Originally posted by Vhaln

Those three games advertise a different type of endgame.  From eachother, and from WoW/Rift/TOR.

 

I don't know how true it'll turn out to be, but I don't think the problem is lack endgame content, so much as type of endgame content, or endgame content diversity.  Which is to say, those game may not offer more content, but will hopefully appeal to players who want a different sort of endgame.  Even if it is similarly light at release.

GW2 all in all has no end game, its PvP from what I can tell is a lot like SWTOR's is now (Anyone can do it and everyone is thrown in at level 10-50) with the exception of endgame WPvP for SWTOR, heavily casual in that it takes the same amount of time to get from 10-11 as it does 54-55.  People will level find that there is less end game then even SWTOR and leave.

TSW and AA are sandbox games, AA from the looks of it seems to be a little like WoW  combat wise save for the combo system and it being a sandbox (With no major IP attacht) means that its more then likely to go at best the way of EvE.

Don't know all to much about TSW.

But as I said before if TOR and RIFT do not (In a year or so) have a good solid playing base of 1mil+ and 300k+ respectivly then the MMO genre is fucked IMO and no game will be able to ever again get over a million subs.

Who wonders that it is as it is?
It has the strengths and the weaknesses typical to Bioware and Mythic is only a name and no more an experienced studio having made the best fantasy mmo pvp game off all time.
I dont see myself spending more than 3 months worth of money on it but i am still not 50 and probably its one more month till that as i play only 2 hours a day now and take it easy.
Then in around 3 months TSW is out, probably only a few months more til Mechwarrior Online.

Originally posted by Jenuviel

The endgame stuff is really why I've decided just to skip the game for a year or two. Literally the only part of the game I'm interested in is the story (specifically class/companion stories) . I don't enjoy pvp or raiding instances even a little bit, so it's all about the questing and leveling for me (journey stuff, rather than destination stuff). Given how cost prohibitive it must be to produce not only quest arcs with branching pathways, but fully-voiced quest arcs with branching pathways, there's just no way BioWare could conceivably produce story content quickly enough to sustain me for long. Ultimately, I decided I'd be better off giving them a significant amount of time to add stuff, work out bugs and shed some population before I pick the game up at a later date.

There are 8 class stories in the game. It roughly takes 1 month of average playtime to complete 1 class story. Since you're likely to be faster subsequent go arounds, since you'll either skip the side quests or rush through them, it'll take probably around 6 months of hard playing to experience all the content.

If that's worth subbing for right now or not is up to you, but Bioware already has a content patch coming this week.

Originally posted by DarkPony

Thanks for the insight in your beta experiences. It explains a lot about the current issues with world pvp. I guess they are simply not done yet; they ran out of development time / funds and hadn't even properly tested the world pvp content which the game shipped with. Curious how quickly they'll be fixing this.

 

Considering what happened with Warhammer I'm afraid that answer may be never.

This is a starwars game w/o any space...  The "loading screens" between planets do not count in my eyes.  No flying of any kind.  I know people hate the idea of flying mounts, but this is a SciFi MMO Starwars....  They fly in the movies, you should fly in the game.  In fact, entire zones should REQUIRE flying mounts to get around (Think TBC zones that more or less required it).

StarWars was about walkers, tanks, flying craft, vehicles.... So much more than just a guy running around with a blaster or light saber.

(Directed at OP)

Ah man...

Reading your post literally made me sad.  I know how psyched you were for this game, and I always enjoyed reading your posts even if I did disagree with them most of the time.  So I feel for you that the game didn't live up to your expectations.  And then at the end you have to put that horribly sad pony pic...you cut me deep lol :)

But yeah, that always sucks when you get to that point where you realize the game doesn't have anything left to offer.  And I totally agree with what you recommended in your other posts.  The fleet as the capital is just a terrible idea...makes the only social hub in the game into a horribly bland, utilitarian environment.

Oh well...we'll both just have to wait for the next big MMORPG :).

Originally posted by Painlezz

This is a starwars game w/o any space...  The "loading screens" between planets do not count in my eyes.  No flying of any kind.  I know people hate the idea of flying mounts, but this is a SciFi MMO Starwars....  They fly in the movies, you should fly in the game.  In fact, entire zones should REQUIRE flying mounts to get around (Think TBC zones that more or less required it).

StarWars was about walkers, tanks, flying craft, vehicles.... So much more than just a guy running around with a blaster or light saber.

This game is not based off the Starwars movies. It's based off the KOTOR universe which is based in the SW universe but not canon. You don't hear talks about midichlorians do you?

When it comes down to it,putting 'haters' and 'fanbois' aside..

I think we all really wanted this game to do well,it was so largely hyped and everyone is dying to get an MMO they can REALLY sink their teeth into,whens the last one where you actually COULD?.But once the curtain fell and we bit in,it yet again,fell short of a lot of our expectations.Some realised this early and became 'haters' to those who actually do like ToR and to those who maybe just didnt want to admit it or didnt realise right away that the game is just another flash in the pan.

I know I feel let down and am becoming ever more hesitant about future MMO's (GW2,AA,TSW, et al) will any of them ever live up to their hype? Im really beginning to lose hope that they actually will :(

What I am hoping for is that Bioware was smart enough to already make all the future content, and will release it slowly over time. I hope they already have all the additional level 50 content, with all the voice acting just waiting to be patched into the game. I do not see how they would not have a huge chunk just waiting to be release. Hey, we all have out own little dreams =)

Originally posted by Creslin321

(Directed at OP)

Ah man...

Reading your post literally made me sad.  I know how psyched you were for this game, and I always enjoyed reading your posts even if I did disagree with them most of the time.  So I feel for you that the game didn't live up to your expectations.  And then at the end you have to put that horribly sad pony pic...you cut me deep lol :)

But yeah, that always sucks when you get to that point where you realize the game doesn't have anything left to offer.  And I totally agree with what you recommended in your other posts.  The fleet as the capital is just a terrible idea...makes the only social hub in the game into a horribly bland, utilitarian environment.

Oh well...we'll both just have to wait for the next big MMORPG :).

Yeah, I never got why they didn't make the capital cities the main hubs, Dromund kaas for imperials and coruscant for republic.  It would have been much better in every way.

Originally posted by Snaylor47

Originally posted by Vhaln

Those three games advertise a different type of endgame.  From eachother, and from WoW/Rift/TOR.

 

I don't know how true it'll turn out to be, but I don't think the problem is lack endgame content, so much as type of endgame content, or endgame content diversity.  Which is to say, those game may not offer more content, but will hopefully appeal to players who want a different sort of endgame.  Even if it is similarly light at release.

GW2 all in all has no end game, its PvP from what I can tell is a lot like SWTOR's is now (Anyone can do it and everyone is thrown in at level 10-50) with the exception of endgame WPvP for SWTOR, heavily casual in that it takes the same amount of time to get from 10-11 as it does 54-55.  People will level find that there is less end game then even SWTOR and leave.

 

TSW and AA are sandbox games, AA from the looks of it seems to be a little like WoW  combat wise save for the combo system and it being a sandbox (With no major IP attacht) means that its more then likely to go at best the way of EvE.

 

Don't know all to much about TSW.

 

But as I said before if TOR and RIFT do not (In a year or so) have a good solid playing base of 1mil+ and 300k+ respectivly then the MMO genre is fucked IMO and no game will be able to ever again get over a million subs.

I disagree with just about everything you just said, but only time will tell which of us is right :)

Originally posted by nate1980

Originally posted by Jenuviel

The endgame stuff is really why I've decided just to skip the game for a year or two. Literally the only part of the game I'm interested in is the story (specifically class/companion stories) . I don't enjoy pvp or raiding instances even a little bit, so it's all about the questing and leveling for me (journey stuff, rather than destination stuff). Given how cost prohibitive it must be to produce not only quest arcs with branching pathways, but fully-voiced quest arcs with branching pathways, there's just no way BioWare could conceivably produce story content quickly enough to sustain me for long. Ultimately, I decided I'd be better off giving them a significant amount of time to add stuff, work out bugs and shed some population before I pick the game up at a later date.

There are 8 class stories in the game. It roughly takes 1 month of average playtime to complete 1 class story. Since you're likely to be faster subsequent go arounds, since you'll either skip the side quests or rush through them, it'll take probably around 6 months of hard playing to experience all the content.

If that's worth subbing for right now or not is up to you, but Bioware already has a content patch coming this week.

Not everyone will want to do 70% of the same thing over again on the same planets with the same quests.  The class stories are nice but are only a portion of the game.  The rest is the exact same side quests.  Keyboard makers will love TOR due to all the broken space bars.  Please do not pretend that after the 2nd time around people will want to hear the same lines over and over and over.  

Originally posted by Vhaln

I disagree with just about everything you just said, but only time will tell which of us is right :)

 

TBH I am curious,

If TOR with its 10 or so dungeons that have level 50 mode plus hard and nightmare mode with 2 raids and another dungeon coming with content patch AND world PvP that is getting fixed isn't enought to get some people who I will not name to say, "You know what maybe this game won't go the route of WAR." Then what makes those same people think that the 3 games I mention will hold a large portion of peoples interest?

Originally posted by DarkPony

Originally posted by toddze

Originally posted by dreamer05

I always giggle when people blast through an MMO at ridiculous speed and then wonder why they're getting tired of it.  Get a hobby, pick up a book, go outside.  A part time job maybe?  People who spend 60 hours a week playing an MMO are experiencing something called 'burning out'.  Take it a little slow, enjoy the game. 

 

Dang, brutal, see how fanboys quickly through pervious fans under the bus.

Dark Pony let me be the first to welcome you to the REAL dark side.

Hehe, I'm not much of a "hater" though if that's what you mean. Like others reasoned; this game can in fact be turned around for a great deal. There's vast potential to be uncovered if they address a few crucial points. Not only by additional development but also simply shift around some mechanics here and there.

Even relatively simple things like adding endgame crafting incentives to the worlds rather than bop and flashpoint related only, making world pvp kills meaningful and adding shared questing objectives on each world, putting the pvp quest box in the middle of the cantina, etc., etc.

I agree with you that the basics are good, I too enjoy the story of my chars and levelling a lot. And I also agree, it would not be so difficult to change or add things to make it much better in terms of longevity. However, I am kinda reluctant to believe, because if they did not add it by now, why should they make it now? They had years and tons of money. And they have defended their decision always with "their better vision" against EVERY critique.

And still, they acted as if SWTOR was the first MMO ever, as if we never had seen things implemented better. Why did they not learn from these MMOs? Why did they make themselves blind to all things that worked well in other MMOs? I don't understand that. Is it arrogance? Or stupidity? I don't get it why they failed to copy the most working and succesful and simple elements from ANY other MMO.

Originally posted by Snaylor47

Originally posted by Vhaln

Those three games advertise a different type of endgame.  From eachother, and from WoW/Rift/TOR.

 

I don't know how true it'll turn out to be, but I don't think the problem is lack endgame content, so much as type of endgame content, or endgame content diversity.  Which is to say, those game may not offer more content, but will hopefully appeal to players who want a different sort of endgame.  Even if it is similarly light at release.

GW2 all in all has no end game, its PvP from what I can tell is a lot like SWTOR's is now (Anyone can do it and everyone is thrown in at level 10-50) with the exception of endgame WPvP for SWTOR, heavily casual in that it takes the same amount of time to get from 10-11 as it does 54-55.  People will level find that there is less end game then even SWTOR and leave.

The difference is that in GW2's structured PvP, everyone, level 1 or 80 will have the EXACT same abilities and stats available to them.  It is completely fair in a leveling sense.  A level 80 character has no advantages over a level 1.

TSW and AA are sandbox games, AA from the looks of it seems to be a little like WoW  combat wise save for the combo system and it being a sandbox (With no major IP attacht) means that its more then likely to go at best the way of EvE.

AA is a sandbox/themepark hybrid, and from what I've learned, TSW is kind of like a themepark/adventure-game hybrid.

Don't know all to much about TSW.

 

But as I said before if TOR and RIFT do not (In a year or so) have a good solid playing base of 1mil+ and 300k+ respectivly then the MMO genre is fucked IMO and no game will be able to ever again get over a million subs.

How do you figure?  Just look at the legion of games that plummeted in subs before SWTOR and Rift came out...MMORPG genre is still trucking on.

Originally posted by gervaise1

Originally posted by OkhamsRazor

Originally posted by WikingDK

The same story always. Every game have it. People rush to max level, and then complai. The game is a few months old, and off course the game have to devolope over time. 

Why is you allready lvl 50? maybe enjoy the game instead. Take some days off sometimes.

I have played since launch, and I just dinged 20 today. 

 

Grats so did I :) I've had it since just after christmas . I've played for two- three hours a day . I think maybe some of the problem with getting to level 50 that quickly is not everyone has been in a huge rush so you dont have lots of people at max level to play the end game with .

I cant help feelng what people would have thought when they got to max level in Vanilla WoW in month one . There were two battlegrounds available and a handful of endgame instances .

They would have been in a similar boat .

I think the point is not that 'powerlevelers' have hit 50 quickly i.e. in 3 days it is the fact that lots of people have hit 50 already. The 'average players' are hitting 50 well before the end of the first month. Indeed I find it ironic that there were people who would say "people shouldn't rush, I have taken my time and have only hit 35 on my main and 20s on my alts ..... after 2 weeks. And that's without people twinking their characters etc. - usually leveling gets faster as people get to grips with the game etc.

Now level 20 from .... EGA? .... is pretty slow imo but that's OK as well. As long as the game is fun. (In EQ1 level 20 could take a year so if you want slow leveling .........)

 

And if you feel the need to bring up WoW at leats be accurate and check out the patch history.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Patch_0.6

Blackrock Spire, Stratholme, Wintersprings, Scholomance, Eastern and Western Plaguelands (Andorhal), Onyxia and Molten Core were all in before launch. And the first content update in December (so prior to the EU launch) added Maraudon. Scarlet Monastery, Blackfathom Deeps, Gnomeregan, Uldaman, Sunken Temple, Razorfen Downs were in as well. Plus a host of other stuff.

I was there - one of the first 60 necros on our server - and without knocking SWTOR can say with absolute certainty that WoW had more day 1 content than SWTOR. (And the content kept coming).

Why are you listing instances that are nothing to do with the endgame in vanilla WoW ???? Think you missed the point of my post and went off on one on what you thought was said .

I'd agree though Vanilla WoW was far superior to StarWars ToR but in the initial month the endgame was pretty limited .The content did indeed keep coming and it may with ToR . I wish the content that kept coming had been upto the standard of those first two or three years .

Originally posted by Elikal

However, I am kinda reluctant to believe, because if they did not add it by now, why should they make it now? 

Time?

SWTOR was in development for 5 n 1/2 years WoW, WAR and RIFT all around the same time frame.

TOR has done more with its development time then any other MMO in history...

Originally posted by tank017

When it comes down to it,putting 'haters' and 'fanbois' aside..

I think we all really wanted this game to do well,it was so largely hyped and everyone is dying to get an MMO they can REALLY sink their teeth into,whens the last one where you actually COULD?.But once the curtain fell and we bit in,it yet again,fell short of a lot of our expectations.Some realised this early and became 'haters' to those who actually do like ToR and to those who maybe just didnt want to admit it or didnt realise right away that the game is just another flash in the pan.

 

I know I feel let down and am becoming ever more hesitant about future MMO's (GW2,AA,TSW, et al) will any of them ever live up to their hype? Im really beginning to lose hope that they actually will :(

No, none of them will live up to the hype. Nothing ever does, and when the hype goes on for years how can a game possibly live up to what we're manipulated into wanting it to be - and hype/advertising/call it what you will is manipulation. It's like Xmas, once you're past the age of 8 or whatever the best part of it is the anticipation - and that's what we're sold long before these games are even close to release.

Anyway, my point is you don't have to lose hope, you just have to manage your own expectations. None of those games will be what we think they're going to be, but that doesn't mean they won't be fun for what they are. And for as long as they're fun for.

Game lost it's appeal for me within the first weekend.   Maybe i'm just burned out with MMO's, i dunno but the constant running around go kill 10 of these, get back, only to get send back where you came from to deliever something, it's just plain boring.  And to the OP, i guess if you reach 50 and have nothing to do, i could pretty much understand how boring the game has become to you.    Devs need to think outside the box, we've been playing these games  for almost 10 years now, we need something new and not just the same old, same old only with a new paint on it.

Originally posted by Aguitha

Game lost it's appeal for me within the first weekend.   Maybe i'm just burned out with MMO's, i dunno but the constant running around go kill 10 of these, get back, only to get send back where you came from to deliever something, it's just plain boring.  And to the OP, i guess if you reach 50 and have nothing to do, i could pretty much understand how boring the game has become to you.    Devs need to think outside the box, we've been playing these games  for almost 10 years now, we need something new and not just the same old, same old only with a new paint on it.

How would you change it?

I've been thinking about how fed up I am with the kill x quests. The conclusion I have is it's not the kill x quests that's the problem but the whole combat system widely adapted in the genre. If fighting was fun then fighting is what you want to do. If there's a counter up in the corner then it shouldn't matter, because killing things would be fun. .. the fact is it isn't. I can only contribute that to a boring combat system.