DOAC is still a sandbox game* in a lot of ways*

I would say try ryzom, i loved the game, but the community is small*good and bad*

Originally posted by SpottyGekko

Originally posted by pierth

Originally posted by RajCaj

The reason the big publishers won't touch a sandbox is because the audience is too small to warrent a 10-100 million dollar project.  They would rather risk 10 million on a WOW clone with a DOWNSIDE of 300k subs, instead of spending that same money on a sandbox that has an UPSIDE of around 300k subs.

Source? I have no doubt in my mind that if a big name publisher made a sandbox with the polish and accessibility of WoW as well as the standard advertising and hype that it would do at least as well as the WoW clones- even better if it drew from an established IP. The only reason why SWG didn't become the WoW of sandboxes was because of the horrible launch and eventually $OE f*cking the whole thing up. Look at how many people play Zynga games- you're really telling me that with that many people out there playing the -Ville games among others that there's no room to bring that idea to the next level and add tools for the more creative players to add things?

 

It's just short-sighted and lazy.

Nobody really knows how big or small the audience for a good sandbox (or even sandbox/themepark hybrid) game will be.

 

We might get some idea if Archeage ever launches in the West, but even then it's leaning toward FFA-PVP might be a limiting factor on sub numbers.

 

The biggest obstacle is that the numbers are totally unknown, therefore it's a huge financial risk...

That I can agree with- there's certainly a risk, but it's just ignorant to say that the audience is too small, because that's unknown which is why I wanted to comment on his post.

Originally posted by Jakdstripper

no idea bout TSW but Tera and Guild wars will definately not be sandboxes. Tera i know for sure cause i've played it and i'm pretty sure GW2 will be exactly like GW1 with better graphics.

 

 

 

I stopped reading right there. You are obviously speculating without researching.

GW2 will be ***NOTHING*** like GW1!! Please go learn more about GW2 and get your facts....errr OPINIONS straight.

I WILL see you in GW2 when it releases. :)

Please do not speculate, it really upsets the facts about games in production. There is alot of info and judging by your comment, you really did not look into GW2 at all. If you played all the others you will Love GW2.

EDIT: Here you go....

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/guild-wars-2-mass-info-t25557.html

Wow, I think I will actually last longer in SWTOR than its fans! :) Probably because I haven't put that many hours into it.

As a result, I haven't been able to finish the content, so I might sub for a second month to see it through.

It's really not a game many will get a high amount of /played though. More of a single run-through business. 

I was where you were a few years back but I have done a full circle.

The problem was that I was looking for an MMO that didn't exist.  I then returned back to single player games and the odd PS3 RPG. 

After getting over my dissapointment I returned and picked up Fallen Earth which I really enjoyed and now popped over to SWTOR.  Somehow knowing that there isn't an MMO that is a true sandbox game without 'go and kill X' mobs etc.  I have started to enjoy MMO's again as I look at them for a short term (3-6 months) gaming fix rather than trying to find an epic MMO where I can really make a difference and build my own corner in the universe. 

I personally think single player RPG games are really making inroads and we even started up old pen and paper games as that is truly bespoke.

The MMO genre really needs a game that bucks the trend but problem is no one will take that much of a risk.  For now I play through them like a walk in the park, basically checking out the scenary.

p.s. Fallen Earth may be something you could look at.  Its not truly sandbox but very much free roam with massive crafting trees etc.

See my favourite MMOs are DAOC and EVE

ones a themepark the others a sandbox

It's not so much sandboxes themselves that are the problem with modern AAA mmos.  It's sandboxes that try so hard to be WOW that is the problem.  Instead of growing their own audience they try and steal wows, but theres more people out there that don't play wow than play it, seems odd to me to take that approach.

I see what GW2 and TSW are doing as encouraging, sure they are still themeparks, but GW2 is giving a more freeform experience in leveling (and getting rid of the trinity), TSW is giving a more freeform experience in character speccing (and getting rid of leveling altogether).  Both should have better PVP than the "wow standard" also.

for newish sandbox game, I recommend giving perpetuum a try.

Originally posted by pierth

Originally posted by RajCaj

The reason the big publishers won't touch a sandbox is because the audience is too small to warrent a 10-100 million dollar project.  They would rather risk 10 million on a WOW clone with a DOWNSIDE of 300k subs, instead of spending that same money on a sandbox that has an UPSIDE of around 300k subs.

Source? I have no doubt in my mind that if a big name publisher made a sandbox with the polish and accessibility of WoW as well as the standard advertising and hype that it would do at least as well as the WoW clones- even better if it drew from an established IP. The only reason why SWG didn't become the WoW of sandboxes was because of the horrible launch and eventually $OE f*cking the whole thing up. Look at how many people play Zynga games- you're really telling me that with that many people out there playing the -Ville games among others that there's no room to bring that idea to the next level and add tools for the more creative players to add things?

 

It's just short-sighted and lazy.

I don't have a source other than the collection of knowledge about MMOs over the last 10 years, and my business experience from school and practice. 

EVE is regarded as one of the generes most successful examples of a sandbox game and it sits somewhere around 300k subscribers.  Ultima Online topped out in around 2000 at around 200k subs (in the 2000 guiness book of world records)

What we regard as traditional "virtual world" MMORPGs are NOT for the every day gamer.  Blizzard said so much in one of their early development interviews.  When they set out to make a MMO based on the Warcraft IP, they said one of the things they wanted to focus on in their game was increasing the accessibility to ALL gamers.  They wanted to lower the learning curve, reduce the time commitment, and remove other barriers to entry that kept many casual gamers away from MMORPGs.

Blizzard recognized that the gaming industries most profitable pricing methodology (Box Sales + Reoccuring Monthly Fees) was being wasited on gamings most niche genere...MMORPGs.  If you build it, they will come....and they did.  Blizzard succeeded at making one of the first casual MMORPGs.  I'm not denying that marketing and polish helped seal the deal for Blizzard....but make no mistake, the reason Blizzard pulled in over 10x the subs that Ever Quest did WAS because of the audience they created & marketed the game to.

You reference the millions and millions of Zynga gamers.  Look at Zynga games....they are very simple and cheap gaming experiences that you can pick up and put down in 20-30 minute play cycles.  The reason they have so many customers is because they appeal to the casual gaming audience....which is the largest subsection of the gamer pie.  There are more people that can wrap their heads around Angry Birds than a game like EVE.  There are more people that have 30 minutes or so to spend on Farmville than there are people that have a few hours to dump into a game like SWG.

And by the way, SWG failed because the developers looked at what WOW was doing (pulling in casual gamers from other game generes by making the first casual MMORPG) and quickly abandoned the Sandbox features of the game in the hopes of increasing subscribers & revenue.  They just didn't arbitrarily f*ck up the whole thing cause they wanted to.  There was a reason behind implementing the CU & NGE patches.

Look up the Blue Oceans marketing theory....Blizzard created a new market for casual MMORPGs, and being first to market (and having a superior product) has allowed them to fend off all of the copy cats that have followed suit....including the revised version of SWG.

Originally posted by RajCaj

,<snip>

Look up the Blue Oceans marketing theory....Blizzard created a new market for casual MMORPGs, and being first to market (and having a superior product) has allowed them to fend off all of the copy cats that have followed suit....including the revised version of SWG.

And having a ready-made fanbase of a few million WarCraft RTS fans didn't hurt them either ;)

Originally posted by Quenchster

Originally posted by Nizur

Originally posted by NBlitz
@Teala
Come on Teala, have some sympathy.
They (those jumping out of the TORtanic) now know better and I believe they shouldn't be kicked even further when they're down.
How it all is going down speaks for itself.
Many are having enough humble pie. There's no need to cram some more down their throats :)

TORtanic... hahahaha!

Just yesterday, I found this. Fitting.

Wow... That was just... lol

Originally posted by pierth

Originally posted by RajCaj

The reason the big publishers won't touch a sandbox is because the audience is too small to warrent a 10-100 million dollar project.  They would rather risk 10 million on a WOW clone with a DOWNSIDE of 300k subs, instead of spending that same money on a sandbox that has an UPSIDE of around 300k subs.

Source? I have no doubt in my mind that if a big name publisher made a sandbox with the polish and accessibility of WoW as well as the standard advertising and hype that it would do at least as well as the WoW clones- even better if it drew from an established IP. The only reason why SWG didn't become the WoW of sandboxes was because of the horrible launch and eventually $OE f*cking the whole thing up. Look at how many people play Zynga games- you're really telling me that with that many people out there playing the -Ville games among others that there's no room to bring that idea to the next level and add tools for the more creative players to add things?

 

It's just short-sighted and lazy.

Source? You have no information, just like RajCaj. Don't have a double standard. If you ask the other person for source, you should provide it to support YOUR claims.

Neither of you have any hard information and it is pure guess work. If that is the case, since no one knows, the risk is HIGH and you can't blame developers of not investing 10s of millions of dollars.

Would people please stop with the stupid claims about how no major developer or publisher is going to take on a sandbox?  If Tecmo-Koei isn't a major developer, in spite of about 30 years of experience in making games and several hundred million dollars in annual revenue, then you've got an awfully narrow definition of "major" game developers.

Originally posted by Quizzical

Would people please stop with the stupid claims about how no major developer or publisher is going to take on a sandbox?  If Tecmo-Koei isn't a major developer, in spite of about 30 years of experience in making games and several hundred million dollars in annual revenue, then you've got an awfully narrow definition of "major" game developers.

Remember, on this site major developer is defined as P2P and/or Western Developers.

F2P / Eastern Developers need not apply.

I was checking around, UWO is largely ignored, not just by western players but the larger gaming media community.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by pierth

Originally posted by RajCaj

The reason the big publishers won't touch a sandbox is because the audience is too small to warrent a 10-100 million dollar project.  They would rather risk 10 million on a WOW clone with a DOWNSIDE of 300k subs, instead of spending that same money on a sandbox that has an UPSIDE of around 300k subs.

Source? I have no doubt in my mind that if a big name publisher made a sandbox with the polish and accessibility of WoW as well as the standard advertising and hype that it would do at least as well as the WoW clones- even better if it drew from an established IP. The only reason why SWG didn't become the WoW of sandboxes was because of the horrible launch and eventually $OE f*cking the whole thing up. Look at how many people play Zynga games- you're really telling me that with that many people out there playing the -Ville games among others that there's no room to bring that idea to the next level and add tools for the more creative players to add things?

 

It's just short-sighted and lazy.

 

Source? You have no information, just like RajCaj. Don't have a double standard. If you ask the other person for source, you should provide it to support YOUR claims.

Neither of you have any hard information and it is pure guess work. If that is the case, since no one knows, the risk is HIGH and you can't blame developers of not investing 10s of millions of dollars.

The first person stated it as a fact the other "there is no doubt in my mind" so it's an opinion. And my opinion would be the same, I find it highly unlikely the sandbox style would be unable to ever go above 1mill subs with the right formula.

Just like I find it highly unlikely we are alone in the universe, doesn't necessarily mean I state it as a fact that we aren't.

However with a slight modification to the first post it could very well be a fact "The reason the big publishers won't touch a sandbox is because they think the audience is too small to warrent a 10-100 million dollar project."

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Quizzical

Would people please stop with the stupid claims about how no major developer or publisher is going to take on a sandbox?  If Tecmo-Koei isn't a major developer, in spite of about 30 years of experience in making games and several hundred million dollars in annual revenue, then you've got an awfully narrow definition of "major" game developers.

Remember, on this site major developer is defined as P2P and/or Western Developers.

F2P / Eastern Developers need not apply.

I was checking around, UWO is largely ignored, not just by western players but the larger gaming media community.

 

Major developer means P2P only?  So EverQuest II, Champions Online, and LotRO are now minor indie titles?

And Western only?  So the various Mario and Zelda games are just minor indie titles that happened to sell millions of copies in the US alone?

It's one thing to not want to play a game.  It's entirely another to insist that it doesn't exist.  I don't play SWTOR, but I wouldn't go around insisting that there aren't any Star Wars MMORPGs.

Originally posted by dlld

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by pierth

Originally posted by RajCaj

The reason the big publishers won't touch a sandbox is because the audience is too small to warrent a 10-100 million dollar project.  They would rather risk 10 million on a WOW clone with a DOWNSIDE of 300k subs, instead of spending that same money on a sandbox that has an UPSIDE of around 300k subs.

Source? I have no doubt in my mind that if a big name publisher made a sandbox with the polish and accessibility of WoW as well as the standard advertising and hype that it would do at least as well as the WoW clones- even better if it drew from an established IP. The only reason why SWG didn't become the WoW of sandboxes was because of the horrible launch and eventually $OE f*cking the whole thing up. Look at how many people play Zynga games- you're really telling me that with that many people out there playing the -Ville games among others that there's no room to bring that idea to the next level and add tools for the more creative players to add things?

 

It's just short-sighted and lazy.

 

Source? You have no information, just like RajCaj. Don't have a double standard. If you ask the other person for source, you should provide it to support YOUR claims.

Neither of you have any hard information and it is pure guess work. If that is the case, since no one knows, the risk is HIGH and you can't blame developers of not investing 10s of millions of dollars.

The first person stated it as a fact the other "there is no doubt in my mind" so it's an opinion. And my opinion would be the same, I find it highly unlikely the sandbox style would be unable to ever go above 1mill subs with the right formula.

Just like I find it highly unlikely we are alone in the universe, doesn't necessarily mean I state it as a fact that we aren't.

However with a slight modification to the first post it could very well be a fact "The reason the big publishers won't touch a sandbox is because they think the audience is too small to warrent a 10-100 million dollar project."

BUT you ask him for a source. The SAME should apply to you whether you are the first or the second to put forth an opinion.

If you don't have any sources, just state your opinion as that. Don't think your opinion is any more valid than his since neither of you have any source.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by dlld

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by pierth

Originally posted by RajCaj

The reason the big publishers won't touch a sandbox is because the audience is too small to warrent a 10-100 million dollar project.  They would rather risk 10 million on a WOW clone with a DOWNSIDE of 300k subs, instead of spending that same money on a sandbox that has an UPSIDE of around 300k subs.

Source? I have no doubt in my mind that if a big name publisher made a sandbox with the polish and accessibility of WoW as well as the standard advertising and hype that it would do at least as well as the WoW clones- even better if it drew from an established IP. The only reason why SWG didn't become the WoW of sandboxes was because of the horrible launch and eventually $OE f*cking the whole thing up. Look at how many people play Zynga games- you're really telling me that with that many people out there playing the -Ville games among others that there's no room to bring that idea to the next level and add tools for the more creative players to add things?

 

It's just short-sighted and lazy.

 

Source? You have no information, just like RajCaj. Don't have a double standard. If you ask the other person for source, you should provide it to support YOUR claims.

Neither of you have any hard information and it is pure guess work. If that is the case, since no one knows, the risk is HIGH and you can't blame developers of not investing 10s of millions of dollars.

The first person stated it as a fact the other "there is no doubt in my mind" so it's an opinion. And my opinion would be the same, I find it highly unlikely the sandbox style would be unable to ever go above 1mill subs with the right formula.

Just like I find it highly unlikely we are alone in the universe, doesn't necessarily mean I state it as a fact that we aren't.

However with a slight modification to the first post it could very well be a fact "The reason the big publishers won't touch a sandbox is because they think the audience is too small to warrent a 10-100 million dollar project."

BUT you ask him for a source. The SAME should apply to you whether you are the first or the second to put forth an opinion.

If you don't have any sources, just state your opinion as that. Don't think your opinion is any more valid than his since neither of you have any source.

 

Thing is on this issue of sandbox I really dont THINK it has anything to do with possible customers. I THINK the demand would be there if it was in the market place. I THINK the real reason is simply because it costs more to develop and maintain...nothing more.

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

 

Thing is on this issue of sandbox I really dont THINK it has anything to do with possible customers. I THINK the demand would be there if it was in the market place. I THINK the real reason is simply because it costs more to develop and maintain...nothing more.

 

What you THINK is fine and dany. However, that is probably NOT enough for any investor to spend 10s of millions of dollars. The marketing company newszoo did lots of research on MMORPGs. I have seen reports about the growing trend (yes, with numbers, not wishy-washy OPINIONS) of F2P and things like that.

I wonder if they have info about the issue of hard core vs casual.

In fact, let me ask you this. Are YOU willing to bet 5 years of your career on making a hard core sandbox MMORPG?

Even the themepark games are not really themeparks anymore, they are the local church carnival. 

As for the sandbox debate I think many people really do not understand the concept they only think ganking, full loot pvp.  That is not what a sandbox enviroment is.  It is not having the entire game scripted out for you.  Today maybe the masses need everything pre-planned for them in advance with no work required, I am not sure.