Originally posted by yewsef

Originally posted by Takiton

Originally posted by Robsolf

What many others have said.

Also, they provide ingame incentives for using a security key/phone app.  I don't know of any other game that does this.

rift did it last year and i hope all mmo's do from now on.

 

BTW, this whole thread is flawed... MMO's are now a matured Genre - GET OVER IT.  Every game doesn't have to have something new.  You don't see hordes of people complaining about the latest FPS games not including new mount/gun room/random feature.  FPS won't add anything new but only put out new content with a few tweaked features.  (more guns, weapon mods, abilities, etc)

 

 

No, you get over it.

This genre that you claim to be MMORPG has nothing to do with what I signed up for. I am still waiting for a game that plays like MMORPGs pre-2004, okay?

I have the rights to complain until I get a game that plays different than those shallow (designed for simple minded people) games CLAIMED to be "MMORPGs".

 

THAT kind of MMORPG has "matured" yes and has been litering the market with a lot of titles. Good for you.

It's either we agree to call this WoWish genre "MMORPG" then we come up with a different name of what MMORPGs used to be pre WoW.... or you come up with a name for your WoWish shallow excuse of entertainment genre.

You know what, I will call these kind of games (WoW + Rift + SWTOR) Banana... that's the Genre name. You're playing Banana, I'm still waiting for a good AAA MMORPG title. Got sick of Bananas already.

 

So tell me this... why must you come here and insult others just because you're unhappy or don't like a game? Saying that these games are now made for "simple minded" people is an insult to those of us who enjoy them. Do you feel better making others feel bad? Why can't you just say "I dont' care for the game, so I'm not playing it", and move on. 

And sorry to say.. you're going to be waiting awhile for your game. Ya know why no one is making games that played like before 2004? Cause the casual players don't want those types of games anymore. They were grindfest. We don't have time for it. We have famiies and jobs and consequently.... we rule the market. So bascially. It's a great time to be a casual gamer. I personally couldn't be happier right now. I have TOR and the FFXIV version 2 right around the corner in August. 

What you will have to realize is that the games are targeting us casual players... you know, the "simple minded" ones. The fact is, these people that sit on these games for 10-12 hours a day are a dying bread. They complain to much, they cancel to much and trash games on forums to much. No company could ever keep them happy, so they just ignore them. 

Some of you will never have fun in an MMO again... I feel sad for you.... not happy.

Originally posted by Praetalus

Originally posted by DarkPony

100% different is very difficult to say but there's plenty of things it does differently from most other mmorpgs

- Companions: not only fighting for you but having a story and a voice, crafting for you, selling your grey items, having an affection stat, able to be decked out in any gear of the right kind, etc. i.e. the most fleshed out companion system in a mmorpg I ever played. (Even though I disliked the idea of needing to use companions before I played SWTOR I can only admit that it really works and is a very fun aspect).

- Itemization: gear inheriting stats from mods rather than fixed parameters (in the case of modable items) allows for a lot of customization and doesn't render your customizable gear obsolete.

- Crafting and re-engineering; to discover higher tiered versions of those recipes as well as having procs on individual crafting products adds a lot of depth and specialization to crafting.

- The extent of voice over content and story: biggest entertainment product ever made with this many lines of VO: no other mmorpg so far, not even movies, even comes close to that.

- Exploring for stat increases: datacrons & matrix cubes. And how some of them are hidden is simply brilliant world design.

- A space shooter minigame / alternative to fishing :P

- Vast amount of pve content; not only flashpoints (normal, hard mode and nightmare mode), bonus quests, dailies, EXTENSIVE individual class quest lines, operations but also hundreds of heroic quests; fun, mini dungeons intended for multiple players out in the worlds.

The last one might be the least outstanding compared to other games but there have been so many releases in the past years where the content simply wasn't enough. SWTOR is stepping up to that (even though it needs more and better fleshed out pvp content).

Thank you Dark, you took the words out of my mouth with the companions and crafting. This is new. I've played every god damn MMO since Ultima and Eq1 and I've never seen a comparable companion or crafting system. 

 

So there. There's your one thing new. Go away. 

Sorry, a space shooter minigame as an alternative to fishing is the "hook" that might draw me into SWTOR afterall. 

But thank you to DarkPony and a couple of other folks that actually answered the OP's (albeit baiting) question with some actual innovative features instead of screaming "look at the troll, I'm not going to feed him anything"

I feel better about SWTOR after reading this thread.

Originally posted by pmiles

I don't know of any other MMORPG that places your character in voice over cinematics.  You could be naked and start the cinematic and be there naked talking to the NPCs, fighting some evil do-er, whatnot.  .

Hell, the original Guild Wars did this seven years ago. What would be funny is if you got in a cut scene and a random mob attacked you... you'd see the mob pounding on you while you're merrily chatting away. Your entire party would be in the cut scene with you as well.

I think that blaming certain people and calling them "haters" isn't the right thing. They are bitter and angry yes, but its totally understandable. People complain that oldschool MMOs like EvE and EQ were jobs, well imagine you had a job you liked so much you would pay to do it, and then the company got rid of that job and every job you had thereafter was boring and simplistic and easy and it just drove you insane. Don't you think you would be bitter?

I don't think its good to trash casuals who grew up and don't have time anymore, or kids who never really got into MMOs before WoW. But I understand why it happens and I just ignore it if I don't wanna deal with it at the moment.

I don't even consider WoW gen MMOs to be MMOs, but they can still be great games. Imagine if you only had an hour every day or 2 to play games. The Bioware style storylines would probably be much more awesome if you didn't max out a character a week with 60 gameplay hours.

SWTOR actually is pushing more and more single player type gameplay, like the companions with story arcs and having your decisions affect the heavily instanced linear story line, as oppossed to the way MMOs were supposed to be. And I mean, its Bioware, so what did you expect?

I think it might be more productive for oldschool gamers, and even newer ones or casuals, to look at SWTOR as a more of a superior product to standard Bioware titles, rather than a step down from a virtual world. Its designed, whether you think it succeeds or not is besides the point, to be a normal Bioware RPG but with an online coop component and then some larger multiplayer aspects like battle grounds.

If you look at it that way instead of through the lens of ruining the mmorpg genre even more than WoW, it might be easier to understand why other people really like it and why playing it doesn't make you dumb, or a bad person.

Originally posted by Nykyrian

Curious, and i'm talking about a broad veiw i'm not looking for little things like light sabers i mean something completely new... that has never been done or created before.  And before u say voice over quests derp, every mmorpg now a days has a story   

Go?.

Nothing exists in a vacuum so I doubt there's anything that is 100% new.

Originally posted by yewsef

Originally posted by leojreimroc

I'm curious, do people hate this much when new FPS games come out?  I don't follow those games, but do people rant for "new" things when a new CoD comes out?  Are those games innovative in any way?

 

I don't think they do.

The thing is.. you don't get it.

I love RTS and I enjoy every new title because every new title is an RTS. Same for FPS, every new title is an FPS.

 

For MMORPGs... every new title is a piece of shit (and not an MMORPG). If you've been playing MMORPGs prior to 2000 then you would understand. If not, then it's HARD for us to explain our frustration.

MMORPGs been rendered to one standardized system (a.k.a WoWish) and that kind of game design is stupid and in many ways doesn't make the game an MMORPG.

 

We are not disatisfied because of the new MMORPGs titles... we are dissatisfied because there are NO MMORPG title despite their attmept to market them as so.

 

Make sense?

 

To leojreimroc:
Actually alot of people hate on MW3 because it's the same recycled game in its what, 4th or 5th iteration now? But, alot of FPS games have directly brought innovation to other genres (CTF, Control point based objectives). Ask any FPS gamer, the differences between the BF series, CS, and MW are drastically different gameplay wise even though the concept on paper may appear to be the same. The same can be said for RTS.

To yewsef:
Completely agree, lobby based gaming is NOT an MMORPG. Instancing (PvP/PvE, dungeon finders (LFG/LFR), cross server grouping) completely destroys community which is a major foundation of the MMO genre.  Sure, WoW has brought some innovation but has also caused a great deal of stagnation as well and companies need to distance themselves from this for it to progress. 

Easy to answer thread, you can play through all the missions just as a dedicated healer.

Originally posted by Cuathon

I think that blaming certain people and calling them "haters" isn't the right thing. They are bitter and angry yes, but its totally understandable. People complain that oldschool MMOs like EvE and EQ were jobs, well imagine you had a job you liked so much you would pay to do it, and then the company got rid of that job and every job you had thereafter was boring and simplistic and easy and it just drove you insane. Don't you think you would be bitter?

I don't think its good to trash casuals who grew up and don't have time anymore, or kids who never really got into MMOs before WoW. But I understand why it happens and I just ignore it if I don't wanna deal with it at the moment.

I don't even consider WoW gen MMOs to be MMOs, but they can still be great games. Imagine if you only had an hour every day or 2 to play games. The Bioware style storylines would probably be much more awesome if you didn't max out a character a week with 60 gameplay hours.

SWTOR actually is pushing more and more single player type gameplay, like the companions with story arcs and having your decisions affect the heavily instanced linear story line, as oppossed to the way MMOs were supposed to be. And I mean, its Bioware, so what did you expect?

I think it might be more productive for oldschool gamers, and even newer ones or casuals, to look at SWTOR as a more of a superior product to standard Bioware titles, rather than a step down from a virtual world. Its designed, whether you think it succeeds or not is besides the point, to be a normal Bioware RPG but with an online coop component and then some larger multiplayer aspects like battle grounds.

If you look at it that way instead of through the lens of ruining the mmorpg genre even more than WoW, it might be easier to understand why other people really like it and why playing it doesn't make you dumb, or a bad person.

Give me your definition of an MMO please...

As for people saying these games coming out aren't MMO's, what are you basing this on? That's like me not liking a certain type of car and when it comes out... I say, well, the new Honda is not actually a car. It's four wheels and powered by a motor, but I don't like it, so it's not really a car. 

Massively - A large amount of people - Larger then what is typical. So what's typical? I think it's safe to say that even 100 people in the general area is pretty massive in terms of typical, especially if typical can be seen as one group, which would be typical for a multiplayer game. Ok.... so we have massive.

Multi-player - Ok... this one's pretty easy. I don't think I even have to go further.

Online game - Again, done and done. Of course it's online. 

They seem to pass the criteara in my opinion at least... 

Originally posted by yewsef

Originally posted by leojreimroc

I'm curious, do people hate this much when new FPS games come out?  I don't follow those games, but do people rant for "new" things when a new CoD comes out?  Are those games innovative in any way?

 

I don't think they do.

The thing is.. you don't get it.

I love RTS and I enjoy every new title because every new title is an RTS. Same for FPS, every new title is an FPS.

 

For MMORPGs... every new title is a piece of shit (and not an MMORPG). If you've been playing MMORPGs prior to 2000 then you would understand. If not, then it's HARD for us to explain our frustration.

MMORPGs been rendered to one standardized system (a.k.a WoWish) and that kind of game design is stupid and in many ways doesn't make the game an MMORPG.

 

We are not disatisfied because of the new MMORPGs titles... we are dissatisfied because there are NO MMORPG title despite their attmept to market them as so.

 

Make sense?

 

No, it doesn't make sense, because its simply not true.  I started in UO (I don't know how I missed Meridian but sadly enough I did) and then once EQ launched I ran to it and never looked back.   It was the original themepark and I loved it.  Tried SWG at launch and hated it, I felt like many sandbox fans feel about TOR that it was a piece of crap game.  Just because you don't like themeparks doesn't make them less of a mmorpg.  It simply doesn't.  It seems that there are no non-sandbox mmorpgs.  That's fine for you to think that, you can think whatever you want, but that doesn't make it true.  Its like saying there haven't been any true FPS games since Wolfenstein 3D or Doom.

Originally posted by niceguy3978

Originally posted by yewsef

Originally posted by leojreimroc

I'm curious, do people hate this much when new FPS games come out?  I don't follow those games, but do people rant for "new" things when a new CoD comes out?  Are those games innovative in any way?

 

I don't think they do.

The thing is.. you don't get it.

I love RTS and I enjoy every new title because every new title is an RTS. Same for FPS, every new title is an FPS.

 

For MMORPGs... every new title is a piece of shit (and not an MMORPG). If you've been playing MMORPGs prior to 2000 then you would understand. If not, then it's HARD for us to explain our frustration.

MMORPGs been rendered to one standardized system (a.k.a WoWish) and that kind of game design is stupid and in many ways doesn't make the game an MMORPG.

 

We are not disatisfied because of the new MMORPGs titles... we are dissatisfied because there are NO MMORPG title despite their attmept to market them as so.

 

Make sense?

 

No, it doesn't make sense, because its simply not true.  I started in UO (I don't know how I missed Meridian but sadly enough I did) and then once EQ launched I ran to it and never looked back.   It was the original themepark and I loved it.  Tried SWG at launch and hated it, I felt like many sandbox fans feel about TOR that it was a piece of crap game.  Just because you don't like themeparks doesn't make them less of a mmorpg.  It simply doesn't.  It seems that there are no non-sandbox mmorpgs.  That's fine for you to think that, you can think whatever you want, but that doesn't make it true.  Its like saying there haven't been any true FPS games since Wolfenstein 3D or Doom.

I wouldn't try to argue with this one nice.. he's arguing out of pure emotion and very little logic. I mean really... who likes EVERY RTS that comes out, just because it's an RTS...LOL  - That's simply absurd. That's like saying I like stand up comedy... so naturely, I'll like every comedian. 

And also... I asked this in another post, but please define MMO for me? 

Originally posted by Praetalus

Originally posted by Cuathon

I think that blaming certain people and calling them "haters" isn't the right thing. They are bitter and angry yes, but its totally understandable. People complain that oldschool MMOs like EvE and EQ were jobs, well imagine you had a job you liked so much you would pay to do it, and then the company got rid of that job and every job you had thereafter was boring and simplistic and easy and it just drove you insane. Don't you think you would be bitter?

I don't think its good to trash casuals who grew up and don't have time anymore, or kids who never really got into MMOs before WoW. But I understand why it happens and I just ignore it if I don't wanna deal with it at the moment.

I don't even consider WoW gen MMOs to be MMOs, but they can still be great games. Imagine if you only had an hour every day or 2 to play games. The Bioware style storylines would probably be much more awesome if you didn't max out a character a week with 60 gameplay hours.

SWTOR actually is pushing more and more single player type gameplay, like the companions with story arcs and having your decisions affect the heavily instanced linear story line, as oppossed to the way MMOs were supposed to be. And I mean, its Bioware, so what did you expect?

I think it might be more productive for oldschool gamers, and even newer ones or casuals, to look at SWTOR as a more of a superior product to standard Bioware titles, rather than a step down from a virtual world. Its designed, whether you think it succeeds or not is besides the point, to be a normal Bioware RPG but with an online coop component and then some larger multiplayer aspects like battle grounds.

If you look at it that way instead of through the lens of ruining the mmorpg genre even more than WoW, it might be easier to understand why other people really like it and why playing it doesn't make you dumb, or a bad person.

Give me your definition of an MMO please...

 

As for people saying these games coming out aren't MMO's, what are you basing this on? That's like me not liking a certain type of car and when it comes out... I say, well, the new Honda is not actually a car. It's four wheels and powered by a motor, but I don't like it, so it's not really a car. 

 Tank, that is all. Actually not all. I just fucking said in the post you quoted that modern mmos are awesome games and I like to and have played them. But you couldn't be bothered to read the damn post.

Massively - A large amount of people - Larger then what is typical. So what's typical? I think it's safe to say that even 100 people in the general area is pretty massive in terms of typical, especially if typical can be seen as one group, which would be typical for a multiplayer game. Ok.... so we have massive.

 Its just my personal opinion, thats why I said I don't think and not just, not an mmo.

Massively multiplayer. In what multiplayer games prior to mmos did we have players who didn't either work together or work against each other? You may have 5000 people on a server, but what common large coordinated actions are there?

EvE is an mmo because, duh. A Tale in the Desert is an MMO because they had large common concurrent actions like Acro parties and Digs and unlocking new science. Shadowbane is another duh as is DAoC. Ultima isn't so clear cut, but even just the house spam had a massive effect on other players' experience, and there are similar examples. Everquest is similar to Ultima but is moving further away from MMO territory. It was barely an MMO.

I would say that WoW and GW were the earliest games heading for coop. GW was even purposely designed as coop with lobby cities and an 8 man cap.

Multi-player - Ok... this one's pretty easy. I don't think I even have to go further.

 

Online game - Again, done and done. Of course it's online. 

 

They seem to pass the criteara in my opinion at least... 

You totally missed the point of the post. Yes, lets focus on the least important part. But I shall answer anyways because I am bored. In any case it is relative. Some people disagree on what is an MMO.

I was only trying to say that if one looked at SWTOR coming from the direction of single player it was a real achievement. If I had the money even knowing all the complaints about it, I would buy it and play it for a couple hundred hours at least. Of course for me that means only subbing for one month  :)

---

Originally posted by DarkPony

100% different is very difficult to say but there's plenty of things it does differently from most other mmorpgs

- Itemization: gear inheriting stats from mods rather than fixed parameters (in the case of modable items) allows for a lot of customization and doesn't render your customizable gear obsolete.

---

Just want to point out that Guild Wars used the same system, all gear had stats applied by Runes and Insignia, weapons, shields and focus items had different enhancements slots too (Axe heft and Axe grip as an example), pretty much the same system except simpler and more accessible.

Originally posted by Praetalus

Give me your definition of an MMO please...

 

As for people saying these games coming out aren't MMO's, what are you basing this on? That's like me not liking a certain type of car and when it comes out... I say, well, the new Honda is not actually a car. It's four wheels and powered by a motor, but I don't like it, so it's not really a car. 

 

Massively - A large amount of people - Larger then what is typical. So what's typical? I think it's safe to say that even 100 people in the general area is pretty massive in terms of typical, especially if typical can be seen as one group, which would be typical for a multiplayer game. Ok.... so we have massive.

 

Multi-player - Ok... this one's pretty easy. I don't think I even have to go further.

 

Online game - Again, done and done. Of course it's online. 

 

They seem to pass the criteara in my opinion at least... 

I can do this too:

Battlefield 3

Massively - 64 Players on one server at any given time

Multiplayer - Yep

Online Game - Requires connection to the internet for multiplayer.

Terraria

Massively - Up to 255 Players

Multiplayer - Yep

Online Game - Yep

RPG - Yep

But are these MMORPGs? Nope.

I think the point here is not "whether the game is considered an MMO" more than "why is the game an MMO?"

You don't need to group: Check

If you do group, its with 3 other people: Check

Even raiding is done with a relatively small amount of people. Why not just enter a dungeon, PvP battleground, raid, browse the auction house from a webpage? I think this is the point.

Originally posted by Nykyrian

Curious, and i'm talking about a broad veiw i'm not looking for little things like light sabers i mean something completely new... that has never been done or created before.  And before u say voice over quests derp, every mmorpg now a days has a story   

Go?.

LOL thank you for that last part because they would certainly all say OMG VO like it's the bestest thing since candy or something.

Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Originally posted by Nykyrian

Curious, and i'm talking about a broad veiw i'm not looking for little things like light sabers i mean something completely new... that has never been done or created before.  And before u say voice over quests derp, every mmorpg now a days has a story   

Go?.

However Nykyrian, I'd like to point out that NO ONE has ever claimed that SWTOR does anything new. It's just a rehersed fully voiced version of WoW set in the StarWars universe. NOTHING new, and has NEVER been claimed to be new.

 

Additionally, everyone I know who was "Raving" about SWTOR has now quit. So I'm not sure how well SWTOR will do by June.

Actually that's not true, SWTOR was touted and advertised as a next gen mmo, claiming that it was better then the rest because of the VO and the questline changes and the changes to gathering/crafting but i think we can all agree now that it's launched despite three things different it's still more of the same, definitely not next gen.

Originally posted by Naqaj

One thing that TOR does 100% new:

Drive haters to make really useless and increasingly stupid posts about how it's a bad game.

actually his post wasn't a hate post, it was an honest question and deserves an honest answer. {mod edit}

Originally posted by Ikeda

It has a bug where it shrinks a certain NPC.

It doesn't let you search the Auction House unless you first give it a make and model.

What are you looking for?  It's a game.  The 8000000000 call of duties are hardly more innovative than the original Wolfenstein.  Either play and enjoy the game, or don't.  Not every game has to be new, or eye popping, or dazzling.  It's a story that is fun.  While it may not be a WoW ( and certainly we can all agree that WoW sized MMOs are the exception and not the rule) it is fun in its own rights.

actually yeah it does have to be new because in the long run, it's boring. and your reasoning behind the call of duties is EXACTLY the reason why i don't ever play FPS games, stand there and shoot in a straight line while some nerdrage is screamed into the mic by a douche somewhere is never fun. 

SWTOR was touted just like Rift was, as a next gen mmo, that means they claimed they had features no one else had and that they were changing the gaming world with these features, it's not unreasonable for someone who plays the game to answer the OP's question honestly. What makes it a next gen mmo? What's never been done before?

Originally posted by itgrowls

Originally posted by Naqaj

One thing that TOR does 100% new:

Drive haters to make really useless and increasingly stupid posts about how it's a bad game.

actually his post wasn't a hate post, it was an honest question and deserves an honest answer. If he had claimed that it wasn't a good game in the OP then you can troll about it but he didn't he deserves a good answer even from you.

Well if you want a real answer... companions, a good story with an interesting plot and acrobatic/pretty combat.

That's truly what they did different.  Does the OP want that answer?  From his tone.. no.

Originally posted by MattNe

Originally posted by Nykyrian

Curious, and i'm talking about a broad veiw i'm not looking for little things like light sabers i mean something completely new... that has never been done or created before.  And before u say voice over quests derp, every mmorpg now a days has a story   

Go?.

I'll takle the bait,

 

There is nothing new...but...I challenge you to give me 1 new or different game...not since the 90's has there been a 'new' or 'different' MMO.

keep watching, GW2 is coming. :)

Originally posted by kalmah

Originally posted by Praetalus

Give me your definition of an MMO please...

 

As for people saying these games coming out aren't MMO's, what are you basing this on? That's like me not liking a certain type of car and when it comes out... I say, well, the new Honda is not actually a car. It's four wheels and powered by a motor, but I don't like it, so it's not really a car. 

 

Massively - A large amount of people - Larger then what is typical. So what's typical? I think it's safe to say that even 100 people in the general area is pretty massive in terms of typical, especially if typical can be seen as one group, which would be typical for a multiplayer game. Ok.... so we have massive.

 

Multi-player - Ok... this one's pretty easy. I don't think I even have to go further.

 

Online game - Again, done and done. Of course it's online. 

 

They seem to pass the criteara in my opinion at least... 

I can do this too:

Battlefield 3

Massively - 64 Players on one server at any given time

Multiplayer - Yep

Online Game - Requires connection to the internet for multiplayer.

 

Terraria

Massively - Up to 255 Players

Multiplayer - Yep

Online Game - Yep

RPG - Yep

But are these MMORPGs? Nope.

 

I think the point here is not "whether the game is considered an MMO" more than "why is the game an MMO?"

You don't need to group: Check

If you do group, its with 3 other people: Check

Even raiding is done with a relatively small amount of people. Why not just enter a dungeon, PvP battleground, raid, browse the auction house from a webpage? I think this is the point.

This is somewhat of what I mean. Just because you can theoretically check some boxes on a list doesn't mean the spirit is the same. Games cross genre lines by taking mechanics from other games all the time. No matter how specific I make the criteria you can probably argue that this or that game is or is not an MMO.

The thing about formal logic is that its still based on assumptions at the start.

All trees are ladders. All ladders are cows. Therefore all trees are cows.

That is logically flawless, but it is clearly not true. When you start from different assumptions logic isn't going to bring you together to a conclusion.

There is a similar argument in music about what is punk and what isn't. Pop punk isn't really following the intention of punk. I love pop punk, but pop punk is sort of viewed as the privileged rich kids who parts and get drunk and sleep around and do the whole appearance thing with like green highlights or a faxuhawk and think they are rebels, where punk originated as a working class expression of rage and unfairness and a drive to throw off mainstream middle class culture.

Pop punkers looked at that and liked it because they felt oppressed and the music resonated, but they could afford to listened to produced bands and they didn't actually want to give up their middle class privilege so their music was more about teenage angst and drama as opposed to dealing with wage slavery and not being able to do the things that compromised the middleclass ideal. Sending your kids to college? Maybe if you gave up your whole life to do it and sent them to a state school.

Spending multiple hours a day training your character, seriously role playing, using your imagination, changing the world and such was the ideal. IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE TIME INTENSIVE. Casuals came in and they were just looking for some quick fun, maybe an hour or two a day. And thats perfectly okay, but its not what the spirit of MMORPGs were about.

Did you ever read a book and imagine you were a character and run through entire adventures in your head for hours, even after the story was over you would keep going back and making your own. That was what mmorpgs were supposed to be.

Modern games aren't bad. For the goal they seek they do it quite well. But the spirit isn't the same.