Originally posted by Paragus1

Originally posted by Praetalus

You just don't get it. Look at the sub numbers for EQ2... look at the sub numbers for LOTRO. Look at the Sub numbers for Age of Conan..... BTW, all of these games are free to play now. 

 

Now, do me a favor and look at the sub numbers of WoW.... which is not free to play I might add. 

 

You know why WoW is higher? Low poly count. They keep the game low so more people can play it. You may not like it but it's a decision you must make as a developer. You can't understand that because you're looking from your point of view and not taking theirs into account. 

 

If you don't like the decision they have made.. you have every right to leave. I understand the decision and intend to keep playing. Both views are viable. 

 

WoW's high subcriptions are not because of its low polycount.   By that same logic Everquest 1 would have more subs than anything else out there.   All of those other games have serious flaws and it has nothing to do with their visuals.

Don't get me wrong, I am a huge believe that gameplay is far more important than graphics.    They don't make or break a game usually, but between misleading people and then basically telling them thay can't figure out their own graphical settings is silly.

Not at all. Eq1 is an old game that not many new school players know about as WoW brought a lot of current gamers to the market in the first place. Once they were here, EQ1 was too old to draw any interest. What I saying is that by keeping your system requirements low, you have a larger audience, you agree?

By having a larger audience, or more people to play the game, you have higher subs. If you don't agree, please explain how WoW has remained at the top of the subs charts when so many other games are free to play?

Originally posted by MacroHard

the fact that Bioware would launch regardless of huge issues means they care more about the money than their player bases.  Shouldn't have been released with major issues.. even if they did pop up last second.

 

This is an ignorant statement. They get their money from the playerbase. If you piss off your playerbase, you piss away your cash. They released when they did because the playerbase was getting weary of waiting for the game.

They felt the issues that cropped up prior to release were minor enough to be fixable after launch, and they are.

Originally posted by Praetalus

Originally posted by JeroKane

Originally posted by Praetalus

Originally posted by JeroKane

Originally posted by Joshua69

Originally posted by JeroKane

Originally posted by lizardbones

Since this wasn't really an issue for me, I think they handled it fine. I never thought the graphics looked all that bad. Of course, I'm not running a high end rig so high end settings would probably just tank my system.

 You know. These kind of responses just piss me off to no end!

So just because you do not have a High End rig and do not care about graphics, it's automatically fine how Bioware handled it?

I find that highly arrogant and egocentric! Totally disregarding and disrespecting a lot of people out there that DO HAVE High End rigs (some even build a new one specially for this game) and DO CARE about HighRes graphics!

That's why GOOD games have plenty of graphic settings to adjust the graphics to match what YOUR system can handle!

WE WANT the CHOICE ourselves to run the game with HighRes textures and DECIDE ourselves if our system can handle it or not!

Is that too much to ask?  I think not! Especially since the HighRes textures are already there!

I havea moderatly high rig and could probably run the game on a much higher setting. But bashing someone else for not having the oppertunity to play witch such a setting is retarded. The game is an MMO - its supposed to appeal to the mass's. not the handfful of the mass's that have the "high rig". If they did that, it would end up like AoC. The graphics are fine imo, there will be improvements over time...I understand your argument, but if you want things to look prettier get crysis 2. I would guess that its easier for them to slowly add better settings overtime, as oppose to havingf all these wacky settings at the get go and having even more issues to work out from different bugs from different settings. "o thats what beta's for", you can only beta so much....

 ?? You know your post is full of irony right?

So because there are people out there that do not have High End rigs, all other people that DO have HighEnd rigs just have to suck it up and suffer lower graphics??

Are you serious? Do you even hear what you are saying here and how ridiculous that sounds?

By your post and definition all games today should still be stuck in year 90's graphics, because there are still people out there with 10 year old PC's !

EverQuest 2 should remove the HighRes textures!

LOTRO should remove the HighRes texture client download! Remove DX10 and DX11 !

Age of Conan should remove their HighRes textures and DX10!

In other words... pretty much every other MMO out there (some even over 7 years old) should remove all High Graphic settings, because there are people out there that cannot run them on these settings!

/SIGH

You just don't get it. Look at the sub numbers for EQ2... look at the sub numbers for LOTRO. Look at the Sub numbers for Age of Conan..... BTW, all of these games are free to play now. 

 

Now, do me a favor and look at the sub numbers of WoW.... which is not free to play I might add. 

 

You know why WoW is higher? Low poly count. They keep the game low so more people can play it. You may not like it but it's a decision you must make as a developer. You can't understand that because you're looking from your point of view and not taking theirs into account. 

 

If you don't like the decision they have made.. you have every right to leave. I understand the decision and intend to keep playing. Both views are viable. 

 LOTRO was a huge success for several years! Turbine started slacking on regular updates (focus on DDO free2play conversion) that costs them sub numbers! And now after the Hybrid Free2Play it's still a huge success! Sorry to burst your bubble!

EverQuest 2 is doing just fine and has plenty of loyal subscribers.

The reasons why these games went Free2Play wasn't because of them having High Graphic Settings!  That's just retarded!

As all the games I listed you are able to downscale their graphics to the point you can still run them on a 10 year old rig!

No... and you fail to mention my entire argument. The reason why WoW is so popular and the other games have not.. and will not touch it is due to the lower end visuals/low system requirements. It the reason why you see incremental updates and not engines rehauls from WoW. They know that the more people that can access your game, the more subs you'll have. The more subs, the more money. 

 

I don't care about the sucess of LOTRO, EQ2, or AOC. I know that they are not, and never will be as popular as WoW, which is what most developers want... due to the higher settings available. If Bioware choices to go more the WoW route and make their game accessible to the larger audience over pleasing the graphic buffs... then so be it. 

 

Like I said, you have the right to not play. 

 WoW's success was not because of the poor cartoony graphics!

It was the TIME it released. And it was the litterly INSANE marketing machine of Blizzard that made it a success at that time.

If WoW would release today, it will never reach the amount of subs like it did back in 2004.

It was all about timing! Nothing more! Nothing less!

Originally posted by Praetalus

Originally posted by JeroKane

Originally posted by Praetalus

Originally posted by JeroKane

Originally posted by Joshua69

Originally posted by JeroKane

Originally posted by lizardbones

Since this wasn't really an issue for me, I think they handled it fine. I never thought the graphics looked all that bad. Of course, I'm not running a high end rig so high end settings would probably just tank my system.

 You know. These kind of responses just piss me off to no end!

So just because you do not have a High End rig and do not care about graphics, it's automatically fine how Bioware handled it?

I find that highly arrogant and egocentric! Totally disregarding and disrespecting a lot of people out there that DO HAVE High End rigs (some even build a new one specially for this game) and DO CARE about HighRes graphics!

That's why GOOD games have plenty of graphic settings to adjust the graphics to match what YOUR system can handle!

WE WANT the CHOICE ourselves to run the game with HighRes textures and DECIDE ourselves if our system can handle it or not!

Is that too much to ask?  I think not! Especially since the HighRes textures are already there!

I havea moderatly high rig and could probably run the game on a much higher setting. But bashing someone else for not having the oppertunity to play witch such a setting is retarded. The game is an MMO - its supposed to appeal to the mass's. not the handfful of the mass's that have the "high rig". If they did that, it would end up like AoC. The graphics are fine imo, there will be improvements over time...I understand your argument, but if you want things to look prettier get crysis 2. I would guess that its easier for them to slowly add better settings overtime, as oppose to havingf all these wacky settings at the get go and having even more issues to work out from different bugs from different settings. "o thats what beta's for", you can only beta so much....

 ?? You know your post is full of irony right?

So because there are people out there that do not have High End rigs, all other people that DO have HighEnd rigs just have to suck it up and suffer lower graphics??

Are you serious? Do you even hear what you are saying here and how ridiculous that sounds?

By your post and definition all games today should still be stuck in year 90's graphics, because there are still people out there with 10 year old PC's !

EverQuest 2 should remove the HighRes textures!

LOTRO should remove the HighRes texture client download! Remove DX10 and DX11 !

Age of Conan should remove their HighRes textures and DX10!

In other words... pretty much every other MMO out there (some even over 7 years old) should remove all High Graphic settings, because there are people out there that cannot run them on these settings!

/SIGH

You just don't get it. Look at the sub numbers for EQ2... look at the sub numbers for LOTRO. Look at the Sub numbers for Age of Conan..... BTW, all of these games are free to play now. 

 

Now, do me a favor and look at the sub numbers of WoW.... which is not free to play I might add. 

 

You know why WoW is higher? Low poly count. They keep the game low so more people can play it. You may not like it but it's a decision you must make as a developer. You can't understand that because you're looking from your point of view and not taking theirs into account. 

 

If you don't like the decision they have made.. you have every right to leave. I understand the decision and intend to keep playing. Both views are viable. 

 LOTRO was a huge success for several years! Turbine started slacking on regular updates (focus on DDO free2play conversion) that costs them sub numbers! And now after the Hybrid Free2Play it's still a huge success! Sorry to burst your bubble!

EverQuest 2 is doing just fine and has plenty of loyal subscribers.

The reasons why these games went Free2Play wasn't because of them having High Graphic Settings!  That's just retarded!

As all the games I listed you are able to downscale their graphics to the point you can still run them on a 10 year old rig!

No... and you fail to mention my entire argument. The reason why WoW is so popular and the other games have not.. and will not touch it is due to the lower end visuals/low system requirements. It the reason why you see incremental updates and not engines rehauls from WoW. They know that the more people that can access your game, the more subs you'll have. The more subs, the more money. 

 

I don't care about the sucess of LOTRO, EQ2, or AOC. I know that they are not, and never will be as popular as WoW, which is what most developers want... due to the higher settings available. If Bioware choices to go more the WoW route and make their game accessible to the larger audience over pleasing the graphic buffs... then so be it. 

 

Like I said, you have the right to not play. 

Ummmmmmmmmm.............what?

I don't even know where to begin with an arguement that a game is not popular/successful due to SCALEABLE graphic settings based off of a systems hardware monitored by the user.

Originally posted by Praetalus

Originally posted by Paragus1

Originally posted by Praetalus

You just don't get it. Look at the sub numbers for EQ2... look at the sub numbers for LOTRO. Look at the Sub numbers for Age of Conan..... BTW, all of these games are free to play now. 

 

Now, do me a favor and look at the sub numbers of WoW.... which is not free to play I might add. 

 

You know why WoW is higher? Low poly count. They keep the game low so more people can play it. You may not like it but it's a decision you must make as a developer. You can't understand that because you're looking from your point of view and not taking theirs into account. 

 

If you don't like the decision they have made.. you have every right to leave. I understand the decision and intend to keep playing. Both views are viable. 

 

WoW's high subcriptions are not because of its low polycount.   By that same logic Everquest 1 would have more subs than anything else out there.   All of those other games have serious flaws and it has nothing to do with their visuals.

Don't get me wrong, I am a huge believe that gameplay is far more important than graphics.    They don't make or break a game usually, but between misleading people and then basically telling them thay can't figure out their own graphical settings is silly.

Not at all. Eq1 is an old game that not many new school players know about as WoW brought a lot of current gamers to the market in the first place. Once they were here, EQ1 was too old to draw any interest. What I saying is that by keeping your system requirements low, you have a larger audience, you agree?

 

By having a larger audience, or more people to play the game, you have higher subs. If you don't agree, please explain how WoW has remained at the top of the subs charts when so many other games are free to play?

WoW has better textures than Swtor, this was posted in the swtor forums few weeks ago: 

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r277/UnruheEndlos/TORWOWComparison.jpg

Originally posted by Mandalore

And the perfomance thing is a lie.

I can run SWTOR and RIFT at the same time with 40-60 FPS. Both on max. settings (SWTOR 8xAA via Ini mod)

Your comment is a lie.  Therefore.. you sir are a...

Just because you are not experiencing the performance issues does not mean other people are not experiencing them.

It truly pisses me off when arrogant little people like this comment.. well I'm not having the issue, thus it's not happening.

Originally posted by Praetalus

Originally posted by Paragus1

Originally posted by Praetalus

You just don't get it. Look at the sub numbers for EQ2... look at the sub numbers for LOTRO. Look at the Sub numbers for Age of Conan..... BTW, all of these games are free to play now. 

 

Now, do me a favor and look at the sub numbers of WoW.... which is not free to play I might add. 

 

You know why WoW is higher? Low poly count. They keep the game low so more people can play it. You may not like it but it's a decision you must make as a developer. You can't understand that because you're looking from your point of view and not taking theirs into account. 

 

If you don't like the decision they have made.. you have every right to leave. I understand the decision and intend to keep playing. Both views are viable. 

 

WoW's high subcriptions are not because of its low polycount.   By that same logic Everquest 1 would have more subs than anything else out there.   All of those other games have serious flaws and it has nothing to do with their visuals.

Don't get me wrong, I am a huge believe that gameplay is far more important than graphics.    They don't make or break a game usually, but between misleading people and then basically telling them thay can't figure out their own graphical settings is silly.

Not at all. Eq1 is an old game that not many new school players know about as WoW brought a lot of current gamers to the market in the first place. Once they were here, EQ1 was too old to draw any interest. What I saying is that by keeping your system requirements low, you have a larger audience, you agree?

 

By having a larger audience, or more people to play the game, you have higher subs. If you don't agree, please explain how WoW has remained at the top of the subs charts when so many other games are free to play?

Right time, right place, excellent marketing and a well established franchise............Warcraft.

/back on topic

Dear players who think this is some sort of conspiracy or that Bioware Lied about the reason the Hi Rez graphics are not in the game.

Really?

The rest of us are scratching our heads, we all can believe the reasons Bioware gave because they are logical, they make sense.  Lets apply some deductive reasoning and some logical thought to this whole process to realize that they are telling the truth and that a huge company like Bioware has many many departments, so its absolutely freaking stupid to generalize the entire game developer, let alone even a department.

So Please stop with the "I used to love Bioware until blah blah blah" Guess what kiddos a lot of the people who made Bauldars Gate dont' work at Bioware any more, companies change employees, they are not people.

Let me re state that.  Companies are not people.

Thank you for your time.

Please feel free to continue with the rants about conspiracies and how we're all gullible for not believing.

Originally posted by Forumtalker

Right time, right place, excellent marketing and a well established franchise............Warcraft.

 

/back on topic

Well established Franchise?

like Ultima was?

like Warhammer?

compare the people who played WC3 or WC2 vs the number who played WoW.

Guess what thats a huge difference! 

I'm going to say that the established IP part doesn't really effect it much at all.

Originally posted by Laughing-man

Originally posted by Forumtalker

Right time, right place, excellent marketing and a well established franchise............Warcraft.

 

/back on topic

Well established Franchise?

like Ultima was?

like Warhammer?

compare the people who played WC3 or WC2 vs the number who played WoW.

Guess what thats a huge difference! 

I'm going to say that the established IP part doesn't really effect it much at all.

Not bad your batting .250 listed four items that made WoW great not 1 that you chose to nit pick and derail this thread over.

It is bait and switch since they didt adress that issue befor people noticed it. If they had sent mail to everyone that preorder the game and letting em know this and give em an option to cancel theyr preoder it would not have been bait and switch.

But Bioware didt do this, they kept this silence until people started to notice it.

I never knew as i didt play this game under beta, i just thought it looked crappy.

I have no idea hwo to blame, its either theyr engine or they got crappy coders, anyway Bioware did take a hugh hit from me.

Originally posted by Forumtalker

Not bad your batting .250 listed four items that made WoW great not 1 that you chose to nit pick and derail this thread over.

 

 

No offense but I don't understand what half of what you are saying means...

However, I can assume you are complaining that I only addressed part of someones reasoning as to why WoW is successful and I didn't address the whole thing if I was going to bother derailing the thread further.

Well since YOU derailed the thread and I was responding to it, I'll just reply to your reply.

Its ok to comment on PART of something and not comment on the whole of it.  I was disagreeing with only a part of the statement.  I personally think that the low poly count and the tight play controls really do help WoW a great deal, however I think the whole "the IP helped them" arguement is simply a pile of bull.  Sorry.

Originally posted by Praetalus

Originally posted by StSynner

Originally posted by MattNe

Its marketing..I mean seriously, have you ever gotten a BigMac that looked as it did on TV?

 

That defense doesn't hold water in a visual medium. 

There is a HUUUUUUUUGE difference in advertising a game that HAS high res functionality on a top tier beast-mode system so you can show off the pretty graphics and advertising a game that has NO high res funcionality in the same manner. This is  called "bait and switch" and IS illegal. If someone were so inclined they could probably get their cash back for false advertisement.

No... this is not the typical "bait and switch". Bait and switch occurs when a consumer is baited to a certain product, and when they go to buy it, they're told it's not available and are pointed to another product. 

 

And they could not get their money back for "false advertisement" by screen shots and videos as the "Final Product may differ". My god people. I love how this happens and everyone all of a sudden knows the law. 

 

Practice more law IMO.

Software companies that initially offer software products or services for free (often under a "Beta" moniker) and at a later point make parts or all of the functionality available in the paid product without communicating that intention from the start are said to employ bait-and-switch tactics.

So they had high res graphical functionality in the FREE open beta. Then when the game went LIVE and people had to PAY for it... they took them out.

this is one big reason peoplle are moving away from p2p and go to various alternative you pay 60 $ and then find out they lowered the texture setting because of lag issue!after that everybody wonder why gamer are going to social game oor games like lol.the fact that rthere is no upfront cost makes it very tempting cause if the game isnt up to the standard it was published to be he can just move on but on a game that is 60$you wont buy another title you cant afford it so if this doesnt do you ll go back to wow or go to various free social solution of f2p game!

bioware isnt thonlly one at fault here the whole industry in general have a tendancy to do this check some game were promised with dx 10 or 11 they got dx 9 3etc etc a lot of game have done these error no wonder the gamer are moving further and further away from p2p ,they dont go to other p2p titlle they move to simple social game!the whole industry gets hurt when something like swtor had to do happen!

Originally posted by Praetalus

Originally posted by StSynner

Originally posted by MattNe

Its marketing..I mean seriously, have you ever gotten a BigMac that looked as it did on TV?

 

That defense doesn't hold water in a visual medium. 

There is a HUUUUUUUUGE difference in advertising a game that HAS high res functionality on a top tier beast-mode system so you can show off the pretty graphics and advertising a game that has NO high res funcionality in the same manner. This is  called "bait and switch" and IS illegal. If someone were so inclined they could probably get their cash back for false advertisement.

No... this is not the typical "bait and switch". Bait and switch occurs when a consumer is baited to a certain product, and when they go to buy it, they're told it's not available and are pointed to another product. 

 

And they could not get their money back for "false advertisement" by screen shots and videos as the "Final Product may differ". My god people. I love how this happens and everyone all of a sudden knows the law. 

 

Practice more law IMO.

Software companies that initially offer software products or services for free (often under a "Beta" moniker) and at a later point make parts or all of the functionality available in the paid product without communicating that intention from the start are said to employ bait-and-switch tactics.

So they had high res graphical functionality in the FREE open beta. Then when the game went LIVE and people had to PAY for it... they took them out.

Practice more law IMO.

Software companies that initially offer software products or services for free (often under a "Beta" moniker) and at a later point make parts or all of the functionality available in the paid product without communicating that intention from the start are said to employ bait-and-switch tactics.

So they had high res graphical functionality in the FREE open beta. Then when the game went LIVE and people had to PAY for it... they took them out.

"Bait-and-switch is a form of fraud, most commonly used in retail sales but also applicable to other contexts. First, customers are "baited" by advertising for a product or service at a low price; second, the customers discover that the advertised good is not available and are "switched" to a costlier product."

Taken from Wikipedia

AS the cost didn't change and the product changed only a little (which there is a warning that the game may change over time on the box) then no, this is not a bait and switch by definition.

Originally posted by Laughing-man

Dear players who think this is some sort of conspiracy or that Bioware Lied about the reason the Hi Rez graphics are not in the game.

Really?

The rest of us are scratching our heads, we all can believe the reasons Bioware gave because they are logical, they make sense.  Lets apply some deductive reasoning and some logical thought to this whole process to realize that they are telling the truth and that a huge company like Bioware has many many departments, so its absolutely freaking stupid to generalize the entire game developer, let alone even a department.

So Please stop with the "I used to love Bioware until blah blah blah" Guess what kiddos a lot of the people who made Bauldars Gate dont' work at Bioware any more, companies change employees, they are not people.

Let me re state that.  Companies are not people.

Thank you for your time.

Please feel free to continue with the rants about conspiracies and how we're all gullible for not believing.

Good point my friend. Wasted here unfortunately.

According to most people here (Not me). Bioware was just out for their initial game purchase for a quick profit... lying to them about everything and then taking away the textures. Bioware should be sued and taken to court and refund everyone who's not happy. 

I wish that they would just quit playing and leave the game for the rest of us who actually enjoy it. As far the graphics, I think they look great. 

Originally posted by StSynner

 

Practice more law IMO.

Software companies that initially offer software products or services for free (often under a "Beta" moniker) and at a later point make parts or all of the functionality available in the paid product without communicating that intention from the start are said to employ bait-and-switch tactics.

So they had high res graphical functionality in the FREE open beta. Then when the game went LIVE and people had to PAY for it... they took them out.

Yes and that was work done that is not being used, how in anyway does Bioware benefit from that? How does any company "profit" off wasted effort? That's the question I have for a lot of those going overboard here with their rage.

I am not particularly concerned with the graphics. They seem ok to me. I wish the gameplay was a bit more inspiring though.

As for lying etc after Funcom and Mythic........yeah.......the lying bar is far far higher that this lol.

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by StSynner

 

Practice more law IMO.

Software companies that initially offer software products or services for free (often under a "Beta" moniker) and at a later point make parts or all of the functionality available in the paid product without communicating that intention from the start are said to employ bait-and-switch tactics.

So they had high res graphical functionality in the FREE open beta. Then when the game went LIVE and people had to PAY for it... they took them out.

Yes and that was work done that is not being used, how in anyway does Bioware benefit from that? How does any company "profit" off wasted effort? That's the question I have for a lot of those going overboard here with their rage.

 

They are mad they don't care if there is a good justifyable reason they just want what they want when they want it, gosh darn it!