still possible...and fun. But most of the fun then was through interaction with other players, because that's what MMO's were about. I mean, they were initially intended for tabletop D&D players, etc.

You are right about today's players...they are looking for fun, but sadly that's almost all. Nearly all MMO's now that I have tried have way less player interaction in them. People seem more hell bent on outdoing each other via leveling, gear, or other accomplishments than getting to know other players and make a community. Which is the...excuse me...WAS the main purpose of MMORPG's at one time. Race from one quest hub to the next. If they have to group, they do it just long enough to obtain what they needed and shove off, unconcerned with  if others in the group got the required items too...even sometimes abandoning them in dangerous areas.

Don't care what the fan boys say, or the trolls...today's "supposed" MMO's are nothing more than instant gratification multi-player hubs. Basically,  built to nearly instantly reward the player. There was a time when people gathered a sense of accomplishment just gaining half a level, or completeing that one long quest, or finally obtaining that one piece of armor or weapon. Now, players seem to feel unfullfilled and shunned if they don't reach cap in 2 weeks, have the high end raid gear in that same amount of time, and aren't all around God-like before the first month's box sale's numbers hit the news (Which sadly...seems all developer's focus on since they know most of the ADD player base won't stick around beyond a month or two anyways).

Sure...why have monthly subs anymore when you can't keep players attention long enough to collect but a couple of payments? Just surge retail box numbers and give special collector's editions to further swell those numbers...since that is where the majority of their money comes from anyways.

It's a vicious circle because these dev's aren't stupid. WHY innovate? Why go that extra mile to do something new and waste resources and money doing so when the "status quo" seems to be keeping the players on a short leash just fine? Sure, they complain, but they are still paying and playing while they do it. It's silly to me.

MMOPRG's are meant for player interaction to go along with the fun. Console games are meant for pure fun (Although FPS games have both, but not on same planes as MMO's). This is why they are seperate genre's.

Originally posted by TruthXHurts

Originally posted by WhiteLantern

I live in an expansive non-virtual world. I cut firewood weekly through the spring and fall (winter sometimes too). I build fences and barns. I raise goats and horses (and a llama even). I have a garden larger than the typical suburban housing lot. I also have a 40hr job in a factory.

I don't want to do these things in a virtual world. I want to play games. Sometimes, I want to play them with other people.

 

I understand why some people want sandbox games because I enjoy all of the items I listed above and I'm sure some people can't experience them in the real world. But to say that only sandboxes are true MMOs and everyone else is destroying your sandcastle with their desire for fun gameplay that isn't what you call fun? Grow up.

Have you ever considered buying an XBOX 360 instead of ruining an entire genre because you don't have time to enjoy it anymore?

Aren't you so precious? Look at you, all smug in your ability to play games all day long.

I do have time to play MMOs. Maybe not as much as you, but I have time. And I make the most of that time, whether it is in front of my computer, PS3, DS, PSP, ect, ect, blah blah blah. Enjoying every second of it. Because, you know, enjoyment is what games are for.

Originally posted by WhiteLantern

Originally posted by kantseeme

Originally posted by B0bbyNewmark

Our time is limited so we want to do it fast and move on.

Again.... thats what console games are for. MMOs, True MMOs just arent for those that have a busy schedule. Im sure you could make time to play them here and there but it would/should take you quite awhile to accpomlish what those with more time could. today i see people that want the same things other have only porblem is they dont want to put in the time to get it.

Bottom line is if you dont have time to play MMOs, then there NOT for you.

I don't buy into the argument that an MMO has to require half of your life. UO was called an MMORPG not an MMOVW. Game is the key.

I'm also not part of the instant gratification crowd. I agree that if you play more, you get more. I'm a 36 year old farmer/factory worker, I know the value of time and work.

The current thempark model fits me fine because I can log in for however long I have and still feel like I've accomplished something. Even if "something" is gaining half of a level or traveling to my next questing destination or competing in a battleground or hanging out talking with my guildies or whatever the heck I feel like doing at the time.

The argument that people who sit in front of a computer playing games for 10 hours a day need their own genre away from people who bathe is rediculous.

That can be done in the game i want to. My beliefe is that ifs harder to do then you feel more acomplished. This comes with time and effort. Theres no effort in getting to max lvl in 1 week.

Theres no effort in getting gear drops every 4 mobs and those mobs are snakes. Theres no effort in insta queing up for 20 min zerg-fest dungeons and arena type PVP. People dont feel they should put any effort into these games anymore.

Everyone needs a reward for just logging in these days. forget about stratagy, its all about the uber gear one can get. and now you can get that gear in 10 different way... all except for crafting because people dont feel the need the put effort into it because it takes away from there gameplay.

I could go on and on and on and on..... but what i highlighted in red can be done in a sandbox-ish MMOs as well. So dont give me that current model of Theampark MMOs is right up your ally. There the McDonalds of the MMO world. If your hungry youll eat it. I do know one thing.... I cant remember the last time i said " Oh my god that 10 piece with fires was so dilicious! i think ill get seconds" Only someone thats high would utter such nonsence.

Originally posted by TruthXHurts

Originally posted by WhiteLantern

I live in an expansive non-virtual world. I cut firewood weekly through the spring and fall (winter sometimes too). I build fences and barns. I raise goats and horses (and a llama even). I have a garden larger than the typical suburban housing lot. I also have a 40hr job in a factory.

I don't want to do these things in a virtual world. I want to play games. Sometimes, I want to play them with other people.

 

I understand why some people want sandbox games because I enjoy all of the items I listed above and I'm sure some people can't experience them in the real world. But to say that only sandboxes are true MMOs and everyone else is destroying your sandcastle with their desire for fun gameplay that isn't what you call fun? Grow up.

Have you ever considered buying an XBOX 360 instead of ruining an entire genre because you don't have time to enjoy it anymore?

Casual gamer don't ruin anything. Developers produce exactly as many and as good hardcore virtual worlds as if they would if casual players packed their bags and moved elsewhere. It's all about money - if casual players leave, they'll take most of the money out of the genre away. You wouldn't start seeing AAA hardcore games churned out into market, because developers and investors focused on casual audience would leave with them, instead of refocusing on niche that's already covered by some games.

Originally posted by rdash

Originally posted by kantseeme

who said a game has to be for everyone? If you dont have the time then you dont need to play. its very simple. If you only have time to do a few quests and go to work, why would you need hundreds of players having fun in one area? your not even goin to speak to them. these people dont want a MMO they want a singel player RPG.

Because doing stuff with hundreds of people around is fun? Stop associating "I have limited time and want the game to be approachable and straight fun" with "I enjoy instanced/solo content only" - those two aren't connected at all.

And I'm not saying that every game has to be for everyone. But if there are people who want accessible, massive content, there should be games for them - and as long as they're massive, they are MMORPG.

So wheres my game? The Theampark crowd are always so optimistic when its your games that are flooding the market. You have your pick of anything atm so yeah, MMO life is good for you. But thats not the case for me.

You think its right to turn MMOs into lobby RPGs because it lets those that perfer to solo an option to group if and when they feel like it? No thanks.

Originally posted by TruthXHurts

Originally posted by WhiteLantern

I live in an expansive non-virtual world. I cut firewood weekly through the spring and fall (winter sometimes too). I build fences and barns. I raise goats and horses (and a llama even). I have a garden larger than the typical suburban housing lot. I also have a 40hr job in a factory.

I don't want to do these things in a virtual world. I want to play games. Sometimes, I want to play them with other people.

 

I understand why some people want sandbox games because I enjoy all of the items I listed above and I'm sure some people can't experience them in the real world. But to say that only sandboxes are true MMOs and everyone else is destroying your sandcastle with their desire for fun gameplay that isn't what you call fun? Grow up.

Have you ever considered buying an XBOX 360 instead of ruining an entire genre because you don't have time to enjoy it anymore?

^ THIS